What do you do when you can't make income and expenses balance? - Page 4

[shayinme]

Originally Posted by shelleyd

I feel that some of these suggestions imply that if you just find your bootstraps, you'll be able to pull yourself out of anything. Unfortunately many of these money saving suggestions are not really realistic to do if you are already living in poverty. If a farmer takes payments for a side of beef (which I for one have never found to be true) you would still have to continue to spend money on your regular grocery budget while making payments for a future side of beef. Obviously in the long term it pays off but since the OP is already in the red every month, I don't see that she is going to be able to add an extra bill every month to eventually save money.

It reminds me of the book Nickle and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich. She talks to people who are living in motels paying the weekly rate to live there. It is way more expensive to do that than to rent an apartment but when she asks why they don't get an apartment, they explain that they are unable to come up with the money for a security deposit and first months rent. So they are stuck paying more in the long run because they cannot come up with the upfront costs to save money.

I've had a garden so I know the time involved in that. People are suggesting that the OP work more than the 40hrs she's already working. I find that the idea of working overtime and still having time to garden and preserve the garden harvest and make soap to be unrealistic.

My point is just that it can be a quite a complicated problem to solve. Many of these suggestions are not actually possible for somebody who is already falling behind every month.

Totally agree with you. I think the reasons people can't get ahead are pretty complex and while there have been some good suggestions mentioned they are not alwats feasible. You mentioned the meat share and I was thinking how I have always tried to be a part of a CSA until last summer when the weather when haywire so the share was not enough to feed my family and while my farmers were generous in letting me have a payment plan, I was still having to head to the grocery store.

I think Nickled and Dimed does a great job of highlighting what its like to live check to check, I know many families do but having resources even if its a few hundred to buy a meat share which saves money can make a difference.

Over the past few years I have cut bills down but in some cases it took money to save money. Buying in bulk or through a co-op for instance is great but to get to the place where it actually saves money requires the ability to have a little extra cash to start with. Same with folks who shop the sales for food, once you get in a good rythym its a huge money saver but I learned it took time to scour the sales papers and money to at that time to buy in volume what I needed.

So I can see where there are limitations to one's ability to save money. I know last summer I tried my hand at gardening and it was a bust, sure didn't get anything what I put into the process.

Shay

[JTA Mom]

Originally Posted by velochic

Many farmers will take payments for a side of beef. You don't always have to pay in a lump sum up front.

I'd love to find something like that. Still can't really beat sale meats though. I don't buy steaks or pricey meats, so paying for a bunch of meat upfront, while cost effective for some people, isn't for me. I mean, chicken quarters at 77c/lb, beef no more than $1.50/lb. You are also in a farming/ranching region of the country, so your prices are probably lower than OP or mine, so YMMV

Soap making - $0 investment. I use lard and lye and water to make my soap. My "mold" is a plastic drawer from dd's toy box I pull out to use when making soap. Wooden spoon, free bucket, and a saucepan to melt the lard. For $6, I make enough soap to last us more than 6 months. It takes me about 20 minutes to make that soap. When the bars get small, I grind them up and use them in our laundry. If we didn't have such hard water, I'd use this soap for our laundry, too, saving a ton more money.

No, not $0. You pay extra for the lard and then for the lye. I don't know exactly how it is where the OP is, but here in the Bay Area, there is NO lye at stores. I have to order online. With shipping prices being what they are, it's expensive, unless I bought in bulk. I did that, but then again, I had enough $$ to spare to do that. You also need to weigh the ingredients. I already had a food scale, but the OP might not. A good, accurate scale costs money. My digital one cost $20, but that might just be too much for the OP. She'll also have to get a heat proof container to mix the lye into the water as well, something that will NEVER be used for food. Just because you and I have certain materials around doesn't mean the original poster does. So, in a way, it's not really true to say it costs nothing. If she had to get the 'big stuff like a scale, then cost wise, it will take her a while to break even--a while she may not be able to afford right now.

A vegetable garden also doesn't take much time. You don't have to be out there every day weeding. It's also a good thing to get kids involved in, anyway, and can become a family activity. Most veg can just be frozen if there are any that need to be put up.

