4yo DS in trouble for behavior at school... wwyd?

[Yaliina]

Let me preface this by saying that DS is a very sweet, wonderful, and compliant child most of the time. I'm not just saying that 'cause I'm his mom. He has never had a negative word said about him at any sitter or school he has attended (church, various private sitters through the years, and one previous "school"). Recently, he has been going through a "violent play" phase, playing guns (no toy guns in the house, but blocks, fingers, carrot sticks...), and play-fighting. We believe strongly that this is a normal developmental stage, especially for a boy. He is allowed to rough-house with daddy, and does so several times a week, mostly on the couch or bed. He knows that mommy is off-limits, and that he must first ASK anyone else before he play-fights with them, and pretty much only grandpas. Any time someone says "time out" or stop, it's over. He's never had any trouble with these ground-rules. The gun play has been somewhat more recent (last month or two). About the same time, he came up with an imaginary friend (just called buddy), who "fights" with him regularly. It's actually kinda cute- he pretends to box and kick his buddy, and he takes fake punches and falls on the ground. Full compliment of sound effects, of course.

Here's the problem:
Gun-play is not allowed at school at all. I actually have a little issue with this. As long as the children aren't being mean about it or "shooting" people who don't want to participate, I don't see why it's not allowed during free play. Anyway, it isn't. So this past week (a little last week) DS has gotten in trouble A LOT for playing guns and for play-fighting with his buddy rather than listening to the teacher. She also says he is disruptive with his noises & etc. during nap time (when kids are expected to be quiet and fairly still, but not necessarily sleep). He got in a lot of trouble on Thursday- they were threatening to call his dad, which apparently worked to finally get him in line. Of course, we had serious discussions at home with him & laid down the law, so to speak. He lost a few privileges on Thursday, and was told that if he got in trouble Friday all privileges for the weekend were gone & other consequences would be discussed. He really seemed to understand & promised to behave. Then we find out Friday that he got in time-out TWO times!!! We were so disappointed. I had had a crappy day anyway, and it just ruined my evening! We were like a bunch of sourpusses all evening Friday & we spoke very seriously about the not listening and about disobeying. He lost privileges and spent a portion of the evening in his room. We decided to completely take away all video games (which are his favorite thing, but we think might be contributing- they involve guns, anyway. G-Force and the old Legos games) until further notice.

Tomorrow I have to go in early to speak with his teacher about setting up a parent-teacher meeting, so we can find out what's really going on & figure out a better way to communicate. The teacher is always gone in the afternoons when I pick him up, and the evening ladies don't usually know what's going on. So, what would you ladies do? This will only be a problem (at the most) through July, because I'll be having another baby & quitting my full-time job. But until then, I want DS to be happy, but he needs to learn to listen and obey the teacher and not be disruptive in class. I know he knows how, but we can't figure out what the underlying cause of his misbehavior is.

This is probably rambling & I may have to come back and edit. Thanks for your advice in advance.

[hipumpkins]

Can you make it a game. I don't think acaully punishing will work b/c it's hard at that age to remember that far ahead.
Can you ask him to leave buddy with you when he goes to school? Can you take his pretend guns and "lock" them up and promise to play the game when he gets home.
Maybe let him let him keep a key in his pocket as reminder that guns are locked up.

you might even be able to work this into gun safety b/c really all responsible gun owners lock up the guns and would not be allowed to have them in a school.

now I am trying to think of game suggestions to redirect his play....

[straighthaircurly]

I will start out by saying I have a kid who lives to play "guns" and plays elaborate scenarios where he is leading military operations. He fills in all the dialogue as he directs his "men", he adds sound effects, pratfalls/stunts, etc. He is an only child and has a very active imagination and this is all part of a very elaborate fantasy world. He has a huge collection of toy soldiers, knights, and even a complete Alamo set. He will spend most of a day setting up extremely detailed battle scenes. He does not play video games at all but he has become a huge history buff and at the age of 6 now can tell you tons of details about the Civil War and WWII. Sometimes I get freaked out by his obsession because both my DH and I believe in very limited uses for military. But it is who y child is and as parents we work to help give context to real war and we talk about values a lot, but we would never ban this type of play because it is just that, PLAY.

