Originally Posted by silybum
Thanks for the responses!
Hmmm, I have done a fair amount of vaccine study myself and have never heard that pertussis only reduces symptoms. Do either of you have a reliable source on this? I would be really interested to see one.
Its also not necessarily true that vaccines aren't effective until the course is complete. The % effective that is discussed is actually the % of kids who respond to each shot. So they give 3 shots to cast the net wider and get more kids to respond.
And, again, I completely agree that herd immunity concept should not be used to force anyone to make a choice they dont want to make. But I do not think its a myth. There are a lot of studies that show that when vaccinations go down, outbreaks go up. I'm coming from a place of being quite anti-vaccination at first, and now selective about them. I am in no way supporting the CDC schedule. But I'm grappling with the social responsibility aspect of it. Disclaimer: my Grandmother was a Commie.
There may be some shedding of virus, but I have a really hard time believing its as effective as someone who actually is sick. Someone with end-stage cancer has a very suppressed immune system and wouldn't be able to fight off germs that most people could. It does suggest that there is shedding after vaccination, but doesn't prove that its more or less than a sick person.
And while its true that vaccines dont provide 100% immunity, neither does the wild-type disease. I had Pertussis when I was 3 months and recently had my titers done, and 30 years later, I am no longer immune. (They used to think catching Pertussis gave life-long immunity, no longer.) I do believe that catching a disease will provide better, longer lasting immunity. But I also dont want to idealize it; because, well, its not perfect either.
I am really interested in this discussion; grappling with these ideas as I said in the previous post. I hope y'all can hear me in the spirit of respectful and interested debate. I'd like to hear what comes back...
Yes, but I personally do not care about 100% immunity. I simply find that most people assume vaccines impart 100% immunity. I know the people on MDC don't, but I'm talking about my average run-in.
Anyways, here's some stuff I have on the DTaP:http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...act/104/6/1381
"The first is that a substantial number of B pertussis infections in unvaccinated children are mild and would not meet the case definition. The second is that all pertussis vaccines tend to modify duration and severity of disease rather than completely preventing illness"http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol6no5/pdf/srugo.pdf
"The effects of whole-cell pertussis vaccine wane after 5 to 10 years, and infection in a vaccinated person causes nonspecific symptoms (3-7). Vaccinated adolescents and adults may serve as reservoirs for silent infection and become potential transmitters to unprotected infants (3-11). The whole-cell vaccine for pertussis is protective only against clinical disease, not against infection (15-17). Therefore, even young, recently vaccinated children may serve as reservoirs and potential transmitters of infection. "<<<<---http://iai.highwire.org/cgi/content/full/68/12/7175
"In summary, booster immunization of adults with acellular pertussis vaccines was not found to increase bactericidal activity over preimmunization levels. Identifying ways to promote bactericidal immune responses might improve the efficacy of acellular pertussis vaccines. "http://whqlibdoc.who.int/hq/1999/WHO_V&B_99.03.pdf
"In discussion, Dr Cherry pointed out that in Japan also the reported pertussis incidence in children under three months of age has not declined substantially with return to a high vaccination coverage."http://iai.asm.org/cgi/reprint/58/10/3445
"This is consistent with animal experiments which suggest that adhesions not targeted by the vaccine may permit a bit of colonization and that neutralization of pertussis toxin would limit the severity of the disease but would not have an impact on the initial stages of infection."http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi...10.1086/381204
"Of particular interest is the lack of a significant ACT antibody response in children for whom the DTP or DTaP vaccines failed. This induced tolerance is intriguing and may be due to the phenomenon called “original antigenic sin”http://www.ima.org.il/imaj/ar06may-2.pdf
“Pertussis is considered an endemic disease, characterized by an epidemic every 2–5 years. This rate of exacerbations has not changed, even after the introduction of mass vaccination – a fact that indicates the efficacy of the vaccine in preventing the disease but not the transmission of the causative agent (B. pertussis) within the population .”http://www.uga.edu/rohanilab/paperpdfs/lancet2000.pdf
“We now have access to a much more extensive dataset
(both temporally and spatially) than was available to Fine
and Clarkson.4 We found that the onset of pertussis
vaccination coincided with a significant increase in the
interepidemic interval, from 2·0–2·5 to nearly 4 years in the
ten largest cities of England and Wales (figure 1).”http://www.adacel-locator.com/index....E&P=HowS_pread
“* It is unknown whether immunizing adolescents and adults against pertussis will reduce the risk of transmission to infants.3”http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Pertus......-a066705900
All the children in the day-care centers had been immunized in infancy with all four doses of Pasteur diphtheria-tetanus toxoid toxoid.......