I've gardened a little bit before. One thing she will need is land. I think OP mentioned having a tiny lot, so she has some chance. Those in apartments, raising one or two tomatoes--not much impact on the food bill. Time wise it takes a while to prep the ground, then plant, then weed and water. Well, it does if she's trying to keep cost to a minimum. Low cost=lots of physical labor which equals lots of time. If she's working full time and then finds a way to work extra on the side, I don't know how she will fit in gardening, cooking, taking care of her children, etc. At some point, there are diminishing returns.

No-knead bread... 5 minutes of work. And another thing kids can get involved in.

From OP comments, I thought she did do this, since she talks about scratch cooking.

You can invest a small amount of time into these things or a large amount of time. They certainly aren't "extreme". I know MANY WOH parents who do these things because they help. EVERY little bit helps.

OP - sorry to offer suggestions you weren't asking for. That's how I read your post and I obviously misread it. Sorry about that.

OP, I'm wondering if either your dh or you can switch to a better paying career?

I also noticed you belong to an organic coop. While nice, it's not necessary, nor is it cheap. There's a vast difference between conventional veggies and Ramen. I don't think switching to conventional foods, for example, for a year or two will hurt your children in the long run.

Also, Ramen, per lb, is more expensive than pasta. Why people keep recommending it as 'super cheap' food I have no idea. You get more for your money buying less processed, yet still processed white flour noodles. As someone else said, beans and rice is healthy yet inexpensive. With a bit of on sale meat, a wonderful, wholesome meal.

Ami

[velochic]

Originally Posted by JTA Mom

No, not $0. You pay extra for the lard and then for the lye. I don't know exactly how it is where the OP is, but here in the Bay Area, there is NO lye at stores. I have to order online. With shipping prices being what they are, it's expensive, unless I bought in bulk. I did that, but then again, I had enough $$ to spare to do that. You also need to weigh the ingredients. I already had a food scale, but the OP might not. A good, accurate scale costs money. My digital one cost $20, but that might just be too much for the OP. She'll also have to get a heat proof container to mix the lye into the water as well, something that will NEVER be used for food. Just because you and I have certain materials around doesn't mean the original poster does. So, in a way, it's not really true to say it costs nothing. If she had to get the 'big stuff like a scale, then cost wise, it will take her a while to break even--a while she may not be able to afford right now.

Yes, $0. In my case it was $0, so I know it can be done. I don't weigh anything, so I don't have a scale. My father taught me, so I just do it the way he always has. The bucket is just a free bucket from the deli (icing bucket). In Indiana, you can buy lye at the hardware store (at least I can) and lard at the store. Obviously your circumstances are different, and the OP may have different circumstances, but it's certainly not a far-out idea and it doesn't necessarily have any start-up costs.

As for the rest, people can devote whatever time to frugality they are able. Some things obviously take more time than others and perhaps more time than they have. But as I said before... that's why they're just suggestions. Take what you can use and leave the rest. I think it's admirable that a lot of people here at F&F spend the time to try to help each other out with suggestions. The OP and others don't have to use them, but people are obviously putting thought into helping others if they can.

[JTA Mom]

Originally Posted by velochic

Yes, $0. In my case it was $0, so I know it can be done. I don't weigh anything, so I don't have a scale. My father taught me, so I just do it the way he always has. The bucket is just a free bucket from the deli (icing bucket). In Indiana, you can buy lye at the hardware store (at least I can) and lard at the store. Obviously your circumstances are different, and the OP may have different circumstances, but it's certainly not a far-out idea and it doesn't necessarily have any start-up costs.

As for the rest, people can devote whatever time to frugality they are able. Some things obviously take more time than others and perhaps more time than they have. But as I said before... that's why they're just suggestions. Take what you can use and leave the rest. I think it's admirable that a lot of people here at F&F spend the time to try to help each other out with suggestions. The OP and others don't have to use them, but people are obviously putting thought into helping others if they can.

And that's awesome. But misrepresenting things to make them sound easier than they are isn't fair either.

You can't see how having a dad who made soap so much he can eyeball the lye to fat content isn't something that can be translated? I'm not being argumentative, just pointing out that having such an experienced mentor makes it a lot different.

