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post #101 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by philomom View Post
I have a family friend who has a regular part on a soap opera. His mother "made him" get a business degree so that if acting didn't work out.. he could feed himself somehow. He doesn't resent her or regret his college education one iota. He finished college, moved to L.A., got a job waiting tables and went to early morning auditions until he landed his good role.
That's nice for him and his family. DS1 doesn't want to go to college, and I see no reason to make him. He can feed himself without a degree. DH is supporting a family of six, in a high COL area (very high - Vancouver recently topped the list for housing, based on a ratio of benchmark housing price to median income). Will he be able to live the high life, or even buy a house? Probably not. But, that's not the issue at hand. He wants to act.

I suppose I could make him get a business degree, but I can't imagine a single way ds1 could pay the bills with a business degree without being stifled as a person. Me? Maybe (although I doubt it - the entry level work I've done was okay, but most of the higher level business stuff would drive me around the bend). DS1? No way.

ETA: Okay. DH pointed out that ds1 could probably do very well in sales. So, there is one area of the business world where he wouldn't psychologically suffocate. My bad.
post #102 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar View Post
Really, if you like academia, or have your heart set on a job that requires a bachelors degree, then go for it. Otherise, though, why not get out in the world and do something? And then go back, if need be...
This. My mom went to university straight out of high school. She was going to be a teacher. For personal reasons, she ended up dropping it. She went back in her mid-30s, and finshed her degree when she was about my age (I'm 41 - she was either 42 or 43). She took a business degree, because she'd also realized that she was not cut out for teaching at all. She's done very well for herself since she took that degree, but if she'd finished her original bachelor, it would have been a wall decoration, and not much else.
post #103 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
That's nice for him and his family. DS1 doesn't want to go to college, and I see no reason to make him. He can feed himself without a degree. DH is supporting a family of six, in a high COL area (very high - Vancouver recently topped the list for housing, based on a ratio of benchmark housing price to median income). Will he be able to live the high life, or even buy a house? Probably not. But, that's not the issue at hand. He wants to act.

I suppose I could make him get a business degree, but I can't imagine a single way ds1 could pay the bills with a business degree without being stifled as a person. Me? Maybe (although I doubt it - the entry level work I've done was okay, but most of the higher level business stuff would drive me around the bend). DS1? No way.

ETA: Okay. DH pointed out that ds1 could probably do very well in sales. So, there is one area of the business world where he wouldn't psychologically suffocate. My bad.
To be honest, in Hollywood North, I think he can probably make enough to live off of by acting, and there are more then a few places that can get him started. That being said, there are community colleges in the are that also offer 1 year certificates that can help get a job that pays really well that aren't business. There are also schools that offer degrees in theater and film. The best thing that is for is connections.
post #104 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
This. My mom went to university straight out of high school. She was going to be a teacher. For personal reasons, she ended up dropping it. She went back in her mid-30s, and finshed her degree when she was about my age (I'm 41 - she was either 42 or 43). She took a business degree, because she'd also realized that she was not cut out for teaching at all. She's done very well for herself since she took that degree, but if she'd finished her original bachelor, it would have been a wall decoration, and not much else.
Actually, It might have made it easier. Many places don't give a rats but babout what type of degree. They just want that degree. If she would have had a teaching degree it would have been easier for her to get into a business office then get a masters or another degree in business.

I wanted to be a teacher. I am not cut out for teaching other people's children but that degree would have open so many doors. Right now, that degree would be at least a 5000 pay difference for the company I work with. Actually it would have most likely been closer to 10000 when I started 2-3 years ago.

Most people get a degree other than the feild they end up in.
post #105 of 176
Well, hindsight is pretty much 20/20.

Honestly, I think it comes down to the individual. Coming from a long line of medical professionals and business people, higher education was always very valued in our family. Despite this, there were some inequities. My parents were very supportive of my "talents," but when I went to art school, they acquiesced for the simple reason that I would "get married and have a husband to support me." My brother, on the other hand, wanted to pursue theology, but they strongly requested that he also go to trade school. He's not a theologian now, but a highly compensated union electrician. I got a masters in fine arts and went to law school when I was 36 years old. As an artist, I was totally poor, but I wasn't unhappy. Life has a funny way of playing out. Brother and I both had dreams in the beginning, now we do something different. That being said, I don't think either of us regret our prior education. In fact, it is an integral part of who we are.

