I have a GS question/issue too....

[Shellie]

My dd turned 5 in January but we started Kindergarten late last summer. I tried to get her into Daisy scouts for this school year (2009-10) since this is *her* Kindergarten year. I was told by the council that she could join a troop in January when she turns 5 but not before, regardless of what grade I say she's in for our home school.

I was perturbed that she'd have to join a troop mid-year when imho it would have been easier for her to join at the beginning when many of the members would also be new (new area, new schools). I didn't want to make waves so I dropped it--I don't know the official rules but the council's website just says the girl has to be in Kindergarten and nothing related to age.

So, I contacted the council again after her b-day in January and was told that they have no options available for her right now and to contact them again in the fall when school starts back up. They also said that since Fall 2010 is her "official" Kindergarten year based on the public school rules, that she can't join before then anyway. They also suggested I consider be an asst. leader next year because they need to add more troops.

So at this point I'm feeling quite discriminated against. Maybe I'm overly touchy but I feel like we're getting the run-around because we home school. At first the reasoning she couldn't join was her age, now it's her "public school" grade. I understand they have to have some sort of cut-off but don't tell me it's one thing and then 5 months later do a switch-a-roo on us. Especially since I told dd last fall that she could join after her birthday and she's devastated now that she can't.

My dh says I should drop it and follow along but my mom thinks I should pursue this. I won't feel comfortable if I do insist on putting her in a troop anyway, but this is really bothering me. I know at one time an area about 45 minutes from us had a multi-level homeschool troop....I'm almost wondering if I should approach the council with creating one for my own area.

WWYD?

[One_Girl]

I don't think it is worth persuing. Our troops also requires kids to be actual kindergarten age according to the school districts policy. I don't think it is an issue of discrimination. They enforce this rule across the board in my area whether people decide to push their child to homeschool for kindergarten a year earlier than the district allows them in or whether they find a private school that will let them enter early. The people who run it are volunteers and maybe the one you talked to did think five was good enough even though they have a different rule in place.

[sha_lyn]

While there was a bit of leeway at one time, I believe it has come down to a liability issue as to letting girls register before they turn 5. Also the new program (Journeys) are more academic therefore I can understand why many councils are now aligning their age requirements with the school grade levels.

[jeteaa]

you'll find this a common theme when dealing with activities for "school aged kids". My dd1 is also "in K", she turned 5 in July. I went through a phase where I was excited when dd1 turned 5 and thus became eligible for soccer, and other activities. I learned a lesson.... DON'T RUSH IT! If I were you, I would hold off until next fall to even call her a kindergartner and also wait until then for gs. I think in the long run, she will be happier not being the youngest in the troop.

[Shellie]

Originally Posted by One_Girl

They enforce this rule across the board in my area whether people decide to push their child to homeschool for kindergarten a year earlier than the district allows

Just for the record...I didn't push her, she pushed me. LOL She's mature for her age, probably from having an older brother and sister 6 and 10 years her senior and also probably because she's been through a lot medically.

Originally Posted by sha_lyn

While there was a bit of leeway at one time, I believe it has come down to a liability issue as to letting girls register before they turn 5. Also the new program (Journeys) are more academic therefore I can understand why many councils are now aligning their age requirements with the school grade levels.

In my state I determine the grade level as long as she's home schooled so it does seem unfair from my perspective to say that my evaluation of grade level doesn't count for this when for other things it does. But like I said, I understand they need to have a cut-off...the frustrating part was being told "she can start in January as soon as she's 5" and then when I called back, being told they had reconsidered.

Originally Posted by jeteaa

you'll find this a common theme when dealing with activities for "school aged kids". My dd1 is also "in K", she turned 5 in July. I went through a phase where I was excited when dd1 turned 5 and thus became eligible for soccer, and other activities. I learned a lesson.... DON'T RUSH IT! If I were you, I would hold off until next fall to even call her a kindergartner and also wait until then for gs. I think in the long run, she will be happier not being the youngest in the troop.

I hadn't really considered the ramifications of her being the youngest in the troop but that's a good point. I personally feel she's ready emotionally and academically or I wouldn't have tried to sign her up, of course. She's used to being around older kids since she has older siblings (11yo and 14yo) and has been active in multi-age home school groups and activities for a long time.

FWIW, I heard from the same person both times so that might be part of my frustration in having the rules changed on me mid-stream. It would have been simple to tell her after the first inquiry that she needed to wait till the following year but rather I told her she had to wait till her birthday and she didn't slip at all--talked about it at least weekly all those months. My older daughter was a GS so I think that's one of the reasons my little one is so excited to get started. And I was a GS and my mom was a leader for years...I guess it's kind of in our blood now.