All family members of the infant were also fully vaccinated with four doses of DTP. The infant had received only the first dose of vaccine at 2 months of age.”
Here are the ingredient lists (not copy/pasted mods) for two of the brands:http://www.fda.gov/cber/label/dtapsan110806LB.pdf
Deptacel (diphtheria, tetanus, acellular pertussis)
10 micrograms detoxified pertussis toxin
5 micrograms filamentous haemagglutinin
5 micrograms fimbriae types 2 and 3 (FIM)
3 micrograms pertactin (PRN)
15 Lf (limit flocculation) diphtheria toxoid
5 Lf (limit flocculation) tetanus toxoid
1.5 mg aluminum phosphate (0.33 mg of aluminum)
5 micrograms or less of residual formaldehyde
50 nanograms or less of residual glutaraldehyde
3.3 mg (0.6% v/v) 2-phenoxyethanol
Bordetella pertussis cultures grown in Stainer-Scholte medium, with added casamino acids and dimethyl-beta-cyclodextrin.
Toxin detoxified with glutaraldehyde.
Filamentous hemagglutinin is treated with formaldehyde.
Residual aldehydes are removed by ultrafiltration.
Individual antigens adsorbed separately onto aluminum phosphate.
Corynebacterium diphtheriae cultures grown in modified Mueller’s growth medium.
Toxin purified by ammonium sulfate fractionation and detoxified with formaldehyde and diafiltered.
Toxoid is individually adsorbed onto aluminum phosphate
Clostridium tetan: cultures grown in modified Mueller-Miller casamino acid medium without beef heart infusion.
Toxin is detoxified with formaldehyde and purified by ammonium sulfate fractionation and diafiltration.
Toxoid individually adsorbed onto aluminum phosphate.http://www.fda.gov/cber/label/dtapsmi121302LB.pdf
Pediarix (diphtheria, tetanus, acellular pertussis)
25 Lf diphtheria toxoid
10 Lf of tetanus toxoid
25 micrograms inactivated pertussis toxin
25 micrograms filamentous hemagglutinin
8 micrograms pertactin
10 micrograms HBsAg (hepatitis B surface antigen)
40 D-antigen Units (DU) of Type 1 poliovirus
8 DU of Type 2 poliovirus
32 DU of Type 3 poliovirus
2.5 mg 2-phenoxyethanol (a preservative)
4.5 mg sodium chloride
Not more than 0.85 mg aluminum by assay
100 micrograms or less residual formaldehyde
100 micrograms or less polysorbate 80 (Tween 80)
Thimerosal is used at the early stages of manufacture and is removed by subsequent purification steps to below the analytical limit of detection (less than 25 nanograms mercury per 20 micrograms HBsAg) which upon calculation is less than 12.5 nanograms mercury per dose
0.05 nanograms or less of Neomycin
0.01 nanograms or less of polymyxin B
5% or less of yeast protein
Corynebacterium diphtheriae cultures grown in Fenton medium containing a bovine extract.
Clostridium tetani cultures grown in a modified Latham medium derived from bovine casein.
Detoxified with formaldehyde.
Purified by precipitation, dialysis, and sterile filtration
Bordetella pertussis cultures grown in modified Stainer-Scholte liquid medium.
Toxin detoxified with glutaraldehyde and formaldehyde.
Filamentous hemagglutinin and pertactin, two pertussis antigens, are treated with formaldehyde.