hard decision - Page 2

[starryeyedmama]

I can relate to dealing with a father who is pro-circ. Fortunately for me and my DS once I estabished that circ. was not an option for us he complied. Stand your ground and stop trying to reach an agreement with him. My son's father is totally adjusted to it now and we have two more boys due in June. Personally, I have experienced intimacy with an uncircumsized man and never felt anything negative towards him whatsoever!!! You will never regret protecting your son from unneccesary pain....blessings and strength are being sent to you from one loving mom to another.

[Storm Bride]

So, his compromise is to make the decision about your body, instead of your son's?

I wouldn't do it, and I'd be thinking long and hard about having another child with him. Reading his "compromise" in your post sent a shiver down my back. That says to me that he doesn't care that much about circ, because if he did, he wouldn't be willing to "trade". He just wants the say over either your body or your potential son's body. Ick.

[ElliesMomma]

Originally Posted by 2xy

If he's saying he'll leave the boy intact if you birth in a hospital, then he's also saying that circ isn't that important to him. What's important to him is being in control.

i agree.

and i would just like to point out that you *can* have a great experience giving birth in a hospital. you must shop around for a really good hospital. use a midwife, not an OB. and hire a doula. get to the hospital when you are already very far along in labor. get there just in time to push the baby out. (pain meds won't even be an issue). go in there with a birth plan that you work out with the doula ahead of time. i was able to do all of the above, and didn't get hooked up to any monitors. i walked the halls during transition. i labored on my feet all the way up until crowning, at which point i chose my own birthing position and pushed the baby out easily, one push for his head, another for his body. my awesome hospital has its policy to put baby on mom's chest immediately, and i got to tell them when i was ready for him to be weighed, etc.... couple hours later. they were very respectful. AND my 3 year old daughter was allowed in the delivery room with us, she woke up from sleeping just as her brother cried for the first time upon being delivered. so it really was a very good experience.

from listening to others in my DDC, home birth is a *goal* and doesn't always pan out successfully anyway. my DDC buddy wanted a HB, and wound up hospitalized for it, which turned out to be a good thing as she had some pretty severe complications that could have been tragic if she hadn't been in the hospital.

and finally, *if* you do wind up birthing a boy in a hospital, be prepared to keep your eyes on him 24/7 while you recover. you don't want an "accidental" circumcision. one of the OBs in my "group" was at my bedside at 7 am the next morning after the baby was born at 1 am, asking if i wanted him circumcised. stay vigilent, especially if your husband would be apt to "speak up" for you while you are sleeping. OK one more thing -- when you give birth in a hospital, it is *your* decision to circumcise b/c *you* are the patient, not your husband. it's *your* signature that is required. your husband could take (hypothetical) son elsewhere at a later time, but in order to have it done in the day or two after birth during your hospital stay, requires your OK. simply refuse to give your consent.

my 2 cents.

and ps: unsolicited advice, but decide if you really want to stay with a man who gets this bent out of shape over desire to circumcise... that you wind up in marriage counseling over it. is this really the issue, or is it, as previously mentioned, about his desire for control?

[Smokering]

Eugh. I think I'd be tempted to snap "Honey, how about this: I make decisions concerning MY body, and our son makes the decisions concerning HIS body, and you do whatever you want with YOUR body". Or, if I was in a particularly bad mood, "Sweetie, let's compromise about your body for a change - I was wanting to cut off your ear, but I won't if you agree not to eat for a month". Really, neither your body (the birth) nor your son's (circumcision) are his domain, unless he can prove a legitimate safety issue, which it seems he can't. Grrrr.

I had a traumatic hospital birth too. I can't imagine my horror if DH, who knew what I went through, was willing to put me in that situation for no good reason. That's so uncaring! No, one traumatic hospital birth does not necessarily doom you to another, but there's a reason they tell birth trauma victims to change as many things about the location and circumstances of the previous birth as possible for the next birth, you know? If your DH has agreed that homebirthing is safe, he has no grounds for being so callous. Maybe remind him that he greenlighted HB?

I'd be worried about having another child with a guy willing to give you that choice, too. Was he not there during your traumatic hospital birth? Maybe remind him what it was like for you, and ask him why he's willing to put you through it again? I'm sorry you're in this situation.

[berry987]

What about letting your future son decide. Leave your boy intact and when he reaches his teens, ask him if he'd rather be circ'd. Seems like a fair compromise - if he's being teased or feels it's too difficult to clean he can opt to have it done then.

If your DH says, "Well, what kid is going to willingly go in for surgery on his penis??!" Say, "Well, what parent willingly sends their baby in for surgery on his penis?"

Don't compromise on the HB - that is YOUR labor, not his.

[vermontgirl]

Why does he care so much about what happens to your son's penis? It is a little strange when a parent has that much interest in their child's genitals-in your case divorce could even happen because of it. RIDICULOUS and DISGUSTING! This subject should not even be up for debate. Not your penis= not your choice.