With that said, DS's elementary school does not allow any pretend gun play either. We talked about it regularly when he started K there last year, reminding him the rules for the school. He would always ask why and I would explain that it makes some other students uncomfortable so the teachers don't allow it. His K class had a lot of rough and tumble boys who would get carried away a lot during recess and so the school had someone pull that group aside and teach them some fun games that didn't involve fighting or battling. They did use time outs or punishment unless DS continued to ignore warnings. I also volunteered weekly in the classroom so I could understand the dynamics and that helped me discuss issues with the techer promptly. I also don't believe that at a young age that punishing a child at home for something that is happening at school is very productive. Maybe aa special reward for good behavior but really a 4 year old is in the moment so when he is at school he is not thinking about how his behavior is going to affect him when he gets home hours and hours later.

It is better if you can work with the school for them to be able to address the issue more effectively right then and there. Firstly, they need to understand that what he is doing is just a natural extension of his imagination and play. If they can't understand that and respect it (they don't have to allow it, but they do need to respect that it is a natural type of play that many happy, sweet well adjusted boys engage in), then I think you need to find a new place for him. In terms of curbing his use of gun play at school, time-outs and punishment seem like a poor solution and obviously it does not seem to be working for them. Is this their first reaction or are they doing other less severe interventions first (i.e. verbal reminders, redirection, distraction) that are more age appropriate? If not, then they need to really step up their game. They need to look at when and where he is playing his fantasy gae and figure out how to help him substitute in a different activity. If they are not up to this challenge then I would pull him and find some place that is. I had to do that when DS was in daycare. The daycare kept coming to me to solve his behavior problems (tons of biting/hitting which weren't occurring at home). I finally pulled him and when we started somewhere new they helped me figure out that he had sensory processing disorder and hence his over reaction to certain situations. We were then able to seek OT and also adapt his environment to help ease things for him.

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I wouldn't punish after the fact. But, I would take some of the video games away, and limit the others. Not as a punishment, just because it might be a contributing factor.

Maybe Dad could roughhouse more at home with him? Kids really do need that outlet, and school isn't the appropriate place.

As far as most of the behaviours, you DO need to tell him what you expect... but, beyond that the school has already disciplined him. I don't know that punishing him again would work any better. Just NEVER sound sympathetic to him when the teacher explains what he did to get himself in trouble. That just sounds like you don't care. (to both him and the teacher)

I am one of those that believes "When it's over, it's over". There's no reason to keep rehashing it. A talk about new ideas, like "what should you have done instead of rolling Jarod on the floor during circle time?" But, a new punishment, or letting it ruin your night is carrying it too far.

[One_Girl]

I have never been in a daycare that allowed gun play or play fighting, in fact the elementary schools I have been in are very stern about no play fighting because kids get accidentally hurt to easily. I think that a punishment for this is over the top though unless he is just not responding to reminders. It may be that he gets so out of control when he rough houses that he needs a break to sit down and regroup before he can switch activities.

It sounds like he is going through a testing period right now though since he is also making noises at nap time and ignoring the teachers. I assume you asked about whether they use time-out or not when you enrolled him, since this is what they do it makes sense that they would use time-out with him when he consistently ignores the teacher.

I think a teacher meeting is good, but keep in mind that you are much more likely to find the teacher receptive if you approach her looking to work with her within the boundaries of the school rules. Even if you disagree with the rules about rough housing, gun play, and being noisy during nap time they are still the rules at the school you chose for him and they are unlikely to change them just because one family doesn't want to follow them. I think that you should keep making sure that you are reinforcing the expectation that he listens to the teacher. It may help if you sit down and ask him if he understands the rules about gun play, rough housing, and being noisy at nap time when he is at school. Perhaps there is just a miscommunication that you can help clear up.

[Yaliina]

Thank you all for the wonderful, helpful responses. We have done a lot of what you have suggested, and DS had a much better week. I think it was probably a combination of some "testing", as suggested, and maybe he is working through some feelings because of the pregnancy. He only had one time-out this week, and did a pretty good job of listening and curbing the pretend gun-play. After a whole week without any video games, I think we will continue to limit these more than we were previously. I'm not sure if they were contributing or not, but I feel like it helped to be without for a while.

Thanks again, ladies!! I know I can always count on MDC mommas to have good AP advice.

[Red Pajama]

Have you read any Michael Gurian books? There's a lot there about boys and development, boys and schools, and help making schools a boy friendly place to be. He has specefic suggestions for play situations in which boys get into trouble-- roughhousing and gun play.