response to inquiry i made to breeder; should i pursue or turn and run?

[blessedwithboys]

i wrote a lovely email introducing myself to a breeder i found on the AKC site. the kennel is one town over from me, i was very excited to find them.

here is what i wrote:

"Hello!
I currently have an adult female (spayed!) toy poodle. I have been giving some thought to adding a puppy to our home as well. I tried rescue work, but we ended up with two different males who bit my children, so I think what would be best for us to go with another female.
I am not in a rush to adopt. Right now, I'm just making contact with a few local breeders to get started. Is there a chance that you might have a litter of toys in the next year? Is it possible for my kids and I to take our little Vegas to meet your breeding adults? Again, no rush.
Also, I might be interested in a retired adult female, if she got along well with us.
Thanks!"

this is what i got back:

"Your problem was not with it being a MALE, but that it was a rescue and probably not reared properly. If you have a female, a male puppy is a good choice. I wouldn't suggest you get an older one if you have children. I do have pups right now, but I don't let other dogs in my house. They are two weeks old.
You might try (insert email addy of another breeder) I think she has pups ready to go now."


hmmm...not what i was hoping for. in fact, for whatever reason, my gut is telling me to lose her email addy. am i being judgemental? wouldnt a responsible breeder want to know my older dog would be accepting of a puppy? of course i could send over copies of her health info b4 she was brought to the kennel...but if her dogs are all vaxed up she shouldnt be concerned, right? and her website shows that her dogs are champions, so obviously they are at shows and not unaccustomed to being around other strange dogs...

whaddya think?

[greenmagick]

I actually agree with her to a point....I dont believe the rescues bit because they were rescues per say but she is right about the early socialization being critical. She is definitely right that the majority of the time having two females is asking for trouble....it can certainly be done...but many breeders dont like to see a same sex pair.

I think it is totally reasonable for her not to allow another dog on her premise, especially with young pups.

Did you get all the information about health testing from her...are her dogs shown, champions?

[jeliphish]

Idk... I don't really see anything wrong with her response at all. I think she gave you her personal advice which was based on her experience. As far as her not letting you bring your dog in her house, I don't think its a sign that she is a bad breeder at all. I have known plenty of breeders who don't other animals in their home. Just because a potential buyer can produce papers that their dog has been vaxed doesn't mean that they are healthy. Not saying yours isn't though... Also a strange dog being mixed into an established pack (his dogs) could really cause an uproar. Just my .02.

[subtle]

The long and short of it is, if you are not comfortable I wouldn't pursue it. It is very common for breeders to not allow other dogs on to their property for heath reasons.

Have you ever checked out Versatility in Poodles? www.vipoodle.org

There is a lot (a TON actually) of info on selecting a breeder.
I would definitely recommend that you consider a male insted of a female... many female Poodles have very strong personalities.

I don't know how young your kids are but you might want to consider a Mini since Toy pups are super fragile. In fact, some breeders will not sell Toys to familes with young children for that reason.

Do you know how to check online health testing?


Happy Poodle hunting

-Mollie
Mom to 2 Poodles (1 Toy and 1 Mini) and expecting my first human baby in May!!

[blessedwithboys]

i had originally planned to get a mini, but i fell in love with a toy first. my kids are older and are very gentle with our little 6.5 lb girl. in fact, i have stepped on her way more than they have, not that we step on her often

i def want another toy. i groom myself and dont want a larger dog which would mean more time combing everyday. plus, smaller dogs eat less.

i;m not even sure i want another dog, maybe 50/50 right now. i've never dealt with a breeder, but from everything i've read they are supposed to be very helpful and concerned about who gets their pups. i just felt VERY brushed off by the tone of this response.

i wrote back to ask her what would happen if i bought a puppy and my older dog wasnt cool with it, male or female. i mean, its not fair to ask someone to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars without letting them intro the new dog to the old one, yk?

ty for the link, mollie. i'll check it out now.

