very close to trying CIO, I need some support/reassurance/help

[Meal]

New to the forum

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Hi there,
My name is Meghan. I am a new momma of a 7.5 month old beautiful little girl named Aine ( pr. Anya). I am an avid reader of mothering magazine, so I thought I'd jump on here for more advice.

I look forwrad to exploring the forum, but my main reason for joining the forum now is that I have some sleep issues with my little girl. I feel like I have asked advice on this to anyone and everyone, so maybe someone out there can help as well.

My husband and I are trying to raise Aine in an AP household, but I'm about a day or two away to letting her cry it out. I need some immediate support and hopefully help on how I can get her to sleep better.

a little bit about our current situation.

Aine has never slept in a crib. She mostly bed shares with us, however in order to get her to sleep she needs to be swaddled, rocked in arms, and must have loud punk/rock music playing. She usually sleeps her first few hours in her swing then we move to the bed with her when we go to sleep.
At one time she did sleep for about a 5 hour stretch and then up every 2-3 hours, but in the past two months, her longest stretch is about 2.5-3 hours and then she is up about every hour at night. She nurses to fall back asleep.

I think because I am at work all day, she likes her mom time at night. I like bed sharing, but I'm so horribly tired and I really don't know how I will be able to function much longer with waking up every hour during the night.

She is a very persistant baby and we have had no success trying to but her down in her crib, she usually naps in the swing or in a carrier.

Does this sound familiar to anyone else? I would love suggestions on how to get through this.

Thansk in advance

Meghan

[Super~Single~Mama]

How much does she nap during the day? If she's not worn out at the end of the day she won't sleep all that great.

Also, is she teething? At that age sleep was tough b/c of teething - we had to resort to baby Motrin or Tylenol on the bad nights!

[Just1More]

It's so hard to be tired! My ds was the WORST. Not only was he awake all night, but he was screaming. . I nearly lost "it", whatever "it" is, on more than one occasion. He's a sweet guy now, who sleeps through the night almost always, and has reliably since 20 months or so.

My first baby probably falls somewhere on the Aspberger's spectrum. I've never had her tested, but, especially when she was small, she had just about every.single.symptom. But I didn't know it. What I know now about her, since she learned to talk, was that she was very, very scared of lots and lots of things. There was no way I could have known that when she was an infant, and it would make me ill to think I had made her CIO in terror just because I was tired. She was also HUNGRY. She is almost 5 now, and still has a very high metabolism. When she started eating solids, she would eat like a horse, and STILL nursed every other hour around the clock. At 15 months she could regularly eat TWO plates FULL of ADULT portions. And she was a skinny baby. So, I could have left her hungry and scared...I'm SO thankful I stuck it out.

Dc2 was a screamer from the time he was just a few days old. He would arch and scream and push and flail. He would not be swaddled. He would not be held. He would not be put down. I could not walk down the street without him screaming uncontrollably. He hardly slept day or night. He would only be comforted swinging while being held on our yard swing, or by being bounced vigorously up and down. And he was about the most stubborn little guy most people we know had every met. He was TOUGH. And, he has a wheat allergy, and his belly hurt him a lot. He also has issues with low blood sugar that really make him cranky. I could have made him suffer in agony ALONE. But I didn't. I'm so glad I held him. I'm so thankful I didn't do that to him.

I could have CIO'd with them, and I could have slept. But, at what cost? I couldn't know their true needs until they were big enough to tell me. What if another baby has a NEED, and I CIO? How would I feel about that?

So, with dc3, who was so happy to be nursed and laid down...there was NO way I could even SORTA see a need to do CIO. I mean, why? It's totally unneccessary. A happy baby sleeps. And the rest need their Mamas.

My suggestions for your baby include...

1.) Try to establish a routine. I do this by following and documenting my baby's cues for several days. You'll get a feel for how often she is hungry, needing a change, and when she typically naps, etc. Once you have a good feel for what she usually does, and her body's needs, you can begin to slowly, and gently tweak it to make things easier for you, too.

