dd not meeting potential? - Page 2

[dfunk98]

update

i wrote the teacher a note letting her know i'd like to speak to her further regarding what is expected of dd at school. she called me this morning and we hashed things out. i'm still not really happy about the way she addresses the picture, in general, but she pretty much said the same thing Momily said, that this is a pre-writing exercise, which is why she wanted more detail. she felt that dd would not be able to "retell" the story, if she didn't know/remember what the picture was. i, however, think that dd did know what she drew, even if the teacher did not, but i digress. i guess the teacher felt that if dd used crayons, the details of eyes/nose/mouth would be more pronounced. i told her that when i drew as a child, i almost always used pencil, so i did not occur to me to offer her crayons. she was happy with the medium she was using, so i didn't challenge it. the picture was just face. it took up the whole page. it did have hair, eyes, nose and a mouth, however the "freckles" were large circles that covered the remainder of the face. i could see how the teacher might have overlooked the facial features, but come on-dig a little deeper!!
what it boiled down to is that dd has some fine motor issues, for which she goes to ot for 1x/week, and the teacher is not seeing a great improvement. i agree, her writing is not much better. however, the teacher said that dd has all the skills she should (letter/number recognition, letter sound recognition, rhyming, etc) just not the tools to apply them. meaning she has trouble writing and conveying her thoughts. we decided we will both encourage her to write and check-in in a few weeks.
the teacher said this kind of thing improves with age and she just needs to build her fine motor strength. yesterday, coloring a homework sheet, dd said her arm hurt, so i know this is a problem. i just wish i knew how to help her more.

[SiValleySteph]

That's interesting. My son's class had the same assignment (in class, though) and the teacher went over different things you might see on an older person - glasses, wrinkles, gray hair, etc. - and drew a picture of what she thought she would look like. The assignment was not vague this way and lots of neat pictures were the result. It was part of the "100th day" celebration.

I would be perplexed by the note you received as well.

Also, it seems like too much emphasis on homework. We do have homework, but we don't get it back with notes to correct or anything like that. I think our teacher understands that homework is not entirely appropriate at age, but is required these days (by school/parents/etc.), so it is used mainly as a tool to inform the parents of what the children are learning in class and to start the homework routine for the future.

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by dfunk98

what it boiled down to is that dd has some fine motor issues, for which she goes to ot for 1x/week, and the teacher is not seeing a great improvement. i agree, her writing is not much better.

This, I think, is the heart of the problem. Perhaps the teacher isn't used to dealing with girls with fine motor issues? (They're much more common in boys.)

Where does your dd do OT? I would ask the OT for fun things you could do at home to address the fine motor issues.

If it helps, our ds had a significant fine motor delay when he was in K. (Yes, he was in OT.) He could barely do representational drawings, and he spent all of journaling time in K drawing pictures of fire trucks and buses.

He hated writing in 1st grade. Oh the tears we had about writing just one sentence.

He's in 3rd grade now and writing a lot. His stories are detailed and interesting. He fills up several pages when other kids are still working on a paragraph. He likes writing.

What's changed? OT finally helped. And he's matured. His writing can now keep up with his brain. He's actually learning keyboarding and I think that will make a huge difference as he goes on.

On the other hand, his drawings still pretty much look like they did when he was in K.

Personally, I'd roll my eyes (to myself), smile sweetly at the teacher and say "we'll see if we can work on it at home." Then do whatever is fun for your daughter at home.

[GuildJenn]

Originally Posted by Momily

Drawing a picture with "freckles" is the same thing as assigning a paper to a child about "what do you want to be when you grow up" and having the write you a one liner saying "When I grow up I want to be old." As an adult, it's like fabricating information in your newspaper article, or drawing a picture for the instruction manual on how to assemble your new table, and leaving out one of the legs because it looks good to you that way. In both of the situations, the writer/artist would not be able to argue that they were creating "art", they'd be fired.

Off topic alert: I'm an editor and I'm not sure I see the correlation here between drawing a picture with freckles (probably age spots) and fabricating information as a journalist.

Like most editors, I have sometimes gotten in stories that didn't adhere to the assignment letter (or assignment conversation) but instead were adhering to someone else's sense of the story. If I'm informed in advance so that I can make a decision far before the deadline, I'd say my experience is often the story comes out better than planned.

However sometimes I just need what's been assigned and it doesn't come in that way. I usually start my investigation by going back over the letter or my notes, and I would say a good deal of the time it's because I was unclear as an editor about what I wanted out of the pitch.

There are sometimes writers who don't turn in what's assigned and sure, eventually they don't get the assignments. But I have to tell you that in my experience, this is much more rare than that there was a problem in how the piece was assigned in the first place.