[subtle]

Just keep looking and be super picky. You will eventually find your right breeder match. Some are wonderful and others are awful...it will really help that you are not in a rush.
Has your Toy been around other dogs? The breeder might be willing to bring an older pup out to meet your dog. Many Toy breeders send their pups home closer to 10 weeks so that they are more robust.

Best of luck and enjoy your little fluff!

-Mollie

[blessedwithboys]

my girl grew up with a rhodesian ridgeback! she is great with other dogs and even ok with cats, or at least a 3 wk old kitten i took care of for a short while. she loves kids, the rougher they play the happier she is! i dont think she knows how small she really is. LOL if i was to choose a puppy, i would ask the breeder about letting it self-wean, not be taken away at a set age. not sure if they would, but i'm fine with getting an "older" puppy. we'll see if she replies to my 2nd email...

[Ola_]

I agree 100% that you want a male if you currently have a female. The highest incidence of dog-dog aggression is between two unfixed males, followed by two females. A male-female pair is your best bet for a stable household, you just need to find the right dog. If you're set on a toy poodle then it narrows down your choices a lot and you're likely sacrificing temperament to get the breed/size you want.

Re: not allowing adult dogs with a new litter, I could totally see. It's like taking a newborn to a busy mall during flu season - they're vulnerable. So her answer sounds just fine to me, even though it's not what you wanted to hear.

[subtle]

If you're set on a toy poodle then it narrows down your choices a lot and you're likely sacrificing temperament to get the breed/size you want.



There are nice Toys out there... it just may take time to find one who is of excellent temperament ... a nice dog is well worth the wait. I looked for 2 years before finding my 2nd Poodle because I have a lot of needs/wants.
-Mollie

[Oubliette8]

Her response seems totally in line with what most responsible breeders would do. It was a bit short, but keep in mind she has a litter of brand new puppies to deal with- they're hard work! and many breeders get all sorts of outrageous inquiries, (not saying yours was) and sometimes, they get a tad pessimistic.

As far as male vs female, she's right. Being male had nothing to do with the bites, but they're prior histories before coming to live with you probably did. Bitch on Bitch aggression can be a serious problem, your best bet is a male puppy.

As far as not letting other dogs on her property, most good breeders wont even let strange HUMANS on their property when they have such a young litter. Even if your dog is fully vaxed, it can still pick up germs and carry them onto her property, and expose the pups. Chances are her whole place is in a sort of "quarantine" at the moment- dogs who are actively showing are probably farmed out to handlers until the pups are grown, dogs at her home are not leaving the property, and visitors are discouraged. When the pups get a little older, she'll start to allow puppy buyers to come by, but will otherwise try to keep visitors to a minimum.

She may never allow strange dogs on her property. Just one bad experience with a dog can really change a dog. I've worked in the pet industry a while now, and many owners will tell you their pet is friendly, well trained etc, when that is clearly not the case. I can't tell you how many times I've been told a "He's friendly" and then when he nips or growls get a "oh, well, he does that sometimes..." your dog may be the best behaved dog in the world, but she cant take that chance, so she has a blanket policy in place. A bad experience with an older dog can scar a puppy, she's not going to want to risk it with any of her dogs. Most show breeders I know socialize their dogs a lot but ONLY with dogs they know, who are of stable temperament. They're very careful to be sure the pups have only positive experiences.

Not to mention, often there is a complicated pack dynamic going on in a breeders house- intact bitches can be snippy with each other, intact males, around intact bitches, young dogs, old dogs, its a delicate balancing act. Throwing another dog in could cause chaos. And, you know how you're supposed to introduce strange dogs on neutral turf? Introducing your one strange dog, into a pack on THEIR turf, is bound to bring up some possessiveness issues.

In any case, its not her adult dogs your dog needs to be friendly with- its the new puppy! Most breeders have a STRICT return policy- if you cannot keep the dog for whatever reason, it gets returned to them. Most breeders I know would be very willing to take back a puppy if the resident dog absolutely would not accept it. Usually you sign a contract and it will be spelled out- what does the breeder expect you to do if you cannot keep the dog, under what circumstances will you get a refund etc.

