hard decision

[arianascrunchymama]

I posted on here probably about a month ago about DH being adamantly pro-circ and I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. We're in counseling right now because the circumcision debate caused a huge rift in our relationship. It got to the point where we agreed that if we couldn't make a decision we wouldn't have any more kids together- something we both desperately want. Neither one of us is content with only one child (regardless of how much joy and love DD brings us), so we brought up divorce. Now we have other issues to work out, but that's a whole 'nother post!

Since DD's birth I've been the one doing the legwork as far as researching parenting decisions, but I thought I made an effort to make DH feel included in the final say. We don't vax, we're ERF and EBF. I had a pretty traumatic hospital birth (vaginal, but I was a body in a bed hooked up to monitors instead of a laboring woman) so I also am passionate about having a HB next time around. DH was hesitant because of a lack of knowledge and mainstream "brainwashing" so I brought over a local midwife to talk with us. He asked a ton of questions and in the end gave the green light.

He's read all my links, watched a few circ videos, read the history and all the statistics AND even done his own research (which ended up being pro-circ biased websites). His main problem with having an intact son is that a) he's circ'd so he wouldn't know how to teach him how to clean himself and b) he would hate for our maybe future son to be rejected/teased by girls over a decision we made. DH dealt with a lot of rejection when he was a teenager so I understand his need to protect his children from the same fate... I really do. He threw out this ultimatum that has my mind reeling: "You always get your way, so how about we compromise: if we can have a hospital birth, we can leave any sons intact."

Part of me wants to jump all over that, but the other part vividly recalls crying and yelling at the nurses and gets chills when I think about setting foot in a hospital to give birth again. I can always "accidentally" wait to long to go to the hospital, but that's dishonest and I want DH to be an active participant in a HB. Then again, I could "let him get his way" and say yes to circumcising and pray that he has a change of heart once we're dealing with a real, live child rather than a hypothetical one.

help!

[Shellie]

In your situation, I might do it. Sort of a compromise. Of course my feminist side disagrees. Although I do want to point out that you can have a wonderful hospital birth--I had one after a traumatic one.

I fail to understand men who so adamantly want to circ even after knowing the facts and seeing modern circ rates, etc. In our family, dh is circed and our two sons aren't. Teaching them how to clean themselves? A non-issue until they're retractable and then it's as simple as me saying "swish some water around when you pull your foreskin back."

Does your dh know there's no special care and that in some parts of the US, circed boys are the minority or close to it?

[AustinMom]

I agree with original poster on the circ point. Intact boys make up the majority. And, no extra "help" is needed to teach a boy how to clean properly it's pretty much, swish water with skin pulled back, no biggie.

As far as being teased, kids are going to tease other kids regardless. He can be too tall, too short, different clothes, etc. Parents can't prevent that. Sorry to rain on his parade.

As far as the compromise goes, I feel that's a crappy one. I believe the way the baby comes into the world should be mostly up to the mom, after all, it is you who has the baby, not him, and you who needs to feel comfortable doing do in order to not have a traumatic birth. That's wrong of him to use that as a bargaining chip, to me, it's not a chip available to him.

Maybe have a talk with your Ped about it. The AAP says it's cosmetic surgery and not needed. If he wants, the Ped can show him how to clean himself on his yearly check up.

My hub is circ-ed and our son is intact. In short, I believe that skin is there for a reason, and most men would agree with that.

[Friday13th]

Have you tried taking the angle that this isn't a decision either one of you have the right to be making?

The penis in question belongs to your child and it is his decision to as to what he wants to do with it, you are simply preserving it in its intact state until he is old enough to tackle the issue.

I would not compromise my birth experience but I also strongly feel that performing cosmetic surgery on our children is not a right that belongs to DH or myself.

And for what it's worth DH is intact and had a circumcised father, he figured out the cleaning thing and was not traumatized by a childhood in a town where the vast majority of boys were circumcised.

[mommy2two babes]

I agree that that is crappy compromise.
Do you think that he really wants a hospital birth or he just thinks you want a HB more than you don't want circ?

Honestly I would be willing to have hosp birth if that was the only compromise I could make work. ( this from someone really traumatized by hospitals) I also think that if it came down to it and my DH knowing how I felt would back down and opt for the HB anyways.

[arianascrunchymama]

I know all this, and I've tried telling him! I think my exact words were "yeah, because it's really hard to ask a teenage boy to play with himself in the shower!" He does tune me out after a while and gets very defensive. I don't know how to bring up his own vulnerability without making him feel picked apart. He's VERY defensive of his mother so I think a very large part of it is somehow validating his mother's decision (she was 16 when he was born) to have him circumcised.

I definitely feel that where and how other children get brought into the world should be my decision especially since he was the one siding the with nurses and sleeping on the pull out bed in my hospital room! But this is the first time he's offered to give a little so I'm thinking of jumping on it. Maybe the best thing to do is just leave it undecided since we're not even TTC and hope and pray for him to come around.

