How exactly would I go about punishing anyway?

[UrbanSimplicity]

This is a bit of a spin-off from another thread where it was suggested that since the OPs ds was reading very loudly in bed and waking up the younger ones that he'd have to read with the door shut. Great, logical advice. But what happens if you have a dd like mine, just turned 4, who decides that is absolutely not what she wants?

It's tricky. We use GD and lots of talking, explaining, redirecting, pointing out others feelings, etc. But there are (many) times she will not cooperate.

Here's an example:

"OK everyone, it's almost bath time, time to clean up"
(mama and papa start cleaning)
dd1 continues whatever she's doing
"hey, dd1, come give us a hand"
"i dont want toooooooo"
-insert explanation "if we never clean up our things can get lost, broken" or "we all used these things, we all help out them away"
"can you pick something you can work on?"
"how about putting the books in a pile?"

ok, at this point I get my Mama is Getting Tired and Annoyed voice and she usually listens, but what about when they just refuse? I mean, I can't go pick her up and make her clean. We get to the point where I just decide to lose the battle because if I push any further, no one is gonna win, ya know?

I wonder about these parents that have gotten to the point where they can tell their child to "go sit on the naughty stair." (not that i want that) My spirited dd would fight tooth and nail! Actually, in the months right after the birth of my 2nd dd, dd1 and i had some tough times and about twice I tried to get her to "go sit on the bed until you calm down." Then I had to bring her to the bed, then try to shut the door while she's pulling it open, what a disaster, not my finest moment! I ended up putting myself in the bathroom to calm myself down. She's a fiesty one, to say the least, thankfully those challanging days were short lived.

Does anyone have some magic advice for how to get your kids to "listen to you" or would that entail breaking their spirit? Sometimes I just want some cooperation! Or I want to be able to employ all these sensible, gentle suggestions. One more example, from the other post - it was said if the OPs son wanted to read right now, she should say "I can't right now, but will be happy to read with you in an hour" and to go about her business. well, my dd would whine "no.......now....." and whine and scream and resort to pulling at my clothes, etc. So it's nice to say I should just go about my business, but that becomes less and less possible as she excelerates.

Please don't think I'm raising a brat - she's lovely, just very demanding and unrelenting and needs tons of attention, has been since birth.

[staceychev]

Have you read Raising Your Spirited Child? I'm almost through it right now, and I can't believe I waited until DD was almost five to get it. It's giving me a lot of insight into DD's temperament and how ways of dealing with more "regular" temperament kids just don't work for kids who are overly intense or perceptive, etc...

One thing I've realized in reading the book is that DH and I are both spirited adults, and that DD's temperament really sets off our own temperaments. Things like not listening or responding immediately are typical things that set off my husband.

Regarding punishment, Kurcinka (the author) argues that typical punishments (like time-outs and the naughty stair) don't work for spirited children. Because they're so persistent, they won't calm or learn from the punishment. They'll just tantrum or argue through it. (I totally see this with my DD.)

What's starting to work so far is to always keep her temperament in mind, and give lots of lead time to transitions. We talk through everything before it happens and when it's happening. The kitchen timer is invaluable, because somehow she acknowledges the beeping timer much better than mommy saying "10 minutes is up." And, we talk about her emotions a lot to try to give her language to express herself. Kurcinka uses the phrases "red zone" and "green zone" to describe good states and bad states. We've actually started telling DD "You're heading into the red zone" and that seems to, at least sometimes, help her evaluate her behavior from a more objective point of view.

I'm not saying we've gotten rid of meltdowns... but, we are seeing them less frequently, and are getting out of them easier. We're also learning to recognize when things are kind of out of her control--she had an insanely overstimulated day yesterday, and the logical consequence for us was that she was difficult to deal with. It didn't change her behavior, but it changed our view of it.

[greenmamapagan]

How would you go about punishing? I have no idea. I could never ever put DD in time-out. I'd have to tie her to something to keep her there, which kinda takes away the "gentle" part I can't even take myself away to calm down, she follows me screaming "Mama, don't go!"

[alegna]

Do you have my dd?

For dd I find that a playful approach works best "I bet I can pick up 5 toys before you can!" Not always fun for mama... but best bet around here.

-Angela

[4evermom]

With my ds it made a huge difference how I worded something. If he asked me to do something and I said "No, not now, I can do it in an hour," he would have thrown a fit, too. But if I said "Yes, as soon as I finish this up," he'd be fine. And I would try to finish up fast so as to not push his patience and keep him from getting into a behavior rut. That still might not have worked if he was tired or hungry, but most of the time it made a big difference.