There's no reason that YOU cannot meet her adult dogs and see their temperaments etc in a few weeks time. In fact that would be a good idea. I would write back, tell her you understand she must be limiting visitors due to the young age of her puppies, and at what point would she feel comfortable letting you meet the adults to get a feel for her dogs and her lines. I would also indicate that you are completely willing to wait for a puppy, that having a pup right now isn't an issue, and you understand the puppies and Mom need to be quite a bit older before they receive visitors.

Overall, from your corresponding alone, I think she sounds like a good bet. You will, of course, want to ask about health testing, and ask to see copies of the certificates for both parents before you take your pup home.

[blessedwithboys]

well, i didnt ask to take my dog to meet the puppies, in fact from her website it didnt seem like she had puppies at all.

i hear all the recs for getting a male, but we've already had issues with males. vegas is a bit alpha...she def. dominated the two males we had in foster (didnt have them at the same time). she was not agressive except for the first time one of them jumped on my bed while vegas and i were sitting on it, but she was more defending me than her sleeping area bc she sleeps on the couch sometimes and didnt ever care that they jumped up on it too. are you all saying she is likely to be even worse with another female? bc she gre up with a female and had no issues...

anyway, she gave my email addy to another breeder who she says has the "perfect" dog for me. he's an older puppy who is supposed to be show quality minus one testicle. LOL only problem is, i dont want a mini and i wont adopt a mini. i need a dog i can lift and with fibromyalgia i may not always be able to handle a larger dog. besides, my kids kids are not that little anymore and i've had my tiny toy for a yr and a half and they havent killed her yet.

[Ola_]

Her response said she doesn't allow other dogs, so I assume it would be ok for you to come visit without your dog. If she won't agree to that (at some point before you'd get your puppy) that would be a red flag for me. Are you saying that she hasn't updated her website to say she has puppies? That wouldn't worry me at all, I'm sure she's pretty busy with a new litter.

You'll have a better chance at peaceful coexistence with a male. IMO that's especially true if your dog is alpha. It may go better when it's a young pup coming in, but depends on personalities too - that's something I'd trust a breeder to help with, they know the personalities of their puppies best.

[subtle]

"i hear all the recs for getting a male, but we've already had issues with males. vegas is a bit alpha...she def. dominated the two males we had in foster (didnt have them at the same time). she was not agressive except for the first time one of them jumped on my bed while vegas and i were sitting on it, but she was more defending me than her sleeping area bc she sleeps on the couch sometimes and didnt ever care that they jumped up on it too. are you all saying she is likely to be even worse with another female? bc she gre up with a female and had no issues..."


Toys are such interesting dogs. If she is guardy you are gonna have some serious training ahead of you. Keep in mind that any TOy you bring into your house is going to want as much people time as possible. They are bred as COMPANIONS only and it isn't fair if Vegas will not share her people. The new pup is going to need equal people time! My Toy is very guardy, always has been which is why I am his 3rd home, and we have been working for 3 years for him to accept the 2nd dog. One reason that I got a Mini is that she is less intimidated by him. Having a 2nd dog come in when the first dog isn't thrilled by the idea is really, REALLY challenging! In my case I did it because my Toy was retiring from competition at the time so I needed to being in my new working partner.

Vegas may have accepted your RR female because she grew up with her. A strong female is less likely to tolerate the presence of another female than a male. That being said, I don't personally know your dog. Female poodles tend to have very strong personalities!

I looked for 2 years before finding my Mini. When I contacted the breeder that I ended up working with she had me fill out an application. After that I had to send in references and my dog's AKC number so that she could check up on me. I compete in obedience/rally with my Toy so she was able to look up and verify that for herself using his registration number. She called and interviewed all of my references! One of them she called TWICE! I had a 90 minute phone interview with her and a 40 minute phone interview with the co-breeder on the litter. She was interviewing me and I was interviewing her. After reviewing me, and after I got more info, I was invited to meet the litter (she is not in my area or else this would have been done in person). I wasn't sure even when I flew in if I would be leaving with a pup or not. Working with a good breeder is a lot of work!! But it was well worth the effort.