And I never, ever said making soap isn't frugal. Just that if she doesn't have basic equipment, doesn't have lye available in a store to buy as needed, it's really not $0 cost. Soapmaking is a dying skill. Not many people around to teach it, so most of us have to go by books/internet. And all of those are crazy-focused on weighing. The OP is in the red each month. If she, say, had you as a neighbor, picking up soap-making for little out of pocket money would be totally doable. But she doesn't. All I was trying to point out is that it wasn't truly a $0 cost thing, and for most people, it's not a $0 cost thing at first. It's minimal cost, depending on what you have/area you are in. For me, it was just the cost of an old coffee pot for the lye water and the lye itself that had to be bought in bulk (I think I got 16lbs for $50 including shipping). Per batch of soap (and I make huge batches), cost wise it comes out to about $6, like yours. However, I can afford to tie up $50 in lye knowing it will pay off. The big batch I made last September is still going strong. Not bad for $6!

And gardening--that's a big learning curve too. Oh, if only I knew then (5yrs ago) what I know now, I would have been much more successful! Let's just say my first garden yielded 1 tiny cantaloupe, a medium bunch of dill, and rosemary. Today? Much different story. Cost wise, I bombed the first year. Badly. But at the time, I was still living at home and we didn't depend on the crop to feed us (thank God!). Maybe if the Op could find a mentor, it would definitely change things.

Actually, OP, what about finding a mentor? Someone who's btdt in a similar situation. Maybe there are others out there who can help you avoid a lot of the pain/tribulations of living so close to the edge? Maybe others with child support payments, etc?

Ami

[Altair]

My partner and I also work opposite shifts FT and there is not one extra minute in the day to do any ultra-frugal time consuming things. How can you work 2 shifts and sleep on your time off if you are solely responsible for childcare during that time? It's not a matter of "be quiet mom is sleeping while dad watches us" it's a matter of leaving your children to fend for themselves.

I work FT, come home, try to take care of child while catching up on all household tasks then we fall asleep. Dad watches the baby all day while doing some work at home then leaves for work as soon as I come home and works until his bedtime. Where is the extra time? We are both sleeping minimally now and struggling to make dinner and have clean clothes. Weekends are the only time to see each other together and it's also the time we catch up on everything we didn't have time to do during the week.

[velochic]

Originally Posted by JTA Mom

And that's awesome. But misrepresenting things to make them sound easier than they are isn't fair either.

You can't see how having a dad who made soap so much he can eyeball the lye to fat content isn't something that can be translated? I'm not being argumentative, just pointing out that having such an experienced mentor makes it a lot different.

I am speaking from *MY* experience, as does everybody on this board. Misrepresenting implies that I'm purposely trying to harm the OP by stating something I know to be wrong or incorrect.

Well, it's not true - it makes no sense. Making soap was an honest suggestion that has actually been given many, many times by people other than me here in F&F and MHM. I don't find it to be difficult or labor intensive and for us is a great money saver. You have a different experience, but I would never say you are misrepresenting the difficulty and expense of making soap because you went about it differently. I had $0 upstart costs. Your experience was different, O.K. Yours doesn't invalidate my own experience, which is my only point of reference.

The "instructions" that my father taught me were taken right off of the web, so anyone has access to it. The "recipe" doesn't involve weighing anything. It's a 4lb. tub of lard plus a 2lb. block of lard, 1 can of lye, and 2.5pints water.

Here's a link to the info we used, if any happens to be interested:
http://farmgal.tripod.com/lyesoapconcoctions.html

IMO, it really is that easy and I thought it was a helpful suggestion. In no way was I purposely misleading people. Nor with gardening, either. They're still a valid suggestions for people trying to save money. And with that, I'll say goodbye to this thread, as I don't see this helping the OP any.

[amyamanda]

Originally Posted by nudnik

Don't think your time was wasted! The good part about these forums is that lots of people read them, including many in similar situations, and even if OP doesn't benefit from the post, chances are that someone else will.

Thank you so much - this is a really important point. I forget how many people read and lurk here who are not actively participating in the conversation.