Someone previously said something about brainwashing. That wasn't my case. College provided me with a much different view than I previously been exposed to. Maybe it was because I majored in the arts. Creativity wasn't discouraged (like in high school) but encouraged and applauded. It was subject to professional critique. I'll never regret the intellectual exposure that my art history and art professors gave me.

I don't think that kids of my generation were told that advanced degrees equal happiness. I think that perhaps the idea that good grades and college meant that you obtained some sort of security...something that was perhaps very valued by my parents' generation.

With my own DD, I want her to excel at whatever she chooses to do. I don't think I'm alone in this thinking. If that means college, then I totally support her in that quest. If it means something else, then I'll support her also. My goal is to provide her access to the tools she needs to go out on her own and survive.
post #106 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsupialmom View Post
Most people get a degree other than the feild they end up in.
Yes, this is what I've heard as well. This is kind of reassuring to me.
post #107 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsupialmom View Post
I wanted to be a teacher. I am not cut out for teaching other people's children but that degree would have open so many doors. Right now, that degree would be at least a 5000 pay difference for the company I work with. Actually it would have most likely been closer to 10000 when I started 2-3 years ago.
This is SO true! I have a BA from a long time ago, I'm taking classes at community college right now as refreshers, and am starting my master's next year because the pay difference is about 5-8K right off the bat, and more like 15K as time goes on, for an elementary school teacher!
post #108 of 176
Going to college later in life can be easier in some ways. If your 18-year-old didn't know what degree she wanted to do, why not encourage her to work and save for a few years, so that once she knew what she wanted to do she could pay her way through Uni and not incur a massive debt? I paid my way through Uni, starting at 16, and it would have been easier financially if I'd worked full-time for a year or two first. There's nothing to stop someone keeping a nest egg for college even through marriage and having kids if they feel it's important.

Also, I think this economy is really screwing with the good college = good job thing. My BIL went through LAW SCHOOL with very good grades and couldn't get a job for months and months. He finally got a job selling Kirby vacuum cleaners, where he's actually quite happy and makes more than a newbie lawyer could. His law degree didn't help him get the job, and prevented him from getting a bunch of other jobs because he was "overqualified".
post #109 of 176
I guess... I really don't like the idea of college as a hoop to jump through or a trial to endure. I think people should go to college because they want to learn and are interested in the subjects being taught there... or at very least, they want to learn because they can see the relevance of that knowledge to their desired future job. But to go to college for the piece of paper... that rubs me wrong.
post #110 of 176
Quote:
Also, I think this economy is really screwing with the good college = good job thing. My BIL went through LAW SCHOOL with very good grades and couldn't get a job for months and months. He finally got a job selling Kirby vacuum cleaners, where he's actually quite happy and makes more than a newbie lawyer could. His law degree didn't help him get the job, and prevented him from getting a bunch of other jobs because he was "overqualified".
I think a lot of this has to do with what the market can handle. 300 students graduated from my law school class, and that meant that there were potentially 300 more lawyers in the system. I was lucky to be in the right place at the right time with the right skills to get the position I did. However, law schools continue to pump out 300 people per class, how many can get gainful employment? Its crazy. My dad, who is dental professor, noticed the same trend in dental schools. If 200 students per class are pumped out per year, how can the market handle 200 new dentists? If the market is saturated with a profession, it becomes incredibly difficult to gain meaningful employment (i.e. employment that will provide for living expenses as well as student loan costs, if any, and insurance).
post #111 of 176
Quote:
I guess... I really don't like the idea of college as a hopp to jump through or a trial to endure. I think people should go to college because they want to learn and are interested in the subjects being taught there... or at very least, they want to learn because they can see the relevance of that knowledge to their desired future job. But to go to college for the piece of paper... that rubs me wrong.
I totally agree.
post #112 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsupialmom View Post
Actually, It might have made it easier. Many places don't give a rats but babout what type of degree. They just want that degree. If she would have had a teaching degree it would have been easier for her to get into a business office then get a masters or another degree in business.

I wanted to be a teacher. I am not cut out for teaching other people's children but that degree would have open so many doors. Right now, that degree would be at least a 5000 pay difference for the company I work with. Actually it would have most likely been closer to 10000 when I started 2-3 years ago.
She was also pursuing a particular accounting designation, for which an 18 year old arts degree would have been completely and utterly useless. More to the point, it didn't involve any of the knowledge she needed for the work she wanted (and some of what she learned getting her Commerce degree was useful). I've also noticed over the years (most of my work has been in professional offices of various kinds) that this is not that true in the business world. They care about the kind of degree. I've seen liberal arts degrees put a candidate at the bottom of the pile, under people with no post-secondary education at all.