[Shellie]

All that said, they do need leaders and more troops and it seems like my area could benefit from a home school group--I think I'll ask about that for the fall.

I also want to say thanks for helping me put the situation in perspective. I did get a vibe that bothered me but I tend to be a little sensitive about potentially being treated differently because we home school. We're in our 8th year so I should probably get over it--sometimes I guess it's appropriate to stand up and sometimes you just have to go with the flow.

[Grace and Granola]

It makes sense to me that you would go by the public school grade cut-off. Since 99% of the district's kids are going to be in public school, it seems like they wouldn't have thought to put the age, but the grade. I don't think you're being discriminated against because you homeschool, but they want the girls to be of similar age. After all, you could start Kindy work with a gifted 3yo, but that doesn't mean it's appropriate for her to be in a troop with 5yos just because you determine she's in kindergarten. KWIM?

Maybe after your first discussion, the leader then got clarification from the higher ups as to what the rule really is. I wouldn't make assumptions as to the motives of this person. Especially if you're considering joining as a leader next year. I like your idea of starting a homeschool troop!

[Shellie]

Well, I wasn't working with a leader but directly with the council. That's why I thought I could count on what I was told last fall--that dd could join when she was five. They said it was an age thing, that she had to be five. They actually said to call back in Jan. when she turned five. Then she turned five and now it's a no-go. Maybe they changed the official rules between my first contact and my second. I don't know. It has caused a lot of disappointment for dd but I guess that's part of life. Feeling discriminated against is justa vibe I got, because of the change of tune. They did also mention that they're short of troops and don't feel like they have a place for her. Personally, I think if she'd transferred into the school, something would have been arranged. But again, I'm going on past experiences with different councils. I know they can operate differently.

[sha_lyn]

There was a change as far as age/grade levels etc that was in transition for the 08-09 school yr. Exisiting troops/individuals could chose to go by the old or new policies for 08-09. New troops/newly registered girls had to go by the new grade requirements.
http://www.girlscoutsww.org/news/programlevels
Perhaps the person you spoke to was just thinking of the older policy.


While that chart does not show it, the old policy had age ranges in addition t grade levels included. Libility became an issue especially with the change that allows Daisies to participate in cookie sales and other product sales.


ETA: the second paagraph does hint at the change to goin by grade level alone:

One of the key elements is a revision of the Girl Scout levels. Girls say grade level – not age – often determines their social groups. Research has shown that girls learn best, and have the most fun, when they are with the right developmental and social group.

Now as homeschoolers I bet many of us disagree with the above but IMHO that is moot. The point is that most children are segregated by age/grade level and do not learn how to "socialize" with a wide age range.

[itsrtimedownhere]

i've been in a troop or a leader for 16 years. ime, councils have very little to do with the troops.

if you want her to be in a troop, call council and ask them for the phone number for service unit leader in your area. once you are in contact with her, tell her you have a daughter that wants to be in brownie and ask for the brownie leader's phone number.

then it will be up to the brownie leader whether or not she can get in. not some person she will never meet.

(if you offer to volunteer, she will more likely get in gs always needs more mom volunteers! )

[Shellie]

Originally Posted by sha_lyn

Now as homeschoolers I bet many of us disagree with the above but IMHO that is moot. The point is that most children are segregated by age/grade level and do not learn how to "socialize" with a wide age range.

Good point...my philosophy is not to segregate closely by age level--my dd has been exposed to kids of all ages from birth and is comfortable in those multiage groups BUT the whole reason I want her to be in GS is so she can experience a group of girls her own age.

Originally Posted by itsrtimedownhere

i've been in a troop or a leader for 16 years. ime, councils have very little to do with the troops.

if you want her to be in a troop, call council and ask them for the phone number for service unit leader in your area. once you are in contact with her, tell her you have a daughter that wants to be in brownie and ask for the brownie leader's phone number.

then it will be up to the brownie leader whether or not she can get in. not some person she will never meet.

(if you offer to volunteer, she will more likely get in gs always needs more mom volunteers! )

Interesting! I just went by our council's webpage where it has you fill out a form, including age/grade and then they call you to refer you to the more local person. Which of course they then refused to do based on dd's age/grade. I'll try to track things down on a more local level and I do want to volunteer in some capacity next year.

