hard decision - Page 3

[A&A]

double-post.

[eepster]

Originally Posted by A&A

Just for the record, my (circumcised) dh was as vocal about leaving our son intact as I was!

I think for many men it comes down to reason vs emotion. Reason beat emotion for your DH (unless there is an unusual emotional dynamic for him that made him have an opposite reaction from most circ'd men.)

For moms it's easier to get reason and emotion on the same side. Since there is no need to justify what happened to themselves, there is no need to validate their own status as good, etc moms can just go with not wanting to harm their baby as the primary emotion involved. Of course reason will agree with that emotion.

Of course there are some women who are pro-circ, I suspect those emotions come from a need to defend past participation in circumcision. Also anyone can fall prey to faulty reason.

[Quirky]

Originally Posted by eepster

Men are quite welcome. In reality, this is a male issue. It's just that us mommies get a lot of say in this issue (though we really shouldn't, it should be something men get to choose for themselves as adults) and the duty/need to protect our male youngsters tends to fall on our shoulders.

Although I definitely agree on the welcoming front, I have to disagree about circumcision being a male issue. I think it's a human rights issue. I don't have to be gay to support marriage equality, I don't have to be a person of color to oppose racism, etc. Bodily integrity is a human rights issue, and I think women have just as much stake in advocating for genital integrity for all genders as men do.

Yes, it's individual males who suffer the primary impacts of circumcision, but as the wife of a circumcised man, the mother of an intact son and two intact daughters whom I hope will be able to find intact partners, and because of some extremely painful history in my extended family that I don't want to get into, circumcision and intactivism have affected my life profoundly. As a believer in the universality of human rights, I think I have just as much grounds to advocate for genital integrity as any man, whole or circumcised.

I also think that circumcision is a women's issue in that as A&A's siggie says or used to say, circumcision is violence against that primal bond between mother and baby. It certainly affects breastfeeding and I wouldn't be surprised if it affects bonding although of course that's impossible to demonstrate scientifically. I think it's used as a power/control issue against women all too frequently, forcing them to deny their protective instincts and accede to their male partners' demands to hand their newborns over for genital wounding.

I know that we're all on the same page about circumcision, and I welcome any and all people to the struggle, but I don't like the argument that it's a man's issue (and of course the flip side of that argument is that men have the penises, so they should be the deciders).

Peace out.

[claddaghmom]

Originally Posted by 2xy

If he's saying he'll leave the boy intact if you birth in a hospital, then he's also saying that circ isn't that important to him. What's important to him is being in control.

I know this just got quoted many times. But I had to quote it, too.

I don't think you should be saying the circ issue got you to counseling and the divorce word. Something else is going on. It sounds like he doesn't feel a need to protect your body or his son's body.

I'm so sorry you're going through this, mama.

[MyBoysBlue]

Originally Posted by Quirky

As a believer in the universality of human rights, I think I have just as much grounds to advocate for genital integrity as any man, whole or circumcised.

Very well explained Quirky. I agree. As a wife to an intact man and a mom to intact sons I have to say that I don't have any personal experience with circumcision. I've only ever been with my husband. It doesn't stop me from being outraged at the human rights violations that go on everyday.

[hakunangovi]

Originally Posted by 4chunut1

Sadly, you are SO right... It SHOULD be the males/fathers taking the lead on this issue, especially the circumcised men. THEY should be insisting that their sons have the choice about their bodies, a choice that was denied them... IF enough men took the lead on this, circumcision would quickly become a relic of the past.

You are absolutely correct, and it amazes me that more circ'd Dads can't look at this issue with enough common sense and objectivity (is that a word?) to realise how asinine the notion to amputate your son's foreskin is.

[JB1972]

a possible solution

Originally Posted by kcstar

It's an awfully personal question to ask a guy, but do you know any intact men who could talk your husband around?

DH wanted circumcision for our son. We talked and waited, talked and waited, but I think the nail in the coffin was when I had one of my brothers talk to DH over the phone. My brothers are intact, and this one was able to convince DH that it wasn't a big deal to be uncirced.

Apparently most men DON'T look when they're using the restroom.

