Changing the flora of the mouth?

[zebrabelly]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but the search doesn't work for me, so please forgive this.

My daughter is going in tomorrow for two crowns and a filling. Again. *sigh* She's been plagued with dental problems since her teeth came in and she had an enamel defect. Her dad has TERRIBLE teeth, but mine are pretty strong, actually. She definitely needs to floss better, and we are going to work on that, but, I never flossed as a kid and did not have these sorts of issues. I suppose it could be genetics, but I would like to try to work on flora before I concede to that. What can we do to be boosting her oral health? Probiotics, I know - anything else?

FTR, she does have some food sensitivities - wheat that we know for sure, likely some undiagnosed ones, too. Could this play into the strength of teeth in any way?

Thanks!

[annasmom]

Fancy meeting you here this evening.
I just read two things that may pertain...one that enamel defects and celiac disease go hand in hand. The thought is that poor nutrient absorption...or one school of thought anyway.
And the other is that Lactobacilus acidophilus (spelling?) was associated with low caries....so maybe just probiotics?

[zebrabelly]

HA, I was thinking I should tell you to go stalk all my old threads in this forum.

Yes, I need to start probiotics with her for sure. I feel like I remember Linda Palmer saying something about how avocados and maybe peppermint tea? help balance the flora of the mouth. I'd like some sort of healing regimen I can try, you know?

Thanks for the tips, K, I'm going to look more into gluten and teeth. I'm not willing to admit yet that M might have actual celiac.

[annasmom]

probiotics

I spent some time at the University of Google this evening and am regretting my decision to give my kids probiotics. Things took a very fast turn for the worse about the same time I started giving them probiotics.

Several of the organisms found in the probiotics I gave them have been found in caries lesions. I know this is only a correlation and not a causation....but
I'm thinking sticking to foods that promote a balance of flora may be a better option than introducing large amounts of particular flora in artificial pill form?

[talia rose]

our family is gluten intolerant and we have definitely noticed a correlation between gluten intolerance and bad teeth. when you eat gluten and are intolerant or have celiac, the linings of your intestines get covered in mucus and from there you become unable to absorb your nutrients. when i was pregnant with my 2nd i ate gluten even though i knew i shouldn't. my daughter had a tooth break and have to be pulled at about 1 1/2 years old. i believe it was rotten due to my eating gluten while pregnant. i stopped once she was born and we had her tested so i am hoping her adult teeth will at least come in strong. my son (17 now) we did not find out he was gluten intolerant until age 2 and he has had 28 cavities and a root canal. my kinisiologist also has a gluten intolerant family and teeth issues as well.

this is another huge reason to do the diet if you suspect.....

[organicmidwestmama]

whether or not a person is tested as actually celiac or even gluten intolerant, i think the anti-nutrients in wheat and other grains can cause malabsorption of vital nutrients and if a person eats a grain-heavy diet, chances are they arent eating a diet high is important fat soluable vitamins. eliminate gluten for sure could help in my opinion. may want to consider eliminating and or reducing all refined grain products too, ie. crackers, bread, noodles, etc.

[LadyCatherine185]

Originally Posted by annasmom

I spent some time at the University of Google this evening and am regretting my decision to give my kids probiotics. Things took a very fast turn for the worse about the same time I started giving them probiotics.

Several of the organisms found in the probiotics I gave them have been found in caries lesions. I know this is only a correlation and not a causation....but
I'm thinking sticking to foods that promote a balance of flora may be a better option than introducing large amounts of particular flora in artificial pill form?

this is something i was wondering about too, as we just had to put my 18 month old under general anesthesia to fill 6+ cavities today! They cavities started right about the time I started giving him probiotics. FTR, he gets no juice, sweets, etc and we always brush his teeth very well (with a flouride toothpaste now...).

[Koalamom]

Originally Posted by annasmom

I spent some time at the University of Google this evening and am regretting my decision to give my kids probiotics. Things took a very fast turn for the worse about the same time I started giving them probiotics.

Several of the organisms found in the probiotics I gave them have been found in caries lesions. I know this is only a correlation and not a causation....but
I'm thinking sticking to foods that promote a balance of flora may be a better option than introducing large amounts of particular flora in artificial pill form?

Would this be the same for food sources of probiotics such as yogurt or kefir?

[Koalamom]

I like the subject of healing the flora of the mouth. I recently listened to a short video of food guru David Wolfe, and he taked about how we continually kill all bad and good bacteria in the mouth with these toxic mouth washes like listerine and scope. Sometimes when people get off those harmful products and switch to natural ones, they can experience teeth/gum issues. Our bodies need a long time to adjust to having the good bacteria take over. During that time we can have dental problems.

Did all that summary make sense? So we need to somehow get off all "killing" dental products or be on them for the rest of our lives, dependent on them.

To replace them, we would need to work on healing or saliva, making it mineral rich and the right Ph and healing our gut. These are just my thought here, so I would love to hear more suggestions on healing the mouth.

