Need Feedback On These Arguement That non-Vaxed Kids Are a Threat

[NewCrunchyDaddy]

My wife received the following links as proof that our non-vaccinated children are a threat. We are reading them and would appreciate some feedback from some of you mamas who know more about this kind of thing than we do.



http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/...nes06_CV_N.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/21/us/21vaccine.html

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/571876

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-a..._b_160018.html

And the study referred to by huffpo:
aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/168/12/1389

http://www.jstor.org/pss/29510813

http://www.eurosurveillance.org/View...&OrderNumber=1

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=15837364

Thank you for any assistance!

[NewCrunchyDaddy]

Also, this:

http://www.drwile.com/lnkpages/render.asp?vac_effective

[claddaghmom]

For yourself, what are you wondering? Are you delving into the subject just to learn more? Why is someone sending these links to you and how do you feel obligated to respond?

I have a friend who herds sheep. She has a great take on "herd immunity"


"Herd immunity is when all my sheep get sick. And the weak die. Then everyone is immune."

I've always been amazed at the way people twisted herd immunity in relation to vaccines. It seems, as with so many things in the vaccine debate, to be touched with raw irony.

[AustinMom]

Personally, I feel vaxed kids are a threat to my non-vax kid. Vaxed kids, of what I know, can still be carriers of the bacteria of diseases like rotovirus, so when it comes to putting my son in a nursery, say for church for instance, a vaxed kid carrying the virus, has infected all they toys and such, making my kid more likely to get sick. If the vaxed kids were not vaxed, their parents would know when they are sick, and keep them out of the nursery. This is the same thing with schools. Like the Flu too, you know when you kids are sick, so you then keep them away from other kids, and they become immune to that strand.

Luckily, we do echinacea supplements, and his immune system now is as strong as a horse! (knock on wood)

But, yes, herd immunity is taken out of context. And just to let you know, small pox did not go out of existence due to to vaccines. That is a myth, and there is a huge long video on line talking about that with people who worked to extinguish it. The only way to make make us safer from diseases is to make us tougher, and that is not through a magic shot or pill, sorry for all those who believe that.

[claddaghmom]

Originally Posted by AustinMom

Personally, I feel vaxed kids are a threat to my non-vax kid. Vaxed kids, of what I know, can still be carriers of the bacteria of diseases like rotovirus, so when it comes to putting my son in a nursery, say for church for instance, a vaxed kid carrying the virus, has infected all they toys and such, making my kid more likely to get sick. If the vaxed kids were not vaxed, their parents would know when they are sick, and keep them out of the nursery. This is the same thing with schools. Like the Flu too, you know when you kids are sick, so you then keep them away from other kids, and they become immune to that strand.

Luckily, we do echinacea supplements, and his immune system now is as strong as a horse! (knock on wood)

But, yes, herd immunity is taken out of context. And just to let you know, small pox did not go out of existence due to to vaccines. That is a myth, and there is a huge long video on line talking about that with people who worked to extinguish it. The only way to make make us safer from diseases is to make us tougher, and that is not through a magic shot or pill, sorry for all those who believe that.

That's how I feel about Pertussis. It's supposed to make the sickness subclinical.

[Tracy]

Personally I would not engage in those conversations. (Anyone who is emailing your wife needs to be put on the back burner.) I have two people in my life who have braindamaged children from vaccines. It is undeniable, they were both advised to sue the pharms and neither chose to do it because they needed to focus on their children. This is a known reaction and it is listed on the insert by the pharm. ..ie. Brain damage is a possible side effect.

those who are emailing your wife are betting on herd and fear the disease.
Others like myself would rather take on the disease than a possible brain damage reaction.

And by the way...

Here are the hard numbers for 2009. This is what I found for the last week of the year... http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5851md.htm

.. this is the total amount of cases reported to the CDC for 2009.....

Total reported cases to the cdc:

Disease Cases

Diptheria 0
Measles 61
Mumps 977
Rubella 4
Congenital rubella 1
Tetanus 12
Hib (under 5)
Sero b-21
Non sero b-201
Unknown b-213


So, the breakthrus in the 'herd' from the non vaxed is hardly overwhelming.

and how many people have children damaged from vaccines? yeah, no one wants to think about that. whatever.

I say don't engage with them. blech.

[Arduinna]

Yeah, I don't waste my time engaging in those convos. They aren't going to get anywhere anyway.

[Marnica]

I agree with PP's. Save your breath and concentrate on educating yourselves aboutthe diseases and the vaccines meant to prevent them and the risks and benefits of both. It's the kind of people that send unsolicited links to others needing to "prove" they are correct that are close minded about this subject. No matter what response your wife crafts, chances are it will fall on deaf ears as this person has already made it their mission to show you how wornd you are and how right they are.

[ammiga]

Was this sent from a friend and you are hoping to keep your friendship together by showing them that your kids are not a threat? Or is this simply sent by someone who is concerned?

I can understand wanting to respond to the person if you are trying to save a friendship. I have a friend who was worried about her own children being around my non-vaxxed dd. We talked a bit about it. I couldn't just blow off her concerns without a serious risk of losing a 20-year friendship. Not because she didn't respect my right to make a choice and she didn't like me anymore, but because we would never be able to have our families get together.