And, honestly, if $5000/year is worth spending four years doing a degree, then it makes sense to do the degree. For me, it's not, and never was. College and university just don't fit for some people. (I always thought I'd want to go back to school when I was older, but it's no more appealing now than it was when I was 18. I could still change my mind one day, but I'm 41 now, so it seems unlikely.)

Quote:
Most people get a degree other than the feild they end up in.
And, that doesn't even make sense to me. I know it's true, because I've heard it many times, but it doesn't make sense to me.
post #113 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramama View Post
This is SO true! I have a BA from a long time ago, I'm taking classes at community college right now as refreshers, and am starting my master's next year because the pay difference is about 5-8K right off the bat, and more like 15K as time goes on, for an elementary school teacher!
Yes, BUT if you start out right out of high school getting a teaching degree, having no idea if you actually want to teach or not, and come out of school with 20000-30000 worth of debt, in some places that is almost a YEAR'S SALARY for what you got.

I personally think that the idea that everyone must go to college gives college very little meaning anymore. Because anyone with a buck can go and demand that they receive an A because they did the work and came to class, whether or not they could make a coherent argument, solve a math problem, or write a complete sentence. And coaching those students takes out too much time for professors who should really be concentrating on the students who WANT to learn and WANT to participate.
post #114 of 176
Oh, and don't even get me STARTED on how underpaid some professions are for the amount of work it takes to get into them. I hate that the whole societal construct is about making money. So so many people have to choose their second choice because they can't make any money doing the first.

I personally would love to study Chaucer and write poetry all day, but without a significant amount more schooling and/or making a name for myself, that is not financially feasible. It doesn't mean I'm not happy. It just means that I only have the time for my vocation that other people make time for their hobbies.
post #115 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by InMediasRes View Post
Because anyone with a buck can go and demand that they receive an A because they did the work and came to class, whether or not they could make a coherent argument, solve a math problem, or write a complete sentence.
That's not how it worked where I went to school.

I came to college with very little "bucks" and received generous scholarships and work-study. I didn't demand my good grades. I worked for them - just as hard as my friends whose parents were able to pay their entire way. Learning to make coherent arguments and write well was an integral part of our education.
post #116 of 176
Quote:
Most people get a degree other than the feild they end up in.
Quote:
And, that doesn't even make sense to me. I know it's true, because I've heard it many times, but it doesn't make sense to me.
It wouldn't make sense to me if someone got a degree in accounting and then ended up becoming a plumber. But then again, more plumbers need better accounting skills...I can say this from personal experience. If there were more plumbers with better accounting skills, we'd see a lot less litigation in the legal world.

If you approach higher education as a "trade school," then yes, it doesn't make sense to pursue one subject and end up in another. I knew a guy who was an art history graduate who became a paper salesman. He sold a lot of paper. Why? Because he could talk about more things than paper. He could engage in conversations that interested his clients. Me, I appreciate talking to well-rounded people.

I don't buy into the concept that education must equal employment in the field in which you were educated. My former boss was educated as a civil engineer and he became a lawyer. He takes his experience as engineer and applies it toward his present profession. He represents engineers and understands their issues. You can approach your education as a piece of paper or you can approach it as a way to better yourself. This, in my opinion, applies to anyone who pursues knowledge, whether or not you use it for a specific, pre-determined task.
post #117 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsCradle View Post
It wouldn't make sense to me if someone got a degree in accounting and then ended up becoming a plumber. But then again, more plumbers need better accounting skills...I can say this from personal experience. If there were more plumbers with better accounting skills, we'd see a lot less litigation in the legal world.

If you approach higher education as a "trade school," then yes, it doesn't make sense to pursue one subject and end up in another. I knew a guy who was an art history graduate who became a paper salesman. He sold a lot of paper. Why? Because he could talk about more things than paper. He could engage in conversations that interested his clients. Me, I appreciate talking to well-rounded people.

I don't buy into the concept that education must equal employment in the field in which you were educated. My former boss was educated as a civil engineer and he became a lawyer. He takes his experience as engineer and applies it toward his present profession. He represents engineers and understands their issues. You can approach your education as a piece of paper or you can approach it as a way to better yourself. This, in my opinion, applies to anyone who pursues knowledge, whether or not you use it for a specific, pre-determined task.
I'm talking about that not makingn sense from the perspective of the question posed in the OP. If people want to go to college out of intellectual interest, that's great. It has nothing to do with the "go to college = make more money" equation.