Just sayin' It's a pet peeve of mine that teachers often get the latitude to be as unclear as they like and still blame the students, whereas editors get fired for that. It's a joint responsibility - among adults.

[Momily]

Originally Posted by GuildJenn

Off topic alert: I'm an editor and I'm not sure I see the correlation here between drawing a picture with freckles (probably age spots) and fabricating information as a journalist.

Like most editors, I have sometimes gotten in stories that didn't adhere to the assignment letter (or assignment conversation) but instead were adhering to someone else's sense of the story. If I'm informed in advance so that I can make a decision far before the deadline, I'd say my experience is often the story comes out better than planned.

However sometimes I just need what's been assigned and it doesn't come in that way. I usually start my investigation by going back over the letter or my notes, and I would say a good deal of the time it's because I was unclear as an editor about what I wanted out of the pitch.

There are sometimes writers who don't turn in what's assigned and sure, eventually they don't get the assignments. But I have to tell you that in my experience, this is much more rare than that there was a problem in how the piece was assigned in the first place.

Just sayin' It's a pet peeve of mine that teachers often get the latitude to be as unclear as they like and still blame the students, whereas editors get fired for that. It's a joint responsibility - among adults.

I'm sorry, I didn't write that part clearly at all. I was responding to a comment that said basically, it's art, you shouldn't tell kids what to draw or place expectations on kids art. My point is that drawing, like writing is a medium for communication. Both can be used for art, and both can be used for other purposes. Sometimes people who are drawing or writing should have a lot of freedom, and other times it's entirely appropriate for others (the teacher, the editor, the customer etc . . . ) to expect to find certain things in someone's drawing or art, such as specific details. If a journalist or scientific illustrator said "it's art, so you can't tell me what to write/draw" I'm guessing they'd be unemployed.

I agree 100% that teachers need to be clear in their assignments. I don't really know, and am not sure that how other people seem to know, whether or not the teacher was. I'm not sure what has been set out in the classroom as general expectations, or what was told for this specific assignment. Perhaps the OP does.

[GuildJenn]

Originally Posted by Momily

I'm sorry, I didn't write that part clearly at all. I was responding to a comment that said basically, it's art, you shouldn't tell kids what to draw or place expectations on kids art. My point is that drawing, like writing is a medium for communication. Both can be used for art, and both can be used for other purposes. Sometimes people who are drawing or writing should have a lot of freedom, and other times it's entirely appropriate for others (the teacher, the editor, the customer etc . . . ) to expect to find certain things in someone's drawing or art, such as specific details. If a journalist or scientific illustrator said "it's art, so you can't tell me what to write/draw" I'm guessing they'd be unemployed.

I agree 100% that teachers need to be clear in their assignments. I don't really know, and am not sure that how other people seem to know, whether or not the teacher was. I'm not sure what has been set out in the classroom as general expectations, or what was told for this specific assignment. Perhaps the OP does.

Oh ok, gotcha. I agree that is true when art is work and not play.

[dfunk98]

the assignment was part of the 100th day of school, as a pp mentioned. all the paper said was "draw a picture of what you think you will look like when you are 100 years old". the teacher said that some children drew themselves with canes, blah blah blah. all my dd drew was a face. i believe they were supposed to be age spots or wrinkles or something of the like. i do understand that she feels like this is the beginning of writing. however, i want her to respect my dd's interpretation of the assignment and her choice of medium. she's five years old!!

btw-i just LOVE all the comments being generated on this. it' so great to hear others' (passionate) opinions!!

[peaceful_mama]

Hmmm well I would tell the teacher if she wants a colored drawing of an entire person---including arms, legs, wheelchair or cane if they think they'll have one, stuff like that, then she needs to SAY SO, in a note home if it's homework, and by talking to the children things like "Do you think you'll have glasses?" "what color do you think your hair might be? Do you think you will *have* hair?" Maybe even show them a picture of an old person or tell them to go home and look at pictures of grandparents, great-grandparents, other "old" relatives, etc etc etc.

My son wouldn't be able to do this in detail without some prompting like that and he was 5 in Oct. He also doesn't draw a lot but writes a lot.

Since she didn't say that, I think a face with wrinkles or age spots is perfectly appropriate. Drawn in pencil if that's what she felt like doing, since nothing else was specified or encouraged.