I think she really hit on a great idea here: as an uncut man myself, I have a feeling that there are few uncircumcised men who are unhappy that their bodies were left completely intact. Find some who would answer any of his concerns with personal anecdotes, it may well defuse some of his concerns. I know that a lot of us have some strong feelings (positive) about the fact that we were not circumcised as babies.
On the "quid pro quo", I know everyone else said this already but I have to say I completely agree that the "deal" sounds really LAME! I'm going to be nice and give the guy a bit more credit than some have; perhaps he just had one of those moments that we all do where the mouth functions before the brain does? Sounds like a very "foot in mouth" kind of moment... if not he must be pretty uncaring of your pain and suffering to try to dictate how you would give birth.
I was a home birth, and witnessed my four siblings home births, and therefore I've come to be a firm believer in the benefits of a more "natural" style home birth. That said, *if* my wife were to wish a hospital birth, a C-section, birth while skydiving, or WHATEVER she felt most comfortable and relaxed about I would support that decision 100%! I cannot imagine something that stressful or challenging, so I have trouble seeing how anyone could feel that they would have the rights to push a woman into a birth process that she has indicated she's not comfortable with. If he has some sort power issues, and this is a "save face" kind of move; then surely a better (harmless) trade could be worked out.
good luck, and good for you for being such a protector of your unborn future son!
JB

[mamadelbosque]

Do the hospital birth. Find a good hospital. I've had two wonderful, lovely hospital births, with zero regrets, and honestly can't think of a thing that I'd change about either of them. Wait. Thats not true. If I could go back I'd demand to be let get into the tub *WAY* sooner with DS1 (I did not have a water birth either time, but wasn't allowed in the tub till 6am w/ DS1 after 12 hours of labor, ds was born ~9. With DS2 I got in a tub ~ 9:30pm and DS2 was born at 10:50pm 20 mins after getting out... my doula said 'well! we know what works for you em, don't we! WATER!! )

[jenP]

re Birthing: you are the birthing mother. YOUR body, YOUR choice how and where.
circumcision: your son's body, your son's choice if he ever wants to get cut when he is older. (most guys don't! but a few do.)

Your poor husband just desperately needs to validate his own circumcision by cutting his son. He's gonna have to face his own issues if the conflict is ever going to go away.
Best of luck to both of you.

Jen

[Belle]

Originally Posted by mamadelbosque

Do the hospital birth. Find a good hospital. I've had two wonderful, lovely hospital births, with zero regrets, and honestly can't think of a thing that I'd change about either of them. Wait. Thats not true. If I could go back I'd demand to be let get into the tub *WAY* sooner with DS1 (I did not have a water birth either time, but wasn't allowed in the tub till 6am w/ DS1 after 12 hours of labor, ds was born ~9. With DS2 I got in a tub ~ 9:30pm and DS2 was born at 10:50pm 20 mins after getting out... my doula said 'well! we know what works for you em, don't we! WATER!! )

That's great that you had positive hospital births. Women should birth where they feel the most comfortable. I have had a positive hospital birth myself. I had my next child at home. I felt much better at home. I would choose home again. You yourself said that you weren't allowed to get in the tub before a certain point. At home the mother is in charge and doesn't have to conform to hospital policy.

The OP does not feel most comfortable in a hospital birth. Therefore, why should she sacrifice her comfort in labor to an ultimatum when her dh doesn't even feel that strongly about circ. He is just doing this as a power struggle.

[jenP]

Originally Posted by Belle

The OP does not feel most comfortable in a hospital birth. Therefore, why should she sacrifice her comfort in labor to an ultimatum when her dh doesn't even feel that strongly about circ. He is just doing this as a power struggle.

I disagree with the sentiment that husband does not feel so strongly about circ, that it is just a control issue. I believe it is ALL about the circ, his need to cut his son so he can feel good about himself and his circ status. I don't think he is at all interested in forcing his wife into a hospital birth that she does not want. I think that, knowing she does not want a hospital birth after her trauma last time, he believes she will choose home birth and circumcision; then he gets his way AND he gets out of being the "bad guy" because it was "her decision." I would bet a million dollars if she went for the hospital birth "compromise" he would find a way to get the boy circumcised ANYWAY.

Stick to your guns, OP!! Your body, YOUR birthing choices. Your son's body, HIS cosmetic surgery choices.

And don't fall for the old "but you get to make all the decisions..." line. That's just another way insecure circumcised men try to bully and guilt their wives into circumcising their sons. Hey, if taking part in parenting decisions were so important they wouldn't leave all of them up to their wife in the first place.