Cleaning up? I might invite ds to help me clean and let him choose. If he said "No" I didn't cajole or coerce him (or threaten) because none of that would have worked. It would only have established a relationship pattern that I didn't want to have. I might decide that I didn't want to clean his toys and they might get scattered and hard to play with. And then when they did eventually get tidied, he'd really appreciate it. He seemed to understand the point of cleaning if we were having company, for some reason, and would help more because he saw the point of it. Usually he announces things are too messy and "we" need to clean up. He helps for a while, then takes a break. And then I take a break, lol. When he was younger, I'd pack away the toys he didn't seem to play with much, things that just got strewn around. That limited the potential for chaos.

Yeah, I never understand how time-outs worked... My best technique for behavior issues was feeding ds and helping him get more sleep. All bad things seemed to stem from his being hungry or tired. And when he was really acting whacked, I knew he was tired or hungry and that made me more able to be patient. And the more patient I was, the better he was.

[annethcz]

Given your specific example, if my kids choose not to clean up their toys, they lose the toy. Probably not for good (at least the first time), but for a time at least. If they can't take care of their things, that tells me they have too many things.

[claras_mom]

Originally Posted by alegna

Do you have my dd?

For dd I find that a playful approach works best "I bet I can pick up 5 toys before you can!" Not always fun for mama... but best bet around here.

-Angela

This works for us. Sort of. Dd1 is insanely competitive, and I sometimes have second thoughts about encouraging it.

Originally Posted by staceychev

...Because they're so persistent, they won't calm or learn from the punishment. They'll just tantrum or argue through it. (I totally see this with my DD.)

What's starting to work so far is to always keep her temperament in mind, and give lots of lead time to transitions. We talk through everything before it happens and when it's happening. The kitchen timer is invaluable, because somehow she acknowledges the beeping timer much better than mommy saying "10 minutes is up." And, we talk about her emotions a lot to try to give her language to express herself. Kurcinka uses the phrases "red zone" and "green zone" to describe good states and bad states. We've actually started telling DD "You're heading into the red zone" and that seems to, at least sometimes, help her evaluate her behavior from a more objective point of view.

I'm thinking I should find time for this book. Because all of these behaviors are really familiar, and there are days that dh and I are at our wit's end in dealing with it. We've stumbled into giving her lots of time and warning for transitions and it does seem to work.

Originally Posted by greenmamapagan

How would you go about punishing? I have no idea. I could never ever put DD in time-out. I'd have to tie her to something to keep her there, which kinda takes away the "gentle" part I can't even take myself away to calm down, she follows me screaming "Mama, don't go!"

We take away privileges. Because the time-outs don't do it here, either. When I have to get away from her, to calm down, I just keep leaving the room.

One thing I've noticed lately is that if we can tie something that needs to be done into some kind of imaginative play, things get done. So far, she's the instigator. So she'll declare she wants to play hotel--right at bedtime, no less--and while my first instinct is to fight it, I've been finding that if I go along with the game, we can get everything done, while she's in the persona.
*******

But oh, it's so hard! She had a meltdown at the end of a playdate on Friday. The parents are lovely people, but I don't know them that well yet. And as I was tracking my sobbing, recalcitrant child through their house, to try to get her to settle down and come with me without picking her up and carrying her out, kicking and screaming, I couldn't help but wonder what in the world they were thinking of the whole thing. And wondering if we'd be welcome back.

[sapphire_chan]

If there are too many toys for the people who do the cleaning up to clean up, there are too many toys. Any you don't want to deal with can go away. e.g. into a box someplace out of reach until she starts helping clean up enough that she can be relied on as a cleaner. And then rotate them out as needed/convenient.


From what I've seen of punishing parents, they handle the child not cooperating with the punishment by layering on punishments. So it goes from wanting the kid to sit in a chair for 4 minutes (minute per age) to not going to the library or park for a month. Then they look at their nose on the floor and are smug that their face didn't get the better of them.

[quelindo]

Thank you for posting this! My son is 4.5 and he's exactly like your daughter. I've also found that if we incorporate pretend play into what needs to get done things are much easier. Sometimes I'm tired and don't feel like it, but if I have even a modicum of patience it's like magic.

I know I *could* tell him that if he doesn't clean up his toys I'm putting them away, but he'd be screaming and hitting me and trying to keep me from touching his toys. I don't want to fight with him. But then I don't want to be a permissive parent, either. It's so hard to know how to handle this kind of kid.

I ordered "Raising Your Spirited Child" from the library.

[claras_mom]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

If there are too many toys for the people who do the cleaning up to clean up, there are too many toys. Any you don't want to deal with can go away. e.g. into a box someplace out of reach until she starts helping clean up enough that she can be relied on as a cleaner. And then rotate them out as needed/convenient.