Be sure she is nursing plenty and around the clock to prevent hunger AND thirst. Sometimes a baby who demands to nurse all the time, yet doesn't nurse for long, may just be thirsty. Try letting your dh give her a bit of water in a cup in the middle of the night. Also, if you suspect she is thirsty, try turning on a humidifier. It could be she's breathing through her mouth and gets dried out.

If she is hungry, which is more than possible, you could try to feed her a few minutes before she normally wakes up. After you do that for a few nights, try stretching the times between when YOU wake her up a little bit, maybe just 5 minutes more a night. The idea is to "reset" her internal clock a bit. So, first you disrupt it, and make her dependant on you waking her up, then you start to increase the time a little until you are able to drop a feeding completely.

Be sure your foremilk and hindmilk balance is correct. You may also want to try an elimination diet to see if anything in your diet is bothering her. Not wanting to sleep lying down sounds like belly trouble to me. Read a bit about allergies and their manifestations in infants. Eliminating a dietary issue often brings about HUGE changes. Ds would go from near constant screaming to sitting quietly on my lap within 4 days. It was AMAZING.

Then evaluate how much sleep she is getting. At that age, I believe 15 hours a day is the rough goal. Try "offering" a nap no more than 2 hours from the last time she woke up. You may be suprised that she sleeps more, and then will sleep better at night. She might be overtired. You can also try putting her to bed an hour earlier, and then an hour later to see if either makes a difference.

2.) Consider a sensory processing issue. Since she likes to be bounced, swaddled, and listen to loud music to go to sleep, she may be a "seeker". Look up ways to provide some of that physical need in play, and she may calm down some.

3.)Is she getting teeth or working on a new skill? Frequently periods of disrupted sleep precede a jump in development. You can try to be sure to give her plenty of opportunity to practice pulling up or whatever to try to shorten the time it takes her to master it, thus returning to normal sleep sooner.

4.) Is she too hot or too cold at night? Would she prefer different pajamas? My little ones are often too hot in our beds, and sleep in a onesie or large t-shirt (2 or 3T). More than that and they are too warm to be comfortable.

If you read sleep books, or articles on the mainstream method of sleep, you'll find many of them say that the babies go through periods of waking at night again. They advise you to ignore them, let them CIO and they will, within a few nights, start sleeping again. The amusing, and sad, thing to me is that I comfort my babies for a few nights, and they start sleeping again. CIO is just not needed.

Babies NEED something. If they aren't eating/sleeping/playing normally, do your best to figure out WHY. CIO is just a harsh way of ignoring their NEEDS.

You CAN do this. It WILL be worth it.

[Meal]

thank you for the support and suggestions. She is my first and I feel like everything I do is wrong or against the norm, and even though I don't want to question myself, I find that I constantly am.

She may be teething, she has her bottom two front teeth, she got them around 4.5 mo. So it is possible she is teething. She does nap and is usually easier to get down to a nap then at bedtime.

she usually takes three naps a day, one about 1.5 hrs after she gets up in teh morning, one midday and then one late afternoon, usually 1-2 hrs in length a piece.

Her nursing lately has been very frequent but very short, I don't feel like she is getting a lot and she hasn't been eating taht well out of a bottle when I'm at work. We recently started her on solids, but she is really more in the exploratory stage versus actually eating. It is more about playing with the food thus far.

I worry about the swaddling because I think that could overheat her, and/or I worry if she will ever be able to go to sleep without it, or how will I know when to stop swaddling her? I worry about a lot of things.

It might be something I'm eating, I'll have to look up something on elimination diets. When she was really little (a few weeks old), I did no dairy because I was having a great difficulty BF, but it didn't seem to change anything. I try to avoid caffeine, eat a lot of protein, avoid wheat heavy products just in case. But I do do a lot of dairy (mainly eggs and cheese).

I'll look into a sensory processing issue. I don't know how you categorize "seeker", but she is an extremely alert baby, she will be all but asleep and see something in the corner of her eye and wake up completely. She is constantly looking around and trying to figure out new things.


Do you think I should be worried about ther need to be swaddled still? Or the loud music playing? Or the swing? I just don't want to do anything that might harm her. And while my Doc is fairly open to different perspectives, his response is that she should be in her own room, and that sleeping in a different room from us will somehow eliminate her waking up and/or need to be swaddled.