Annasmom, I would be really curious about your thought on probiotics being bad. I do think that we need some for rebuilding mouth (gut) flora, do you disagree?

[annasmom]

I did not mean to imply that probiotics are bad, just that, since there seemed to be a correlation in the literature between caries and a few select Lactobacillus sp., I no longer felt confident making the suggestion of probiotic supplements. I am just thinking that giving a child a tablet with a few select organisms may not have the same effect as giving them a serving a fermented food that has a perfect balance of organisms. Or giving them other foods to balance the saliva and promote growth of beneficial organisms.

And also, since there seemed to be a correlation between my daughter taking the probiotic tablets and her decay, I felt even less confident suggesting the probiotics especially since one of the organisms I gave her recently and as a baby was found in caries lesions. Though, just because it was found in the caries does not mean it caused the caries...just that it likes to live there. But being in the vulnerable place that I am, I am grabbing on to anything so I can feel like I have some control and plan a course of action that doesn't involve capping multiple perfectly functional and structurally sound teeth just because the dentist thinks it is just a matter of time. Two teeth need some work, but the latest recommendation was capping 7 due to demineralization

http://iadr.confex.com/iadr/2002SanD...ract_21252.htm

This article said that L. rhamnosus (the one I specifically sought out to give her because of skin and milk issues as a baby) was found in the caries lesions but not in the saliva of those without caries. The common yogurt organisms were not found, according to this study. I don't know what organisms are in kefir. I have not read the full article...I'm just taking the abstract at face value.

AS for the use of microcidal or microstatic agents in our mouths.....my question about xylitol is this...It alters the pH and kills bacteria (my understanding)...Does it kill the bacteria and therefore change the pH because the bacteria are dead? or does the altered pH inhibit the growth of the bacteria? and if it is the latter would it then inhibit only the acid producing bacteria and in turn give a chance for more balanced flora? Or does it just buffer the saliva so that the teeth don't demineralize and then the bacteria have nowhere to grow?

It makes sense to me that any change in flora could cause upset before a balance is achieved. But I just don't think the probiotics I gave her obtained a balance. It think it made a precarious situation worse since she already had demineralization. But again...correlation, not causation...I will never know.

And back to xylitol, regardless of how it works, it does seem to contribute to balance. Then eating mineral rich foods and foods that balance the pH can work while the xylitol halts the bacteria in progress?

[Koalamom]

http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~dna/...tml#microflora
This site breaks down the micro flora in kefir, ( I am amusing they analyze milk kefir, but hope this applies to water kefir since that is what we use.)

LACTOBACILLI

Lactobacillus acidophilus
Lb. brevis [Possibly now Lb. kefiri]
Lb. casei subsp. casei
Lb. casei subsp. rhamnosus
Lb. paracasei subsp. paracasei
Lb. fermentum
Lb. cellobiosus
Lb. delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus
Lb. delbrueckii subsp. lactis
Lb. fructivorans
Lb. helveticus subsp. lactis
Lb. hilgardii
Lb. helveticus
Lb. kefiri
Lb. kefiranofaciens subsp. kefirgranum
Lb. kefiranofaciens subsp. kefiranofaciens
Lb. parakefiri
Lb. plantarum

The only one that matches from your link is the L. fermentum which is the only bacteria in people free of caries. SoI am still sticking to using water kefir!

Just checked out a supplement I have in the fridge from ReNew Life called FLoraMore and it has some of the "bad" bacteria listed for teeth. Guess I wont be using that anymore.

Here is an interesting article:

A New Reason to Smile About Yogurt
Can yogurt and other dairy protect against gum disease?
By D. Milton Stokes, M.S., R.D., EatingWell.com

Yogurt lovers, rejoice! Not only does this nutrient-packed snack help keep your bones strong, new research shows it may also protect against gum disease. Researchers from Japan recently analyzed dietary intakes from nearly 1,000 adults and found those who consumed the highest levels of dairy—specifically yogurt and yogurt-type drinks—had the healthiest gums.

Their report, published earlier this year in the Journal of Periodontology, credits probiotics (a.k.a. "good bacteria") as one possible champion of gum health. Probiotics are live active cultures used to ferment foods, such as yogurt and kefir (fermented milk), and studies suggest that they may improve digestion and boost immunity too. As for gum health, it's not yet clear how much yogurt (or other fermented dairy foods) one needs to consume to reap the benefits, says Yoshihiro Shimazaki, D.D.S., Ph.D., of Kyushu University, the study's lead author.

What is clear, though, is that periodontal disease affects more than one in three American adults. Harmful bacteria accumulate on teeth (as plaque) and eventually harden into tartar, which causes gum tissue to become inflamed. Experts believe that probiotics may help to counter growth of the "unfriendly" bacteria in the mouth.

Maintaining good oral health isn't just an issue of aesthetics. Left unchecked, gum disease may elevate a person's risk for heart attack and stroke, Shimazaki explains. One theory is that bacteria in the mouth infiltrate the bloodstream, causing inflammation in the arteries, which increases risk for heart disease.