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by dfunk98

i just got a message today from dd's teacher about a homework assignment dd had turned in. she was to draw a picture of what she thinks she will look like at 100 years old. the teacher returned it with a question mark. i replied in a note that it was a picture of dd's face with "lots freckles". the teacher called in response to my note. she said she wouldn't have been able to tell it was a face (it looked like a face to me and-obviously dd) because it was all in pencil, with no details drawn in crayon. i didn't see anything wrong with the picture being entirely in pencil. she said this type of work is acceptable in sept. or oct., but now that we are in march, she should be using more details. i was thinking of requesting a meeting with her to have her define more clearly what she expects of dd. needless to say, i am feeling very anxious over the whole situation.

i just wanted to know if anyone else had this kind of issue ever. tia!!

Originally Posted by dfunk98

i wrote the teacher a note letting her know i'd like to speak to her further regarding what is expected of dd at school. she called me this morning and we hashed things out. i'm still not really happy about the way she addresses the picture, in general, but she pretty much said the same thing Momily said, that this is a pre-writing exercise, which is why she wanted more detail. she felt that dd would not be able to "retell" the story, if she didn't know/remember what the picture was. i, however, think that dd did know what she drew, even if the teacher did not, but i digress. i guess the teacher felt that if dd used crayons, the details of eyes/nose/mouth would be more pronounced. i told her that when i drew as a child, i almost always used pencil, so i did not occur to me to offer her crayons. she was happy with the medium she was using, so i didn't challenge it. the picture was just face. it took up the whole page. it did have hair, eyes, nose and a mouth, however the "freckles" were large circles that covered the remainder of the face. i could see how the teacher might have overlooked the facial features, but come on-dig a little deeper!!
what it boiled down to is that dd has some fine motor issues, for which she goes to ot for 1x/week, and the teacher is not seeing a great improvement. i agree, her writing is not much better. however, the teacher said that dd has all the skills she should (letter/number recognition, letter sound recognition, rhyming, etc) just not the tools to apply them. meaning she has trouble writing and conveying her thoughts. we decided we will both encourage her to write and check-in in a few weeks.
the teacher said this kind of thing improves with age and she just needs to build her fine motor strength. yesterday, coloring a homework sheet, dd said her arm hurt, so i know this is a problem. i just wish i knew how to help her more.

I'll leave aside whether the teacher adequately communicated her expectations, and later her concerns, about the assignment. I agree that's important, and worth discussing with the teacher. I'd rather focus on the child in this scenario, and the difficulty with written expression. It seems to me that the teacher has identified a problem and that's what's really at issue here.

I have a child with similar issues, and I've known quite a few others. Yes, it's demonstrated both in drawing and other artistic efforts, as well as writing. In the earlier primary grades, before there are lengthy or intensive writing assignments, these kinds of developmental problems are often first identified because the child is turning in sketchy, poorly detailed artistic work.

Early identification is helpful to the child and the parents. It certainly avoids the tension that may arise in later grades when writing assignments become more intensive. Parents who don't realize what is happening often think a child is being lazy or obstructionist because s/he writes a couple of sentences instead of completing the page-long story. The child thinks s/he is stupid and starts to dislike school.

For a child with problems, it isn't at all helpful to focus on the shortcomings of the teacher, or debate whether a particular drawing has artistic merit. The artistic merit is kinda beside the point. Even if the child has an amazing talent to convey information in a few pencil strokes (I'm thinking Picasso's drawing of the dove), if the teacher is concerned about a pattern of poorly detailed written work - in art and in writing - it's an issue to be addressed squarely. Because that lack of detail is going to become a big problem in a couple of years when the writing demands at school increase. I wish we had had a teacher in the early grades who was more on top of the problem.

Let me repeat that - the artistic merit is beside the point. It's the pattern of lack of detail that is an ongoing issue.

The OT is probably focusing on fine motor skills, but there is often an underlying problem with gross motor skills and core body weakness as well. If the core muscles fatigue quickly, there is no support necessary for prolonged fine motor work. Swimming and dance are both enjoyable methods of developing core muscle strength.

It's also worth noting that it isn't always just a motor issue - neurologically, there is a lot that happens between the intake of information, organizing and formulating a response and writing it out on paper.

There are all sorts of accommodations that can help in later grades - keyboarding instead of writing by hand, oral presentations, video reports, extension of time to hand in work or complete exams....

Since "lack of detail" was a routine, persistent issue, no matter what kind of writing assignment he had, we made it a habit to ask ds whether there was enough detail in his work. He's learned to assess for himself the gap between what in his head and what's on paper. Yes, clear expectations from the teacher help, but really, if a kid routinely puts the bare minimum on paper (or even less!) then you can rest assured it won't hurt his learning or his grades to ask him to expand a little more. If it's more work than the teacher wanted (HIGHLY UNLIKELY), the teacher will either ignore it or give some positive feedback.