Thanks for the advice thus far

[Louisep]

I have so been there, done that mama. Sleep deprivation is the worst thing I've ever experienced in my life. It's a form of torture. There is so much I want to say to you, I don't know where to start. Please hold off on CIO until you've read posts on here and in the archives, there are things you can try and somehow time passes by and it gets better.

I must say, nothing but time helped us, BUT check out The No Cry Sleep Solution by Elizabeth Pantley. It's a very easy read and has lots of good suggestions. In particular, there are some methods to cut down on the frequency of breastfeeds and that sounds pertinent to your situation.

You say your daughter is intense, I think many poor sleepers are - mine is (from reading the posts on here, it seems like almost all poor sleepers are on the high needs spectrum). In these cases, it is very unlikely that CIO will even work.

7-9 months is the ABSOLUTE WORST for sleep. Most of the mamas on here calling out for help have babies around that age, and I was one of them! There is so much going on for them and I think intense babies are unable to switch off at night.

I think you need to try and find ways to get more sleep. It will make you feel so much better. Can your DH take over some of the night-time parenting? Even a block of 3 hours will make you feel better. What time do you have to be at work? When does your LO wake up? Can you steal even an hour in the morning by having your DH take your LO when she wakes? Do you catch up at the weekend by having a morning lie-in?

You will get through this. There are certainly things you can look into (food intolerances) and things you can try (like the "Pantley pull-off" in the NCSS and having your DH take over some of the night), but sometimes it just takes time. We are down from waking every 1-2 hours all night between 7 and 11 months to waking 2-3 times a night. Not sure if that will make you feel better but I've learned to manage my sleep and I feel absolutely fine (mostly).

[To-Fu]

And while my Doc is fairly open to different perspectives, his response is that she should be in her own room, and that sleeping in a different room from us will somehow eliminate her waking up and/or need to be swaddled.

Just remember, your doctor is an expert on medical problems, not parenting.

I second the book and routine suggestions, plus having your husband take on some of the nighttime resposibilities so you can get some rest. If all else fails, time will slowly do its thing for you. I found that (like other posters) the solution was more about finding ways to meet my sleep needs rather than finding some sort of magical solution for my son.

And here are some links with more info that will hopefully help you step away from the CIO ledge :

http://askdrsears.com/html/10/handout2.asp
http://drbenkim.com/articles-attachment-parenting.html
http://www.nospank.net/fleiss2.htm
http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/pinky_mckay.html

Hang in there, mama. You're not alone, and everything is so much harder when you're sleep deprived, I know.

[Just1More]

Eating little bits and pulling off frequently is a classic teething symptom. Try letting her drink ice water, or somehow soothe her gums before offering to nurse. It can turn into a vicious cycle.

She's hungry, she tries to nurse, it hurts, she lets go, she's frustrated, she's hungry, she tries to nurse...then she gives up for an hour or so...then she's hungry and the cycle starts over.

We do this OVER and OVER and OVER when they are teething. Even if there is no actual sign of a tooth in there. Then, one day, they suddenly start nursing again for a normal amount of time. And sleeping.

I don't think there is any reason not to swaddle. Actually, for about 6 weeks I swaddled my 10 months old again because she was just SO busy all the time. It was like she needed help to turn off, and the swaddling did it.

I think the best parenting advice I ever received was "you just do what you can, and when you can't, stop. They'll adjust."

So...let her be swaddled, swing, whatever. She'll outgrow it, or your ability to do it will (like, the blanket will get to small, or she will outweigh the swing.) You'll have a pretty tough night or two or week, and then she'll move on to new things and it will be over.

So, just do what works. There's no magic formula for the perfect kid.

And there's no magic formula for a perfect AP household either. Remember that the heart of AP simply is to RESPOND TO THE NEEDS OF THE CHILD. And children have different needs. It's not a checklist of do's and don'ts.