It's not about toys. Nor really, if you read the OP, is it about punishment. It's about being stymied by an intense, strong-willed child and searching for strategies to coexist lovingly and peacefully.

[newbymom05]

I focus on the carrot instead of the stick. With the toy example, usually I want the toys picked up because we're leaving the house, so the carrot is a fun outing, but only if those toys get picked up. I didn't read the loud-voice-waking-the-baby thread, but when I need quiet for my own baby, I tell DS1 that if he's quiet and helps me get the baby to sleep, then we can do an activity that he wants to do. Personally, I find it much easier to seek cooperation this way--I would be exhausted if I constantly tried to strong arm my 4.5 y/o into doing what I wanted.

[PatchChild]

Our tasks are usually tied to what comes next. When DS isn't cooperating with cleaning up at night, I remind him that we only have a limited time for bedtime stories. If our cleaning up is slow, we might run out of time. I've brought the three books out to the living room before and placed them in sight. As he still didn't clean up, I just put one away.

He also knows that I'm happy to help with clean up, but I only help while he is helping as well. He stops, I stop.

[jillmamma]

Originally Posted by annethcz

Given your specific example, if my kids choose not to clean up their toys, they lose the toy. Probably not for good (at least the first time), but for a time at least. If they can't take care of their things, that tells me they have too many things.

That is what I do if I need stuff cleaned up. Also, setting a timer for a specifed amount of time to do the cleanup before mom has to come in and put stuff away for awhile has helped.

[annethcz]

Originally Posted by New Mama

I know I *could* tell him that if he doesn't clean up his toys I'm putting them away, but he'd be screaming and hitting me and trying to keep me from touching his toys. I don't want to fight with him. But then I don't want to be a permissive parent, either. It's so hard to know how to handle this kind of kid.

If something like this happens, and it HAS happened at my house, it would make me even more resolved to follow through. It is important to me that my children learn that screaming and hitting will NOT get them what they want. I make sure I verbalize that sentiment, "DD, screaming at me will not make me change my mind."

[alegna]

Originally Posted by annethcz

Given your specific example, if my kids choose not to clean up their toys, they lose the toy. Probably not for good (at least the first time), but for a time at least. If they can't take care of their things, that tells me they have too many things.

That's a common response... BUT with my kid it's simply not worth the drama. Tried it a few times. The hysteria that ensued made everyone elses' life MISERABLE and was much worse than any clean up drama.

-Angela

[AllisonR]

There is a big difference, IMO, between punishments, time outs... and natural consequences. Time outs, again in my opinion, are useless because they have nothing to do with the actual problem, so how can anyone learn from them? And it wouldn't work on my DD, she would just walk away or kick the corner or break the chair or whatever. It would be crazy silly.

But if you have a child that won't cooperate, help out, share, and you have no consequences whatsoever, then why should they change their behaviour? I'd rather play than clean up, so I can see why my DD would too. But if she doesn't help clean up, then she can loose the toys that I have to clean up by myself. If she doesn't want to help, then she must not really need or want the items, kwim? If she doesn't help with XYZ, and then we run out of time that we would have used to take a bath, well then there will be no bath.

[claras_mom]

Originally Posted by AllisonR

There is a big difference, IMO, between punishments, time outs... and natural consequences. Time outs, again in my opinion, are useless because they have nothing to do with the actual problem, so how can anyone learn from them? And it wouldn't work on my DD, she would just walk away or kick the corner or break the chair or whatever. It would be crazy silly.

But if you have a child that won't cooperate, help out, share, and you have no consequences whatsoever, then why should they change their behaviour? I'd rather play than clean up, so I can see why my DD would too. But if she doesn't help clean up, then she can loose the toys that I have to clean up by myself. If she doesn't want to help, then she must not really need or want the items, kwim? If she doesn't help with XYZ, and then we run out of time that we would have used to take a bath, well then there will be no bath.

Another "natural consequence" - I sometimes point out to dd that if she won't help me, then I have no compelling reason to help her, the next time she asks. Playground logic, but it does sometimes work.

I've thought a lot about this--not so much the cleaning up issue, because dd1 is actually a fairly orderly child and is generally pretty willing to put her things back into baskets or bins provided. It has to do with timing, with the assumption we sometimes have as parents that a child should more-or-less willingly drop whatever it is she's doing or thinking to do as we ask, Right Now. I don't have a solution; for me it's just a process of identifying the issues that feed into the "problem."

The issue of timing gets back to something a previous poster talked about: allowing lots of lead time for transitions. I often find that if I don't rush the process, stuff gets done. And if you consider the drama, the reminders, the whining (on both parts), etc. etc. it often gets done in about the same amount of time, but with less angst.