Bottom line: Probiotic-rich yogurt may keep your gums—and therefore your heart—healthy. So raise that yogurt smoothie in a toast to good health.

[Koalamom]

As for the xylitol, I am still not going to use it just because it is a processed sugar and it has been found that any processed sugar can prevent bacteria growth. I just think that if you start using xylitol, your body could become dependent on it just like scope and listerine (just not to the extreme of toxicity they are)

If you find anywhere where xylitol nourishes the mouth, please post because long term that is what we want. I really don't know how xylitol works. Perhaps if you are dealing with cavities at the moment and need a handle on the bad bacteria, xylitol may be for you. I am still wanting to learn more about it...

[Koalamom]

Are you kidding me!? I just looked up my favorite brand of cultures and the have to of the strains found in people with cavities:
http://www.gardenoflife.com/Products...9/Default.aspx

My dd did developed 2 cavities after I supplemented her with this, before that we just ate yogurt. We ran out of the bottle and switched to yogurt and kefir and after that we did see the cavities healed and the dentist confirmed it. I am really thinking there is something to this bacteria thing, but the right ones.

[Koalamom]

Here is a great bottled probiotic that is not factory made and has only good strains:
http://www.gobeyondorganic.com/Probi...er-Garden.html

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by annasmom

I'm thinking sticking to foods that promote a balance of flora may be a better option than introducing large amounts of particular flora in artificial pill form?

And I'd address stomach acid related to nutrient bio-availability and food intolerances due to nutrient deficiencies.

We capped 4 of ds's primary teeth, plus had one extracted. Wish I'd learned more about the nutrient process before having it done!

When they cap a tooth, they remove a huge portion of the intact tooth in order to fit the cap. They are UNABLE to completely remove all bacteria under the cap. All root canals and caps eventually have bacterial contamination/regrowth. [I no longer have current links but this is what we learned both from researching, and after the infection reappeared UNDER the caps which were placed with general anesthesia and $5000 for the oral surgery (which I'd recommend in hospital not in office due to sedation risks). ]

For baby teeth, I'd focus on maintaining mastication ability, and perhaps removing the portion of decay and do temporary fillings or ozone treatment, and bide time until the permanent teeth come in. I would not drill and fill under GA or in office after all we've learned.

I'd address food intolerances through nutrition to address the saliva ph and microflora. Whole food probiotics are critical to balanced microbials in the mouth, stomach, small intestines and colon, lungs, skin etc.


Pat

[zebrabelly]

Sorry I haven't got back to this yet... Busy busy busy!

FTR, my daughter is gluten-free and has been for nearly 7 months now. But she still is having some gut issues (belly aches, poo problems, etc). SO we removed dairy and more recently (about a month now) all casein as well. But I know there are 100,000,000 more things she could be sensitive to and I am not at all sure where to go from here.

We will be going back to acupuncture this week so I am hoping that will help in balancing things as well. Our acupuncturist is big on herbs, too, for healing.

I think I've seen coconut kefir, haven't I? Would that be good for the kind of probiotics I want for her? What does kefir taste like? Will my picky girl like it? If not, is it something I could make into a smoothie or something?

Thanks!

[WuWei]

I'm glad to send you some water kefir grains. (I'm regrowing some now and should have more in a week or so.)

Water kefir is dairy-free. The water kefir tastes like lemonade and you only need a tablespoon to have HUGE microbial benefits. We just add it to juice or smoothies.

I'd also suggest pureeing a tablespoon of cabbage in the smoothie. Or consider Bubbies sauerkraut, just a forkful with meals improves stomach acid and nutrient absorption. Or just a bit of sauerkraut juice with meals even.


Here is a lot more information on gut healing. Where to start? Help 101


Pat

[zebrabelly]

What does it take to make my own kefir? But water kefir does sound intriguing, I may take you up on that.

I have been wanting to make my own saurkraut.

OH, but it's made with whey, right? I mean, I know I can make my own without it, but if I were to buy some, it would most likely have whey? How much does that affect a dairy-sensitive gut? Particularly one that is currently 100% casein-free while we let her system cleanse itself of the stuff?

I'll check that link - thanks!

[WuWei]

Water kefir is like making lemonade.

Whey is not necessary to ferment vegetables.


Pat

[Koalamom]

Originally Posted by zebrabelly

What does it take to make my own kefir? But water kefir does sound intriguing, I may take you up on that.

I have been wanting to make my own saurkraut.

OH, but it's made with whey, right? I mean, I know I can make my own without it, but if I were to buy some, it would most likely have whey? How much does that affect a dairy-sensitive gut? Particularly one that is currently 100% casein-free while we let her system cleanse itself of the stuff?

I'll check that link - thanks!

I was so afraid of a new ferment and had no idea as to how to make it, but it is so easy to make water kefir. And it is so yummy, my 3 yr old loves it.