[Just1More]

One more really random thing. How's your supply? You might want to try upping it with oatmeal or something. (Cookies count )

And...mine start to reject nursing when I am pg, and I feel more tired and sensitive to the night wakings. Is there any chance...?

[chocolatefish]

just another couple of suggestions...

Do you think she could go down to only 2 naps a day? DS was down to that by 6 months. Maybe slightly less sleep during the day would lead to an easier bedtime?

Could you replace the loud music with a white noise machine (I'm guessing it's the same effect she's looking for)? Or gradually turn it down a notch every night so she doesn't notice it fading? All her props will fade as she grows older but I think the loud music would get me down more than the nursing / rocking etc!

"you just do what you can, and when you can't, stop. They'll adjust." I agree with this 100%. there's a lot you can do before CIO becomes 'necessary' (if it ever is)

[RunningMomTegan]

Originally Posted by Just1More

And there's no magic formula for a perfect AP household either. Remember that the heart of AP simply is to RESPOND TO THE NEEDS OF THE CHILD. And children have different needs. It's not a checklist of do's and don'ts.

THIS. I finally tried self-soothing with my 21 month old because I was TOO TIRED AND PREGNANT to rock him for 45 minutes.

What an epic failue. Even with me there, rubbing his back and humming, he was angry and would not settle. Then for the next week, he was more clingy than I've ever known him to be.

Now, I lay down next to him in bed for 10 minutes and he's out.

I've also known WONDERFUL attachment parents whose child with sensory issues couldn't fall asleep EXCEPT by themselves. Someone else was too distracting. Good luck figuring out what your little girl needs to get the sleep she needs.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by Just1More

One more really random thing. How's your supply? You might want to try upping it with oatmeal or something. (Cookies count )

And...mine start to reject nursing when I am pg, and I feel more tired and sensitive to the night wakings. Is there any chance...?

There is a GREAT recipe for oatmeal raisin cookies on the quaker website! I think they are called Vanishing Oatmeal Raisin cookies, but I replace the raisins with chocolate chips b/c I like them better. BEST way too up your supply! So yummy....

Hang in there mama! Sleep at this age is tough, and you will get through it!

[sgeiger]

hang in there!

I totally hear you and have been through this, twice now, so I hear you and feel your pain! the decision is yours, trust your instincts, listen to yourself only you know what is right for your baby.

What worked for me with my oldest, my daughter, was to have my husband take care of her in the night for a few nights. she didn't resist his comfort, fell back to sleep, sucked her thumb (was already doing that self-soothing) while I slept in another room for a few nights. After 3 days, she only woke once at 3am.

My second, my son, is WAY more needy/intense, and not a self soother, but he's amazing. He needs to be cuddled up next to me all night long, and just a few days ago, at 6 months, has finally let me have more than a 45 minute stretch at night with my husband before crying for me to come cuddle and nurse him all night long.

What I think is working this time is breaking the latch before he's totally asleep. Read Pantley's book for the whole idea, which I'm only partially using (I'm not holding his chin closed) but just when he slows down and goes from sucking/swallowing to light comfort nursing, i poke my finger in there and stay otherwise completely still (he wakes with any movement) and then he is learning to settle himself and finish the process himself. At first he would root for me and wake up so I'd nurse him again, and keep doing it. I think it is working, and this is after he was waking 6-10 times each night, sometimes every hour to nurse.

Other practical co-sleeping things that really helped are the turtleneck with a line cut up the middle of the front for easy access and warmth. this way there is one less thing you have to do when you wake (shifting shirts and blankets!). And DONT look at the clock. Just don't, all it does is add frustration. If you don't know how long it was since she last nursed, and how many times (1, 3am, 4am, etc.) maybe it won't make you as upset. You will still be tired, but not resentful or angry. I love sleeping with my little guy, and needed more sleep, and I think you can have both.

GOOD LUCK!!

[Just1More]

Hey...the turtleneck idea is great! I've been sleeping in a nursing tank and zip up sweatshirt, unzipped, no ties, since dd was born and find that tremendously helpful, too!

[Meal]

Thank you

Originally Posted by sgeiger

And DONT look at the clock. Just don't, all it does is add frustration. If you don't know how long it was since she last nursed, and how many times (1, 3am, 4am, etc.) maybe it won't make you as upset.