It is all about their own issues over circumcision.

"Issues?? I don't have any issues!! ...I just really really REALLY need to cut off part of my son's genitals! Now just let me cut him and leave me alone!"

No, no issues at all, huh?

Best to you!

Jen

[Grace and Granola]

I would agree to the compromise right now, just to put this to rest. It's not even an issue since you're not TTC and it seems like you could use a little peace in your marriage right now. If you can accept this compromise it might, in his mind, put him back on a level playing field to where neither of you feel completely defeated. Then you can work on getting your marriage back on track. If that can happen, maybe he'll be in a better place to talk about these issues. But I would not let hypothetical scenarios destroy my marriage.

[daisymama12]

I think the DH *may* be treated too harshly.

Maybe he is afraid of a homebirth because he may believe his wife and child are safer in a hospital (it may be misguided, but it may be his belief).

He may genuinely worry about a son being teased. The pain we feel in adolescence is very marking, and he may have rolled that up in the need to protect a potential child - again, misguided, but it may come from a place of fear/love, not from a bullying need to control.

I have had my share of ups and downs in my relationship, and the thing I'm learning is that connection is everyting. To remember we're on the same team, even if we have different views.

Maybe the real conversation should be, what kind of home birth would make your DH feel comfortable? Or, is there any way to make a hospital birth work for you?

[TheGorge]

If I had to make that choice, it would be an easy one - no circumcision. Circumcision is something irreversible, and it's not about my body, so how could I do what I know isn't right to somebody so close to me?

Maybe he just really doesn't want you to have a home birth, since it seems like he's more afraid of that than his son staying intact. What are his reasons?

As far as girls teasing the boy - when he's older he can get circumcised himself if that's a problem. Not a big deal if he decides to do it, but at least he'd have a choice.

Maybe try to negotiate a compromise on something else?

[mattemma04]

I would not do a hospital birth.Easier to have the boy circed while mum is lying in a bed down the hall. If he can not come to terms with a child having normal genitals then seperation is really the best option.

[puddle]

If you haven't already ready the essay The Vulnerability of Men, I suggest you read it. I found it really enlightening about this issue. The gist of the piece is that a circumcised man will often take a woman's desire to leave her son's penis intact to mean that she is unhappy with his own cut penis. Convincing you to circumcise your son is really about convincing you that his own penis is acceptable. I also agree with those who said your husband is probably offering the hospital birth "compromise" out of desperation because he thinks you will choose the home birth and therefore "choose" circumcision.

[moxygirl]

Originally Posted by billikengirl

A wise MDC poster once said that "my son's body is not a marital bargaining chip."

This.

I have not read all the posts so forgive me if I'm a little behind the discussion. My husband insisted a son would be circ'd even AFTER he did all the research. No real reason. He just wanted it done. I said "over my dead body." Obviously we didn't have it done. For me it's a non-issue. As in, it's NOT going to be done so don't talk to me about it. I wouldn't allow someone to abuse my son, or cut off one of his other body parts. IMO, circ'ing is the same thing.

I understand that others don't feel that way. Fine, I'm not their conscience. But I am the mother of my son and will protect him from what I feel is unnecessary genital mutilation.

[seraf]

[QUOTE=arianascrunchymama;15153835] He threw out this ultimatum that has my mind reeling: "You always get your way, so how about we compromise: if we can have a hospital birth, we can leave any sons intact."
QUOTE]

Perhaps you could say, you're right, I always get my way, lets compromise: I will pump out one bottle every day and you can choose which feeding between 12 and 6 am you want to offer that bottle.


I think I said I would be so upset about the scar on my child I couldn't be responsible for a single diaper change. While I wouldn't use that as an ultimatum, it made the intensity of my feelings on the subject clear.

Seraf

[Mirrormonkey]

I would have a hospital birth to save my sons foreskin... Totally unfair of him to make that demand but if that is the breaking point, then I would just do it. My son's penis is around far longer than the time spent in hospital. Good Luck!

[pdx.mothernurture]

Originally Posted by jenP

It is all about their own issues over circumcision.

"Issues?? I don't have any issues!! ...I just really really REALLY need to cut off part of my son's genitals! Now just let me cut him and leave me alone!"

No, no issues at all, huh?

Word.