Normal 4yo behavior? lying, sneaking, taking friends clothes off?

[UrbanSimplicity]

Sometimes I worry about dd1 who turned 4 a month ago (and this has always been the case.)

I recently posted about her lying, but now I need to add sneaking and hiding to the list. Just after I had to speak to her today about lying I found 3 crackers in a little spot she crawls to behind our couch. So I asked to to get them and give them to our bunny (what we normally do with food found on the floor). She immediately went out of my sight and was nibbling them around the corner. We had just finished talking about the importance of honesty moments before.

Also, our friends were over and she and her playmate, a boy of the same age, were obviously "up to something". So my friend and I watched kinda of amused to see what they were hatching. Giggling, whispering, going in the bathroom together. I suspected that my dd, who already had her shirt off, was making herself a "peanut" (ie her mis-pronunciation of penis) out of toilet paper that she likes to 'wear' between her legs in her underwear. This has gone on for a year, we do not make a big deal of it. I asked her what they were doing but did not get an answer. Mind you, my whole apartment is less than 500 sq feet so it's not like these 2 were unattended, we were just trying to give them some space, though still checking out what they were doing. A few minutes later, from behind the closed door of the bedroom, dds friend was screaming that he needed help to get his shirt back on. He also had his pants and underpants off and said dd took them off. Now, we love him, but he is a bit of a brute and there's no way my dd could have physically forced him. I asked her, she said he did it himself, but frankly it sounded dubious, and with all the lying lately I cannot tell. I think she basically asked/convinced/coerced him to take his clothes off.

btw-she is not learning this stuff from other friends. she seems to be the ringleader. And we have basically no media except starfall and some nursery rhymes on youtube. Is this all normal?

Reading this, nothing sounds too horrible, it's more like I get a feeling of disconnection from her. I try to talk to her, she won't make eye contact. It's like she turned 14 instead of 4

[MusicianDad]

Honestly, she sounds like she acting like a four year old to me.

The sneaking, hiding, and lying, she is testing out the idea that what she knows about things is different from what you know. For example "I eat the crackers in secret, then mommy thinks I gave them to the bunny because that is what she told me to do."

As for the clothes. It's probably just a game of "show me yours and I'll show you mine." Which is one of those things kids seem to lie about, especially if they have gotten in trouble for it before. (not saying your DD, thinking more the other boy maybe and that's why he said your DD took his clothes off.)

[meemee]

yup yup v. normal - esp. for a ringleader.

the sneaking. i looked at it as a time to reflect on my own parenting. did it need to change? did dd need more of a say.

my dd was sneaking and hiding and eating popsicles in the bathroom. so we had a talk and she told me well sometimes 'just one' doesnt work. she really REALLY needs another one. why does mommy get to make decisions and not her. so i sat back and thought she brought up a valid point. so i put my fear of a sugar monster aside and asked her if she really really wanted another one then yes i'd appreciate if she said something and we'd review.

well she did not become a sugar monster as i thought she would. she never ALWAYS asked for another popsicle. she asked once in a while with other things too. and i learnt to trust her too - that for some reason those few extra minutes of play, that extra cookie was really important to her. and i specially welcomed her expression of a need.

later as she grew up i left the decision to her. by 4 1/2 when she would come and ask me for another 'sugary stuff' i would ask her (she had already had the bad sugar talk) what she wanted to do. was that a wise decision. how much sugar had she already had that day. i never ever said no. she loved having the power and even though she knew she could have a soda (at 5) that i wouldnt stop her, she made the decision of taking a few sips and not a whole can.

[UrbanSimplicity]

well, all our snacks are in "the snack drawer" which is the lowest drawer, the girls have free access. she really seemed to be sneaking just for the sake of sneaking. Sure I had told her, in a friendly cooperative voice, "dd, can you grab those and give them to the bunny" but I don't really care if she eats crackers from a clean floor, they only been put during the playdate we'd just had. it's not a food thing, though I will look at how I might be being a bit too tight in general.......

[onyxravnos]

totally normal

i remember doing these things myself at that age. (and a little older)

[Just1More]

*I* don't think it's normal.

I would be, like you are, serious evaluating our relationship. I would not want these patterns of behavior, specifically of that response to me, to be habit in the teen years.

I don't know that I would make a huge deal out of any one incident, or continually harp on some issue or another (lying, stealing, etc.). But I would spend a good deal of time and effort to be sure our relationship was open and honest with each other. A lot of bonding. A lot of open talking.

A friend lately was talking about why she always felt so much closer to her dad as she got older than her mom. She has a good relationship with her mom, but knows it different than the one with her dad. She said that as she grew, he began to share more of himself with her: his fears, thoughts, and questions. He started to treat her like a peer, instead of just the "parent" role. He did it gradually, at her level. I find that when I share myself with my dd (almost 5), she opens to me much more. I do it in small, simple pieces for her sake, but it really does help.

If things did not improve with an improvement my relationship with her, fairly quickly (a week, maybe two? a month at the MOST), I would add another tier to the habit breaking. I would say, from Little House on the Prairie, "people who cannot be trusted must be watched." It's a common phrase around here. It applies to brother beating/manipulating, and general destructive disobedience, and etc. If I cannot trust you to do the right thing, than you will have to be watched while I finish x, y, or z.

I would explain, "This is becoming quite a problem, and I so want to trust you. But you keep sneaking/hiding/lying to me. You can't do that to people your whole life. These things...insert your list...could happen to you. I love you too much to let that be a habit for you." Then, you can ask her what needs to happen to fix it. If that fixes it, great. If not, it's your turn..."people who can't be trusted must be watched." Try it for a day (it's HARD), and then see if she can be trusted the next day.

Be cheerful and friendly and helpful. This is coming from a place of concern and love for her well-being and the relationship you share with her.

[Grace and Granola]

My 4.5yo ds has also started sneaking and fibbing. It seems to be just for the sake of it to me. I say that because the things he sneaks are things that I'm sure he knows I would be ok with! The fibbing I am not too happy with, but I view it as a teaching moment. The things my son has been fibbing about: using soap when washing hands, did he spill/break this, etc. Not terrible things, but he seems to be just trying it out. At those times, I try to explain to him why it's important to tell the truth, but honestly, trust seems too abstract for him to grasp. I try to frame it in a way that *I need to know the truth so I know how to help him or do what's best, etc.

I have not dealt with the clothes off type stuff, so no help there.

[ledzepplon]

I'm not really an expert, but this doesn't sound totally normal to me. I think all kids sneak and fib from time to time, but the coercing others would alarm me. I also think that if your mama instincts are telling you that there is something amiss you should investigate further. If I were in your shoes I think I'd seek some professonal advice.