If this is just a nosy friend or relative, I would let them know that you are well researched on the subject and if they are interested in reading why you decided not to vax, they can let you know and you are happy to give them some research to get started on. And in the same regard, you will let them know if/when you are interested in their research.

[SunshineJ]

Originally Posted by ammiga

Was this sent from a friend and you are hoping to keep your friendship together by showing them that your kids are not a threat? Or is this simply sent by someone who is concerned?

I can understand wanting to respond to the person if you are trying to save a friendship. I have a friend who was worried about her own children being around my non-vaxxed dd. We talked a bit about it. I couldn't just blow off her concerns without a serious risk of losing a 20-year friendship. Not because she didn't respect my right to make a choice and she didn't like me anymore, but because we would never be able to have our families get together.

If this is just a nosy friend or relative, I would let them know that you are well researched on the subject and if they are interested in reading why you decided not to vax, they can let you know and you are happy to give them some research to get started on. And in the same regard, you will let them know if/when you are interested in their research.

Especially this. If it's not a situation where you're trying to get playdates set up, I'd keep any replies short and simple to the effect of we're aware of those articles, however, we're satisfied with our reaseach and decision and leave it at that.

[hijadelrey3]

I am not posting this to encourage you to argue with those who have already made up their minds. Only to give some thoughts for your own research if these articles have concerned you or your wife and you wish to do any follow up research for your own personal peace of mind. I only know that I am new enough to all of this that it would be the case with me.

Specific to the USA Today Article.........

The Inside Vaccines website has some good information on Herd Immunity.

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/...ths-round-two/

When it does not exist.

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/...-transmission/

And when it is causes problems.

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/...-sure-why-not/

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/...gate-vaccines/


In essence, these articles, seem to say that while herd immunity may exist for some vaccines, it probably does not exist for all. And that the whole concept seems to be inherently problematic. This information brings up some questions in my mind that are worth thinking about and perhaps researching.

What happened to the children in this article is a tragedy but would vaccines have helped? The child with the immune deficiency could just as easily have contracted meningitis from being exposed to a number of bacteria or viruses for which we have no vaccine. These agents seem to be filling to void for the ones we are vaccinating against. The same is true for those who contract invasive pneumococcal disease.

The whooping cough vaccine does not seem to necessarily stop a vaccinated person from carrying and spreading the disease. So even if it does protect the vaccinated person, how can it protect the unvaccinated infant?

Most of the rest of these articles seem to focus on measles, mumps, and rubella. I think parents should be able to research and decide how the feel about the potential dangers of these diseases vs. the potential dangers of vaccination and whether the vaccine will even be effective. For instance, my fully vaccinated husband had measles in college. Once again insidevaccines.com seems to have some excellent material.

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/mmr/ Just follow the links in the article.

I cannot say anything about the BCG vaccine. I didn't, until now, even know that there was a TB vaccine. It doesn't appear very effective though from the little that I have looked up.

I hope all of this helps someone.

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by hijadelrey3

I cannot say anything about the BCG vaccine. I didn't, until now, even know that there was a TB vaccine. It doesn't appear very effective though from the little that I have looked up.

I hope all of this helps someone.

The TB vaccine is not normally given in the US. I did read once that not only did the vaccine not prevent TB, the vaccinated became more susceptible (more people vaxed with TB later contracted TB than those not vaxed--I think I read it in one of Butler's books).

[claddaghmom]

On the whooping cough story...it should also be noted that two strains are now vaccine resistant.

[NewCrunchyDaddy]

We appreciate you all taking the time to get back to us. My wife has known this person since high school, almost 20 years, so she does feel like he will at least look at her responses and consider them. They tend not to argue when they have disagreements and still end up friends at the end of the day. If she feels she's just hitting a brick wall, she'll "walk away."

About the TB vaccine - she did point out to him that even though this respected British medical journal says it is useful and important, the CDC says on their website that it is not. She wondered which of these sources she should trust more, in his mind, since he presented them both as, in his words, "unimpeachable sources." He hasn't responded to that yet.

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by NewCrunchyDaddy

We appreciate you all taking the time to get back to us. My wife has known this person since high school, almost 20 years, so she does feel like he will at least look at her responses and consider them. They tend not to argue when they have disagreements and still end up friends at the end of the day. If she feels she's just hitting a brick wall, she'll "walk away."

About the TB vaccine - she did point out to him that even though this respected British medical journal says it is useful and important, the CDC says on their website that it is not. She wondered which of these sources she should trust more, in his mind, since he presented them both as, in his words, "unimpeachable sources." He hasn't responded to that yet.

I would encourage you (just for your own edification...I realize these were NOT your words or opnion) and your wife's friend to research both the process of getting things published in peer reveiwed journals and the CDC. What you may find out will surprise you! IMO neither source is unimpeachable. The CDC is as corrupt as you can get and the process of getting published is often riddled with biased and conflicts of interest.

[Deborah]

since herd immunity is discussed so often...

bump!

[Jadzia]

I would highly question someone who refers to a Paul Offitt article as an "inimpeachable" source. Offitt is a vaccine patent-holder, who sat on the same committee that approved the vaccine that made himself rich. He also infamously said that a baby could withstand 10,000 vaccines at once (or was it 100,000?) Something equally ridiculous.