[eclipse]

Honestly, I'd tell him that I would birth the way I choose, and my son would have a penis in a state that he (my son) chose. And then I would end the discussion. Neither cutting off part of my baby's body nor my comfort during birth are topics up for compromise.

For the record, your husband is grasping at straws in his arguments and he knows it. Any reliable medical source (even ones that treat circing as neutral or potentially positive) tell you that you don't need to do anything special to clean an intact penis. There is no need for your husband to teach your son anything. As for the rejection argument - what if he is rejected/teased because he is circ'ed?

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

agree with eclipse tell him how you feel one final time (that it will not be done period) then drop it. When/if the time comes leave your ds intact and deal with it then.

[Shellie]

For some reason I thought you were already pg and expecting a boy! In that case, I think you have time to convince him. I personally wouldn't get pregnant again till you do. He's being really stubborn (no offense...my dh can be too about certain things) but it sounds like if you can get him to open his mind a bit, maybe he will come around. It would be really sad if you had to stop having kids due to this disagreement but as a mom I would never back down on nocirc.

You can point out that choosing to leave any future sons' foreskins intact is not the same as saying his mother made a mistake. When we know better, we do better.

[2xy]

If he's saying he'll leave the boy intact if you birth in a hospital, then he's also saying that circ isn't that important to him. What's important to him is being in control.

[eclipse]

Originally Posted by 2xy

If he's saying he'll leave the boy intact if you birth in a hospital, then he's also saying that circ isn't that important to him. What's important to him is being in control.

yep.

I also missed that you aren't even pregnant right now. I just wouldn't talk to him about it anymore, period.

[Bea]

How does he cope with being the father of a daughter given that they have such different genitals?

How will he cope with teaching her to wash her 'bits' at bath time in the coming year or two?

[A&A]

I had two hospital births.........a really traumatic one and then a really great one. The second time, I found a female OB who was due a few months before me!! Needless to say, she had total empathy for me.

[kcstar]

It's an awfully personal question to ask a guy, but do you know any intact men who could talk your husband around?

DH wanted circumcision for our son. We talked and waited, talked and waited, but I think the nail in the coffin was when I had one of my brothers talk to DH over the phone. My brothers are intact, and this one was able to convince DH that it wasn't a big deal to be uncirced.

Apparently most men DON'T look when they're using the restroom.

[Arduinna]

Honestly, I wouldn't make that compromise. He can choose where and what type of medical care he gets but as long as the baby is coming out of my body I'm choosing the birth place. As for the circ decision, IMO it's not the parents to make. The boy can decide once he is an adult. But I'm in the over my dead body camp, and I told my dh that when we originally disagreed. He did come around but it took a few years and he is now an intactivist and has talked to friends about keeping their kids intact.

[KaylaBeanie]

Nope, I wouldn't bite. Like a PP said, he doesn't care that your future sons will be intact if he's willing to compromise. You are the one going through labor, you are the one who gets to decide where and how you do it. I understand that marriage is about compromises, but he's not issuing an ultimatum out of love and concern. If he was so concerned about home birth and not circumcising, he wouldn't have made the offer.

[elanorh]

I wonder what your counselor would say about the deal that your dh is offering you? I agree with pps who think that it's a sign that this issue is as much or more about control as it is about circumcision.

Honestly, though, if you felt that he would eventually come 'round, I'd almost be tempted to take him up on that hospital deal, IF you could find a CNM or OB who you felt you could trust for a natural, intervention-free labor. Assisted homebirths aren't really an option where I am (Yet: the law changes in July ) - so my girls were both hospital births. I'm lucky, I've got a great OB and have had natural labors (second better than my first, because I knew to ask for delayed cord clamping and babe directly to breast). I can't compare them to home birth, but can say that from what I've seen and read, even here on MDC, I had very positive births. So, it's possible that you could find an HCP who would be able to support you with a great natural hospital labor.

But again, I think the root issue is larger - control and respect.

[billikengirl]

Why is he suggesting hospital birth as the compromise? To punish you for not circing? Or because he knows how traumatic it would be for you, he thinks it would force you to circ?

A wise MDC poster once said that "my son's body is not a marital bargaining chip."

[A&A]

Originally Posted by billikengirl

A wise MDC poster once said that "my son's body is not a marital bargaining chip."

I love this!

[eepster]

Originally Posted by arianascrunchymama

He's VERY defensive of his mother so I think a very large part of it is somehow validating his mother's decision (she was 16 when he was born) to have him circumcised.

Does he realize that when he was born (depending on how old he is) his mom (especially at her age) was probably not actually consulted. They didn't even start consent forms till the mid '70s. Even once there were consent forms it was just one more sheet of paper in the stack to sign. They didn't start actually asking if one wanted to circ till about a decade ago (still don't ask in some places,) it was just something they did automatically like cutting the umbilical cord.