[blessedwithboys]

Originally Posted by subtle

Keep in mind that any TOy you bring into your house is going to want as much people time as possible. They are bred as COMPANIONS only and it isn't fair if Vegas will not share her people.

hmmm, untrue for us. mine is not at all a lap dog. she'd rather be nearby but def not on a lap. in fact, i've been home all day with her. its rainy and i popped in a movie and took her on the couch with me to snuggle and after five mins she got off the couch and went into a bedroom to nap and shes been there for hours. thats actually quite typical of my dog and a small part of why i want another one. i picked a toy breed so i would have a lap dog. i love her to bits and pieces and we have a blast playing with her and taking her out in a shoulder bag, but i still would like to try again to get a snugglier dog.

[subtle]

Originally Posted by blessedwithboys

hmmm, untrue for us. mine is not at all a lap dog. she'd rather be nearby but def not on a lap. in fact, i've been home all day with her. its rainy and i popped in a movie and took her on the couch with me to snuggle and after five mins she got off the couch and went into a bedroom to nap and shes been there for hours. thats actually quite typical of my dog and a small part of why i want another one. i picked a toy breed so i would have a lap dog. i love her to bits and pieces and we have a blast playing with her and taking her out in a shoulder bag, but i still would like to try again to get a snugglier dog.

Too funny - That is why I got a bitch puppy ... I wanted a more independent dog as my male is ALWAYS in physical contact with me. My female is typically in the room with me and keeps an eye on me which is a nice balance to my male. The males do tend to be more snuggly....

[SquishyKitty]

You have gotten a lot of great information on this thread.

I will throw in there, it sometimes really just depends on the dogs. We have a female rottweiler and a female Cane corso, and they are very bonded and get along great. We've had a lot of people mention that normally females don't get along well, but I just figure we got lucky.

[Irishmommy]

We have two females - Lhasa Apso and poodle/schnauzer cross, and they get along just fine, never had any issues.

[Oubliette8]

While two bitches CAN get along ok, two bitches is also one of the worst scenarios when it turns out that they don't get along. with a bitch that is already dominant and possessive, I would definitely recommend a male pup. Another female isn't likely to take well to being dominated, whereas males are more likely to tolerate it.

[Catherine12]

I agree that a male puppy is your best bet.

I used to breed dogs, and I don't see anything unusual or alarming in the breeder's e-mail, though it is perhaps a bit abruptly worded. I'm not surprised she doesn't allow other dogs. Even if all her dogs are vaccinated, there are many dog illnesses that are not vaccine-preventable. Something that causes minor cold-like symptoms (or even no noticeable symptoms) in an adult could be fatal to a young puppy.

I would ask to come see her dogs when the pups are old enough she would feel comfortable with that. I would also ask whether she assesses her pups' temperaments and can help match you with a pup with a temperament that is a good fit. And I would ask about the procedure she would follow if you adopt a pup and your older dog doesn't do well with him. She should be willing to take him back. She may or not not be willing to refund all your money. In that situation, my policy was to refund all but $100 (since taking back a pup that has been sold once usually means taking out another ad and hassles over the AKC papers, I feel it is fair for the breeder to keep a small sum to cover these expense).

Red flags for me would be: not wanting to show you the parents, not wanting to show you where the dogs are kept, not seeming knowledgeable about the dogs' health history, not knowledgeable about the pups' temperaments, not willing to answer questions, or pressuring you to decide on the spot. I could probably think of some others, but that's off the top of my head.

The fact that she is actually referring you to another breeder gives me a good vibe about her - a breeder who was just in it for the money probably wouldn't do that.

[ouesi]

Hmmm... I have to agree that you're better off with a MALE. While females *can* get along together, and you will surely encounter many people with 2 or more females and no problems, when things do go wrong between females, its not pretty - they don't call 'em 8itches for nothin'!!

I don't think the biting experiences you had had a thing to do with gender. Socialization and training is what makes a safe dog.

The breeders response didn't have any red flags IMO, more important to me would be to know that she/he shows, breeds the champions, and does independed healt testing on all breeding stock.