[Polliwog]

Originally Posted by RiverSky

Taking in foster children, perhaps special needs children.

This would be inappropriate. Fostering is not a solution to someone's financial problems. Especially when they have time limitations.

[That Is Nice]

Originally Posted by bobandjess99

Anyway, I wasn't really looking for help really, I'm sorry i went down that path. I am just interested in what people would say when the income and spending are not balancing, but yet you have done everything you can. I know we can cut, but what really shocked me was that even if we cut out EVERTYTHING extra, the amount of money that Dh and I earn does not cover the basic bills. Mortgage, water, gas, electricity, internet, food, car insurance. those are the absolutes we must have. Even when you cut out gym membership, car payment, credit card payments, organic coop food costs, and all the little things we buy, birthday parties and presents and xmas and clothes, etc - if i eliminated them entirely, my dh and I , who are college educated adults who work a combined 80+ hours per week do not make enough money to pay for basic shelter, clothes and food for our family..

First off, . I know that you are frustrated.

Second, you asked what people think. I've read through your OP and the posts up to this post. People have some really good ideas, and straight out good advice, and then a few kind of band aid ideas that probably aren't going to amount to much.

I was sort of surprised by the expenses you listed above. Are you saying you actually have these expenses? Or were you listing them theoretically?

OK, so, DH and I are both college educated and both work (he full time, me part time approaching full time). We make ends meet. When we both worked full time and had no child care expenses, we were able to make ends meet, help others, and save.

Now we just make ends meet, and help others with what we can. (It's a reason we're not doing a lot of other things).

Anyway, I've never had a gym membership. Ever. I've always wanted one. But I have never had one because 1) they are expensive and 2) I want to make ends meet and 3) it's important to me as a parent to have a financially viable household for my child. I would love a gym membership, but I forego it to have no debt.

I have always had the most basic, basic cell phone service. Would having a Blackberry or iPhone or something along those lines make me more efficient and able to multi-task at work? Maybe. Would it be really cool and nice? You bet! But I continue to carry the most basic of plans and use older phones because I want to balance my budget.

I still shop at Goodwill and thrift stores for most clothes. I've always done this. It's a real money saver.

I pay off debt as soon as possible. I've always done this. I don't want to pay more for something that it really cost due to interest. I've never carried credit card debt. Ever. Sure, there were lots of things I really wanted, and I really could have used, but I just never wanted to pay so much interest for it.

Granted, we don't have child support payments, but we do have to support our child we have together, and we pay high child care costs, and we have student loan debt (good debt we're managing).

And we have helped family members enormously.

But we always find a way to balance the budget. It's not always fun, and we don't have a lot of nice things compared to some of our friends and family who have consumer debt. But every time someone from the bank or an account holder has viewed our financial profile, we get complimented. And I think we're doing OK without the gym membership and iPhone.

It can be hard to give things up, though. I know. I do have some indulgences and I've given them up when I've been in a pinch, like if I had to help a family member one month and spent $500 I wasn't planning to spend. So, I know how demoralizing it can be.

But you can do it! Cut out everything except food, shelter, clothing, transportation, and things needed for work for a couple of years. And then maybe you won't be debt free, but you've have accumulated way less debt.

[That Is Nice]

Originally Posted by Polliwog

This would be inappropriate. Fostering is not a solution to someone's financial problems. Especially when they have time limitations.

Yeah, I'm going to have to agree with this. I don't think special needs children should be used to get a leg up financially. Foster kids are already so vulnerable. Hopefully, the intentions aren't monetary that are making people interested in offering their home.

[That Is Nice]

Originally Posted by shelleyd

I feel that some of these suggestions imply that if you just find your bootstraps, you'll be able to pull yourself out of anything. Unfortunately many of these money saving suggestions are not really realistic to do if you are already living in poverty. If a farmer takes payments for a side of beef (which I for one have never found to be true) you would still have to continue to spend money on your regular grocery budget while making payments for a future side of beef. Obviously in the long term it pays off but since the OP is already in the red every month, I don't see that she is going to be able to add an extra bill every month to eventually save money.