As for your example of the man who sells paper, I don't even follow it. What does being able to talk about more things than paper have to do with having or not having a degree? What does being well-rounded have to do with having a degree? There are plenty of people with degrees who don't appear to have engaged a brain cell since they finished. There are plenty of well-rounded people without degrees.

I do wonder what you mean in your first paragraph, too. What accounting skills could plumbers acquire that would result in less litigation?
post #118 of 176
Hhmmm. Well, we started our family when we were both going through college/higher education. No insurance, no $$, crappy place to live... all made it difficult. Now that we are through that, and dh has the good job/insurance/house/etc etc... yes, life is easier. Easier does make us happier i guess. But, i don't think you need a master's from a top-notch university- my dh had an associates that he got from a tech school and he's slowly built up his career skills from that.
post #119 of 176
Quote:
I do wonder what you mean in your first paragraph, too. What accounting skills could plumbers acquire that would result in less litigation?
I'm a construction lawyer. Most litigation in construction begins with a construction company's (insert any trade) inability to pay its subcontractors, employees, unions. I stay employed by others' inability to manage their books. Of course there are deeper issues, but generally (in New York) many construction professionals rob Peter to pay Paul. They fall short on one job and use the next job to pay off old debts, when in reality, they should be using the present job to pay present obligations. It is a big issue here and we have statutes to mitigate the problem. Being a good plumber doesn't necessarily make one a good businessman. You don't need college but you do need some sort of training, whether it is handed down via family "education" or you just have a good business sense. You can install the best plumbing fixtures in the universe, but if you can't balance the books, you're company is in big trouble. Of course, this doesn't apply to tradesmen who are satisfied with working by the hour for the boss.

Quote:
As for your example of the man who sells paper, I don't even follow it. What does being able to talk about more things than paper have to do with having or not having a degree? What does being well-rounded have to do with having a degree? There are plenty of people with degrees who don't appear to have engaged a brain cell since they finished. There are plenty of well-rounded people without degrees.
Sorry if I was unclear. I wasn't talking about people who didn't get degrees. I was talking about people who switched fields after obtaining a different degree. Not sure where I inferred that people without degrees aren't well rounded. Was speaking specifically of those people who had changed fields.

I believe you were responding to the following:

Quote:
If you approach higher education as a "trade school," then yes, it doesn't make sense to pursue one subject and end up in another. I knew a guy who was an art history graduate who became a paper salesman. He sold a lot of paper. Why? Because he could talk about more things than paper. He could engage in conversations that interested his clients. Me, I appreciate talking to well-rounded people.
Where was I talking about non-degree holders? Sales guy with an art history degree. Just illustrating that his former degree was not a waste.
post #120 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsCradle View Post
I'm a construction lawyer. Most litigation in construction begins with a construction company's (insert any trade) inability to pay its subcontractors, employees, unions. I stay employed by others' inability to manage their books. Of course there are deeper issues, but generally (in New York) many construction professionals rob Peter to pay Paul. They fall short on one job and use the next job to pay off old debts, when in reality, they should be using the present job to pay present obligations. It is a big issue here and we have statutes to mitigate the problem. Being a good plumber doesn't necessarily make one a good businessman. You don't need college but you do need some sort of training, whether it is handed down via family "education" or you just have a good business sense. You can install the best plumbing fixtures in the universe, but if you can't balance the books, you're company is in big trouble. Of course, this doesn't apply to tradesmen who are satisfied with working by the hour for the boss.
Fair enough. But, that's not what I meant by "accounting". That's basic bookkeeping, and I really think every small businessperson should have at least a basic grasp of it, even if they hire someone else to do the actual books. Of course, I know lots of people who have a solid grasp of both (bookkeeping and accounting) and still rob Peter to pay Paul.

Quote:
Sorry if I was unclear. I wasn't talking about people who didn't get degrees. I was talking about people who switched fields after obtaining a different degree. Not sure where I inferred that people without degrees aren't well rounded. Was speaking specifically of those people who had changed fields.

Where was I talking about non-degree holders? Sales guy with an art history degree. Just illustrating that his former degree was not a waste.
You weren't specifically talking about non-degree holders, but when you juxtapose "a guy who was an art history graduate" with "Because he could talk about more things than paper" in the way that you did, there's a strong implication that he could talk about more things than paper, because he was an art history graduate. Otherwise, I'm not sure what his degree has to do with anything. I still don't see how his degree didn't go to waste in this particular example (aside from any intellectual satisfaction he got from it, which is something else again).
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