[Linda on the move]

I used to be a girl scout leader. Homeschooled girls really are best off with the grade they would be in by their age and NOT by the reading/math they are doing. It's about fine motor skills. Really. Do daisy's next year and the brownies the year after and she'll have a lovely time and feel really good about what she does. Push it, and she could easily end up over her head wondering why all the other girls are better at everything. It really doesn't have anything to do with how well she reads.

Let it be a fun, mellow social outlet where she is exposed to lots of new things.

[Shellie]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move

I used to be a girl scout leader. Homeschooled girls really are best off with the grade they would be in by their age and NOT by the reading/math they are doing. It's about fine motor skills. Really. Do daisy's next year and the brownies the year after and she'll have a lovely time and feel really good about what she does. Push it, and she could easily end up over her head wondering why all the other girls are better at everything. It really doesn't have anything to do with how well she reads.

Let it be a fun, mellow social outlet where she is exposed to lots of new things.

Well, she doesn't read yet, really. Would she be behind in that regard, if she's not reading by fal? I'm looking at is as a social outlet and also for the "girl-power" aspect to it. I loved GS when I was a kid and it seems even more focused on creating strong women, which I like.

[sha_lyn]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move

I used to be a girl scout leader. Homeschooled girls really are best off with the grade they would be in by their age and NOT by the reading/math they are doing. It's about fine motor skills. Really. Do daisy's next year and the brownies the year after and she'll have a lovely time and feel really good about what she does. Push it, and she could easily end up over her head wondering why all the other girls are better at everything. It really doesn't have anything to do with how well she reads.

Let it be a fun, mellow social outlet where she is exposed to lots of new things.

ITA...I led the daisy level for our multi-level homeschool troop one year. We let a girl join a yr early because we were assured that she was on a K level. It was a nightmare. No one listen to me and they went ahead and bridged her to brownies with the rest of the daisies. Now I am getting feedback from one of the brownie leaders that I was correct when I said we needed to offer the daisy level for another year. She is a very sweet girl, but her attention span, motor skills and emotional maturity are way behind the other girls.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by Shellie

Would she be behind in that regard, if she's not reading by fal?

Not in a Daisy Troop!

I suspect that if you pushed to have her in Brownies she would be behind the girls.

[elus0814]

My 5 year old DD is in Daisy scouts this year. The troop began meeting a few weeks after she turned 5 but she is about a month younger than what the state considers to be kindergarten age (if I had wanted to send her to public school they wouldn't have taken her until next year, a few weeks before she turns 6.... and they wonder why this state is behind in education, they're not starting kids with anything until they are nearly 6 and many of them get nothing at home). Anyway, they accepted her no questions asked. When I was on the phone with the leader she asked what grade DD was in and I said she's homeschooled and is doing kindergarten work this year. She asked her age and I said 5. There was no problem. I agree with other posts, start with daisies then move up to brownies. It's more social than anything and she might feel out of place with kids that are much older. My DD is one of the youngest girls and although she is at or beyond what they are doing in school she doesn't have the same social skills, especially since those girls spend their days surrounded by other kids their age. DD also doesn't know all of the schooly things that they do like raising your hand to ask a question, standing in line, and saying the pledge.

[Shellie]

I'm looking at this as mostly a social outlet, which is why I am disappointed she can't start now--but I also don't think it will bother her next year if she considers herself a first-grader and is in Daisies with K'ers. In fact, she might even like that! She's kind of unique in that in some ways she's very mature for her age and in others she's not--she had a stroke at age 2.5 and was very ill the first 3.5 years of her life, so there are some areas where she's behind because she's had to recover/relearn things. Then again, she holds her own just fine socially and otherwise with kids a little older, or I wouldn't have considered having her start scouts when she's on the young side.

I think she'll be perfectly happy in Daisies next year--I think she would have been happy in Daisies this year, too and my concern was with being told one thing and then telling her that, and then having that decision basically reversed, which caused a great deal of disappointment for her. She was really, really looking forward to it and I think it's a crummy thing, regardless of the cause or whether or justification.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by Shellie

I think she'll be perfectly happy in Daisies next year--I think she would have been happy in Daisies this year, too and my concern was with being told one thing and then telling her that, and then having that decision basically reversed, which caused a great deal of disappointment for her. She was really, really looking forward to it and I think it's a crummy thing, regardless of the cause or whether or justification.

I totally understand. A lot of things run by volunteers are kinda like this -- poor organization and communication.

One of the things I really like about gs is the chance for girls to be mostly with the own age, but sometimes do things with girls older or younger. Older girls earn patches by teaching younger troops things (like new songs or helping them earn a badge). Many gs council activities are multi-level.

You might enjoy being a leader. Many councils offer classes to prospective leaders.