Good luck, OP. My ds is almost finished his high school career and we're still encouraging him to add detail to his written work. Thanks to recognition and intervention, he has always had very good report cards (sometimes straight A's) though, so don't get discouraged.

[Tigerle]

ollyoxenfree, I wish you were a teacher. I realize we've all been ganging up on the teacher for the wrong reasons! All this wealth of helpful and relevant information for the OP - to be conveyed in a question mark...

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by Tigerle

All this wealth of helpful and relevant information for the OP - to be conveyed in a question mark...

Yeah - there's no question that the teacher's feedback was also lacking in detail!! The OP is absolutely entitled to point out the irony to her.

However, since the child is already working with OT, I'm hoping that there has been better feedback attached to other assignments in the past. As well, I hope there's been a series of discussions between the teacher, school support (OT etc.) and parents over the course of the year.

Thanks for your kind thought - I've done a fair amount teaching to adults within other professions, but I've often considered whether traditional teaching in schools was a missed career for me.

[dfunk98]

yes, thank you ollyoxenfree!! dd's teacher sent another note home that she spoke to the ot and she will be speaking to the school's learning coordinator about increasing dd's ot.
dd loves to swim, so maybe enrolling her in a swimming class would be a great way to strengthen her gross motor skills.
thanks for all the input!!

[Tear78]

Originally Posted by Momily

As a Kindergarten teacher, I'm going to take the other side just for a moment.

In the Kindergarten curriculum we use, specific types of drawing is viewed as a way to practice organizing your thoughts for writing down the road. When our kids draw during writer's workshop, we coach them on adding details so you can see action, settings, feelings etc . . . , just as we would coach a first or second grader to add the same things to their writing. If we're in science and we're drawing the stages of a Monarch butterfly, we expect them to use the correct color and location and position of the parts -- if a child turned in a beautiful picture of a butterfly with 10 legs, and purple stars on the wing, I'd say "this is beautiful, but it's not a Monarch, please do it again". If they drew the same picture in the art center, or during art class, or when we're exploring a media rather than communicating science knowlege I'd hang it up.

As far as whether it's "art" I don't necessarily see it that way. Sure drawing can be art -- of course, writing can be art too. But there are also times when we ask a student, or an adult to use writing or drawing to represent a specific piece or set of information, and in those situations it's a reasonable expectation that children do just that. Drawing a picture with "freckles" is the same thing as assigning a paper to a child about "what do you want to be when you grow up" and having the write you a one liner saying "When I grow up I want to be old." As an adult, it's like fabricating information in your newspaper article, or drawing a picture for the instruction manual on how to assemble your new table, and leaving out one of the legs because it looks good to you that way. In both of the situations, the writer/artist would not be able to argue that they were creating "art", they'd be fired.

If my child's teacher called and said "I gave your child an assignment and he rushed through it and didn't give the info I wanted", I'd say "Thanks for letting me know" and have him do a new one at home. I wouldn't be anxious or assume that the teacher wasn't communicating, and I wouldn't be mad with my child, I'd just know that sometimes kids experiment and that I needed to clarify our family's values about taking time and doing work that meets teacher expectations.

As a first grade teacher, I need to second this. I think it is well put. Teachers are given a set curriculum of life skills to teach children, and use every opportunity (including drawings) to assess where a student may need guidance in order to grow. It's their job, and if they don't do it they'll get in trouble. Most teachers have the student's best interest at heart. It's hard to say from the OP (and the teacher's note) what the teacher is concerned about, or even if she is truly "concerned." It sounds like more communication about it is necessary, and hopefully the teacher has a good reason. I know for my part, teachers are often so INCREDIBLY harried in the demands on their mental time during the day, that sometimes it's hard to put more than a quick note on a paper, and sometimes these things slip our minds by the end of the day if they're not super important. I would recommend giving the teacher the benefit of the doubt and calling to try to figure out what she meant. She may have been trying to communicate an area of growth to you during a busy day. I still think there should be official, monthly meetings set up for classroom communities so that parents and teachers can communicate openly. But I also think that teachers give so much of their time already (beyond the school day), that this can be overwhelming. Please, give the teacher the benefit of the doubt and call.

[Tear78]

Originally Posted by dfunk98

yes, thank you ollyoxenfree!! dd's teacher sent another note home that she spoke to the ot and she will be speaking to the school's learning coordinator about increasing dd's ot.
dd loves to swim, so maybe enrolling her in a swimming class would be a great way to strengthen her gross motor skills.
thanks for all the input!!

just saw this...sorry! I'm so glad there was more communication, and steps taken to help!