I just wanted to thank you all for your support and words of wisdom. In the last 5 nights we have had two really good nights (waking every 3-4 hrs) and two pretty bad nights ( up every 45 minutes or so, with a wide awake period for about 2 hrs), but overall I think she is getting the hang of it. The hardest part is not knowing what kind of night I am going to have.

Thank you for reminding me to trust my instincts. Every time I think I get to a "breaking" point, something seems to change slightly. So thanks for getting me through those few tough decision making days.

I am now trying not to focus on how long or what time, and go with the flow(easier said than done) but I do think that that she can sense my frustration, so anything to help me calm down will hopefully help the situation.

Anyways thanks again everyone!

Meghan

[Violet2]

Haven't read all the replies but...

1. You stop swaddling when it won't hold them anymore. They learn to sleep without it in a day or two. I was terrified when swaddling ended (at 10mos) but it was no big deal. At some point as a new parent, you remember the lesson that everything is transient; the good and the bad. This too shall pass. The horror doesn't last long, but neither do the super fun phases.

ETA: There's a physiological basis for swaddling--the pressure helps quiet the nervous system which in turn enables sleep.

2. Lovey. Does your baby have a lovey? I would strongly suggest pushing the lovey asap. This gives them a comfort besides mom and will help with transitioning to their own bed if that's what you decide to do.

3. Sleep sucks at this age until about 1ish in my experience. Between the teething and the motor development parents are just s.o.l. I'm sorry. But you're past the half way mark! Try to remember that!

4. Dream feed. Are you topping baby's tummy off before you go to bed? Just pick baby up and latch 'em on. Even asleep, they'll nurse and fill up so they don't wake up at 1am and you get a longer stretch of sleep. This was one of the best tactics for our family and I regret we did not discover it sooner.

5.Consider a pacifier if you aren't using one now, that can sometimes lengthen sleep.

6.If it's teething and you're desperate use Motrin and Tylenol. Teething is often painful--remember your worst toothache?--so give baby some relief at night so they can sleep which means you will sleep.

7.It's okay to let them fuss with you right there or nearby. You can do some gentle sleep 'learning' but it won't be without protest. Just because a new routine makes a baby cry does not mean you should stop or that the change isn't a good idea for the baby, it's just that change is stressful but worth it. Try the No Cry Sleep Solution book for suggestions. I found that it generally took 2-3 days for DD to get used to a new routine so give any new routines at least 3 days before reassessing.

8. On the weekends, defer all housework and childcare to your DP and SLEEP ALL DAY LONG until the worst has passed. Ask grandma to visit and both of you stay in bed and SLEEP ALL DAY LONG.

Hope these ideas are of some help.

[simplykate]

I don't have any advice, but just wanted to say that I'm going through the same thing with my almost nine month old - and all the suggestions are very helpful!
I think I'll check out the No Cry Sleep Solution.

[dachshund mom]

I want to second the dropping a nap idea. DD dropped to two 45min naps by 6 months. I thought that was pretty typical.

[blimbrick]

I feel your pain!

Meghan,
I totally feel your pain, except my DS's nightwakings are getting worse instead of better. He also has a 2 hour period where he's either awake or tossing and turning and can't fall asleep, between 3-5 usually, and I have to get ready for work at 4:40! The last time he slept more than 45 mins was this past weekend. I find it very difficult to work and hold an intelligent conversation anymore. I posted a new thread this morn with similar issues, but with A LOT more detail, because he has had a similar sleeping issue before, and it went away after about a month and a half, but started again within a week or 2. I think I'm going to try the elimination diet, although it seems there are no food allergy issues. The only other thing I can think of is that something is bothering the babes at night that they can ignore during the day because they are so active. Is your daughter extremely active or super-sensitive?
Oh-and as far as dropping naps, I know my DS cannot do that right now, he falls apart if he doesn't nap after 2-2 1/2 hrs. Sometimes he has a lot of trouble going down for one of his naps, so I figure he'll drop one himself when he's ready.