[emnic77]

Personally, I would not take that compromise and I would probably be more angry about it than ever because it's so clearly based on power struggle and not evidence or fact.

[Quirky]

Originally Posted by emnic77

Personally, I would not take that compromise and I would probably be more angry about it than ever because it's so clearly based on power struggle and not evidence or fact.

Absolutely. There's a lot going on here and I find it really disturbing that, having witnessed your hospital birth experience and presumably having heard from you afterwards about your feelings about your experience, he'd be willing to force you to choose between protecting yourself and protecting your child.

Don't let him get away with this. I would put my foot down and say both of those options are off the table and they are not your choice. You figure out another way to get your need for respect in this relationship validated because I for damn sure am not going to respect you if you force me into cutting my child or risking another traumatic birth.

[ursaminor]

I feel for you mama. but I must say, I would never let DH bully me into any decision regarding the birth and care of my child. The reason I chose a HB was to have a non-violent experience for not just myself, but my son. What is the point of having a wonderful, peaceful, respectful HB if you are just going to take your baby to a hospital for an unnecessary procedure? the pain and trauma of circ can interfere with bfing, and the cortisol levels in a circumcised newborn dont go back to baseline until months and months later. Protect your rights and instincts as a mother, they are there for a reason.

[To-Fu]

I have to agree that your husband's wheeling and dealing seems creepy, and more about power/control than the issues at hand. The fact that he would force you to choose between something that he KNOWS is traumatizing to you and your body in every way and the bodily integrity of your son is... not a good sign. I'd keep working on these issues in therapy before getting pregant for sure, and I would not compromise on either issue. For me, neither is up for debate or compromise.

I love the idea of just leaving it up to your son. If he reaches the age of 18 (or whatever age/stage you think is appropriate) and wants a circumcision, let it be his decision. By saying you don't want to make that call for your son, you are not doing something TO him, you know?

[To-Fu]

I forgot to say! If one of his points of contention is that he is worried about washing your son's intact penis, just tell him he doesn't have to do it. I mean, it's no more difficult than washing a finger for a good long time (maybe your husband doesn't know about not retracting?). But I am the one who most often gives our intact son a bath anyway, so I do the penis-washing. I don't think twice about it, any more than I would think twice about washing his elbow. It's honestly easier than getting his face and hands clean sometimes!

[HERO]

Do not give in to your hub! I'm not a mother, I'm a man. I don't have children yet but if I do, and it's a boy, he WILL NOT be circumcised. PERIOD.

The difference between father and son is almost a non-issue, at least for the son.Take me, for example. My dad is circed, I am not. I noticed and asked, question was answered and the only part that bothered me was thinking "they cut penises?!?". So there's the "we should look alike" reason, nonsense.

As for being rejected by girls. I'm 24, still kind of young lol, I have NEVER been denied because of my "status". Have there been questions asked? Yes, but they were of an inqusitive nature, if they noticed at all. If there ever was/will be any objections, I'll call them a cab. I'm smart AND good looking (I know it's the internet and people can say whatever they want, but I am), I don't have to take that.

There maybe more reasons posted that your hubbz has but honestly, I don't remember and for some reason it is not being displayed.

Final thoughts, DON'T DO IT, hospitals are ruthless, and just don't do it.


Forgive me if men are not welcome on this forum, but I stumbled across The CAC and just had to comment, encourage or admire all the people that are a cut above the rest (or uncut above the rest).

Refrences: Me, a smart, good looking 24 year old male in the U.S. (I'm not a narcissist lol, it is not my intention to sound callous or arrogant but sometimes it just happens )

[eepster]

Originally Posted by HERO

Forgive me if men are not welcome on this forum, but I stumbled across The CAC and just had to comment, encourage or admire all the people that are a cut above the rest (or uncut above the rest).

Men are quite welcome. In reality, this is a male issue. It's just that us mommies get a lot of say in this issue (though we really shouldn't, it should be something men get to choose for themselves as adults) and the duty/need to protect our male youngsters tends to fall on our shoulders.

[serendipity22]

a) he's circ'd so he wouldn't know how to teach him how to clean himself

So what. Not a reason for surgery. Circed fathers can feel threatened by a son with an intact penis.

b) he would hate for our maybe future son to be rejected/teased by girls over a decision we made.

Makes no sense. An intact penis is NOT a result of a parental decision (though a circed penis is). Anyway as someone has in their siggy, a foreskin is a good stupid woman filter.

DH dealt with a lot of rejection when he was a teenager so I understand his need to protect his children from the same fate... I really do.

Children can INVENT reasons for teasing/rejection. Another absurd reason for surgery. Circ will not defend him from anything.

He threw out this ultimatum that has my mind reeling: "You always get your way, so how about we compromise: if we can have a hospital birth, we can leave any sons intact."

You're the one giving birth so you choose where and how you do it. This is a form of blackmail. Can you let him have his own way over something which isn't detrimental to someone else?

[momongeon]

Originally Posted by 2xy

If he's saying he'll leave the boy intact if you birth in a hospital, then he's also saying that circ isn't that important to him. What's important to him is being in control.