It reminds me of the book Nickle and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich. She talks to people who are living in motels paying the weekly rate to live there. It is way more expensive to do that than to rent an apartment but when she asks why they don't get an apartment, they explain that they are unable to come up with the money for a security deposit and first months rent. So they are stuck paying more in the long run because they cannot come up with the upfront costs to save money.

I've had a garden so I know the time involved in that. People are suggesting that the OP work more than the 40hrs she's already working. I find that the idea of working overtime and still having time to garden and preserve the garden harvest and make soap to be unrealistic.

My point is just that it can be a quite a complicated problem to solve. Many of these suggestions are not actually possible for somebody who is already falling behind every month.

This is such a good post. Thank you.

So often in this forum, I read that if you make your own soap, etc, as was already posted, you can save a bundle and live debt free. It's a movement, I understand, and a life philosophy which I admire some elements of.

But, seriously, the amount of money I spend on soap, on laundry soap, really on anything that I buy that I could make at home instead is not going to add up to much.

It's not going to pay the mortgage.

Also, I always see selling stuff as an option, and while this might be good treat money, or hack at some chunks of debt money, selling on Ebay or Craigslist or a yard sale is not a consistent source of funding and not enough to again pay the mortgage or the rent.

Now, cutting out unnecessary things such as cable, satelite, cell phone, gym membership would add up month after month. That is what I do and it does add up. Even if you don't cut out the service completely, going down to the most basic service with the lowest cost will help.

I am truly sorry for the comments people made about taking in foster children to bring in income, and also the comments about not marrying a man who already had children from a previous marriage. This is not financial advice, and it just seems sad to put price tags on people, even if that wasn't the intention.

The only way I've ever found to successfully balance the budget is to truly live within your means. And, yeah, sometimes that sucks. But it also isn't permanent, and it doesn't suck nearly as much as paying so much in interest on consumer debt that you can't get a handle on because it's designed to draw you in and never release you.

Good luck to the OP, and all the others struggling with this. I would recommend reading some of the threads about living well and finding joy while being frugal. There are some really good ideas out there, but not one stamp formula is going to fit for everyone.

[A&A]

A couple of people (including the OP) have implied that college debt is a waste, and therefore college itself is a waste. (If I'm reading previous posts correctly.)

College still matters; you just have to do the math ahead of time. Getting into ivy-league debt only makes sense if you end up a doctor, lawyer, engineer, or something similar.

I went to a cheap state school on a scholarship. I ended up with no college debt. I'm much better off financially because I went to college.

Just something to think about as we help our children plan their futures.

[That Is Nice]

Originally Posted by A&A

A couple of people (including the OP) have implied that college debt is a waste, and therefore college itself is a waste. (If I'm reading previous posts correctly.)

College still matters; you just have to do the math ahead of time. Getting into ivy-league debt only makes sense if you end up a doctor, lawyer, engineer, or something similar.

I went to a cheap state school on a scholarship. I ended up with no college debt. I'm much better off financially because I went to college.

Just something to think about as we help our children plan their futures.

I totally agree.

I'll throw out my story, which I've done many times on these threads in frugality.

I incurred debt in the form of student loans to obtain my degree. It was the only way to make college possible. I come from a very poor, non-working family. They don't really value education, either. (Not a great combination!).

I did get some scholarships, and I was a very academically gifted student. I did find it hard to participate in a lot of activities in high school due to finances and also transportation. I didn't have a parental support system so I abstained from a lot of things that would have made me "scholarship material." Still, I did manage to get a few scholarships that were based solely on academic work and test scores.

I did get a few grants, as well.

But the bulk of my schooling was paid for by student loans and by part time student work.

It wasn't easy, but I have never for one minute regretted taking out student loans. It was not a waste of money.

And, yes, I'm still paying them off. They're low interest and tax deductible so they are the last thing I'm going to pay off.

The student loans were an investment. My college degree, and the jobs I have been able to access because of it, have totally changed my economic position in life.

Please don't think that college is a waste of time, or that student loans a waste of money. You do need to have a bit of a plan about college and coursework, but it does pay off to have an education.

And you also need to take out the minimum student loans to make it work if you don't want them to be a burden for years and years. I also agree about the Ivy League comment. Good post! Thanks!