I agree. It sounds a lot like my DH. We settled on a car for my 1st ds' foreskin. Clearly it was not important enough to him. Here is my theory on that with a little experience. DH and I have been together for over 10 yrs married for almost 6. We started TTC 3 mo after we were married and circ became a topic of conversation right away. DH was VERY pro-circ and ended many conversations with "if it's a boy he WILL be circ'd, there is no discussion" I cried myself to sleep almost every night thinking about my baby being strapped down to a cold board and having his foreskin cut from his perfect body. I was working so hard just to form the damn foreskin just to cut it off. It made no sense to me. So he suggested a compromise. I chose the cheaper car (which I liked slightly more than the other) just to keep all future boys, including the one I was pg with, intact. Very stupid if you ask me.
Years later after many conversations about how happy I was and how boys should NEVER be forced without consent to go through an elective cosmetic procedure, he said I had to stop talking about it with friends b/c it was embarrassing. He then, to my shock, admitted that he was glad we did what we did and he wishes he was given the choice!!! WHAT?!?!?! I nearly fell over. He had a few drinks in him (AKA truth serum) so I knew he was sincere. So here is where I tell my theory. I believe that the evidence I found and shared with DH may have convinced him I was right. He would never admit that unless under the influence. I think he didn't want to be responsible for the decision if it turned out to be a mistake.

With that I think your DH is trying to barter so he can get out of being responsible for that decision. If I were in your situation I would not give in to that compromise. I am sure there is something better you could barter for Best of all you have plenty of time to find the perfect thing!!!

[eepster]

Originally Posted by momongeon

I agree. It sounds a lot like my DH. We settled on a car for my 1st ds' foreskin. Clearly it was not important enough to him. Here is my theory on that with a little experience. DH and I have been together for over 10 yrs married for almost 6. We started TTC 3 mo after we were married and circ became a topic of conversation right away. DH was VERY pro-circ and ended many conversations with "if it's a boy he WILL be circ'd, there is no discussion" I cried myself to sleep almost every night thinking about my baby being strapped down to a cold board and having his foreskin cut from his perfect body. I was working so hard just to form the damn foreskin just to cut it off. It made no sense to me. So he suggested a compromise. I chose the cheaper car (which I liked slightly more than the other) just to keep all future boys, including the one I was pg with, intact. Very stupid if you ask me.
Years later after many conversations about how happy I was and how boys should NEVER be forced without consent to go through an elective cosmetic procedure, he said I had to stop talking about it with friends b/c it was embarrassing. He then, to my shock, admitted that he was glad we did what we did and he wishes he was given the choice!!! WHAT?!?!?! I nearly fell over. He had a few drinks in him (AKA truth serum) so I knew he was sincere. So here is where I tell my theory. I believe that the evidence I found and shared with DH may have convinced him I was right. He would never admit that unless under the influence. I think he didn't want to be responsible for the decision if it turned out to be a mistake.

With that I think your DH is trying to barter so he can get out of being responsible for that decision. If I were in your situation I would not give in to that compromise. I am sure there is something better you could barter for Best of all you have plenty of time to find the perfect thing!!!

This is very insightful and makes a lot of sense. I've seen lots of post where a mom let the dad pick something else he felt was important so he would feel like he was having input into the childrearing decisions. I've seen a lot where the mom went along with the dad's choice of names (we almost used DH name choice, but MIL vetoed it .) I let DH choose the diapers we used (kirkland's sposies.)

[4chunut1]

Originally Posted by eepster

Men are quite welcome. In reality, this is a male issue. It's just that us mommies get a lot of say in this issue (though we really shouldn't, it should be something men get to choose for themselves as adults) and the duty/need to protect our male youngsters tends to fall on our shoulders.

Sadly, you are SO right... It SHOULD be the males/fathers taking the lead on this issue, especially the circumcised men. THEY should be insisting that their sons have the choice about their bodies, a choice that was denied them... IF enough men took the lead on this, circumcision would quickly become a relic of the past.

[intactDS]

Originally Posted by eepster

Men are quite welcome. In reality, this is a male issue. It's just that us mommies get a lot of say in this issue (though we really shouldn't, it should be something men get to choose for themselves as adults) and the duty/need to protect our male youngsters tends to fall on our shoulders.

speaking as the intact son of a mother who feels the same way, THANK YOU!!

[A&A]

Originally Posted by Smokering

Eugh. I think I'd be tempted to snap "Honey, how about this: I make decisions concerning MY body, and our son makes the decisions concerning HIS body, and you do whatever you want with YOUR body".

I really like this answer.

[A&A]

Originally Posted by 4chunut1

Sadly, you are SO right... It SHOULD be the males/fathers taking the lead on this issue, especially the circumcised men. THEY should be insisting that their sons have the choice about their bodies, a choice that was denied them... IF enough men took the lead on this, circumcision would quickly become a relic of the past.

Just for the record, my (circumcised) dh was as vocal about leaving our son intact as I was!