Sleep Learning?

[llwr]

I am tired! I'm trying to sort through how our family can get the sleep that we need.

DD1 just turned 3 and DD2 is 5 mo. I'm not as crunchy about sleep as a lot of people here are. Bed sharing scares me. We're not set up to meet all of the safety guidelines and I won't do it without all of them. I room-share with DD2 part-time. In her room I have a couch next to the crib, or sometimes I'll put her in a Moses basket on the floor and lay right next to it so I can sleep and still have a hand on her. If it's close to morning, I might side-nurse on the floor with the intent of us both falling asleep. However, DD1 comes looking for me at night and if I'm sleeping in the baby's room, that wakes her up. Even when DD1 is quiet.

But it's daytime that's bothering me more. This age has been hard sleep-wise with both my girls. We're having a lot of cat-naps and not sleeping in bed and needing it really quiet. Now, I know this is totally normal and who would want to sleep in bed when they can cuddle with mom instead? I also know that many people have it much worse.

But I also have a hard time accepting that it's ALL developmental, or that I just have to deal with it because there's nothing I can do, which I sometimes see here. Neither of my girls are getting as much sleep as they need. DD1 is a totally different person when she is tired and the baby is cranky and crying. I feel like I could be a better mom if I were getting more. The combination of the 3 of us being deprived requires me to be at the top of my game, which I'm not, if I'm up a lot at night and not getting a break during the day.

I don't like the term sleep "training", and I don't like what most sleep training involves, but isn't there some way that I can teach her to sleep better? A sleep-learning so to speak? I mean, apart from the very late potty-training crowd, we help them "learn" to use the potty, and not just wait until they someday start it on their own, right? I have the Pantley books, which seem to be the closest there is to this, but I'm just frustrated right now.

I'm only trying for the morning nap in her bed. She'll usually sleep for about 30 minutes and then I wait in her room for the sleep cycle change and try to cuddle and shush her back to sleep without getting her up. This technique is from the Pantley books and is supposed to extend naps, and the cuddle/shush works when I'm initially putting her in bed. It never works though, so I get her out of bed and she'll be very sleepy or in a light sleep if I keep holding her, but I can't put her in bed again.

Now what bothers me about this is that I also have a 3 yo. I can't give my baby lap-naps. It's just not fair to my 3 yo. I already wear her for the mid-day nap. She'll usually take a good nap in the ergo, but cat-napping is increasing in there as well. Like if I try to do anything or even talk very much, I'm taking my chances.

My 3 yo is getting to bed too late because I have to put the baby to bed first and that might take a while. Or she might wake up. We have quiet time in the afternoon, but it's very rare that she'll nap, or that it's even quiet.

I guess I should have DH help with bedtime more, but I'm trying to focus on one thing at a time, and since we've never agreed on sleep, I've chosen chores. It's also the only special time I'm getting with DD1 right now.

I'm just trying to get them the sleep that they need. I can tell that they're not getting enough. I don't think I have unrealistic expectations for the baby. I'm not expecting her to STTN; I just want her to get what she needs and to have a little of it be alone so my 3 yo can have me sometimes too. Is that expecting too much? Why can't we seem to get to that point?

[rzberrymom]

I got confused a bit reading the post. Are you mostly looking for help with getting the 5 month old the sleep she needs? If so, my kiddos have always catnapped in a carrier--I think it's perfectly healthy and normal at that age. If it were me, I'd take away the stress of making her nap longer or differently and let her lead the way--I've found that the more I stress about naps, the worse things get.

[Louisep]

Re naps - I am sorry to say I have worked on this for an entire year with little success at extending (unless I'm right next to ds). The only thing I could do at 5 months to ensure he got enough daytime sleep was to have multiple naps. Can you do that? You could have her sleep alone for 2 of them and be on the go for one so your dd1 isn't stuck at home all day too.

The only solution I found for getting enough cumulative night time sleep is to get ds to bed early. He rises between 5-6am no matter what, so I put him to bed at 6pm.

It seems to me that you don't need a long bedtime ritual with a 5 month old. If she goes to sleep easily (?), then just put her down early and spend more time getting dd1 to bed who probably appreciates the rituals more.

YES, get your dh involved more!

[ktmama]

My newest baby's daytime sleep didn't get organized until about six months of age. Until then, he would sleep for 45 minutes and then be awake for 90 minutes. He primarily slept in the sling. A consistent nighttime routine and a rocking chair (and time) have helped things get better during the day. Nighttime still sucks.

Have you considered getting all three of you in bed together at some point during the day? You might have to let go of some things you want to get done around the house, but it might be a strategy so that everyone can at least get one good nap.

[hakeber]

Sounds like you have two needs:

More sleep

More time with dd1. (you miss her, don't you?)

Well here is what I think might help...

1) At five months you dd may still need be tightly swaddled still and sleeping with LOUD white noise, and probably some other sleep aids too, propped on her side, maybe a pacifier. These needs usually go longer than the books say IME. My ds needed those things in varying degrees for over the first year. She may even need them for naps times. DD only needs it for nights for now as she cat naps but will have one long rest mid day and sleep all evening and through the night. I do know that's not normal for this age, but DS was pretty similar though he had two long naps during the day and needed to be swaddled up and put next to the white noise machine ( a hairdryer in those days) for both of them. She's very unlikely ready to sleep unswaddled if she is still in a basinette. Also if she is swaddled she will have a HECK of a time rolling over in her sleep, (impossible really) so that might eliminate whatever fears you have about co-sleeping, uness your bedmate is a heavy sleeper. Mine is, so I just keep her on my side when we nurse in the middle of the night, or in the pram that we use as a basinette on my side of the bed if I need to stretch out a little...but she is RIGHT there, so when she fusses I just pull her into bed, nurse her back to sleep (no lights or walks down the hall to wake my bladder up.). This is also good because when ds comes to pounce on us, he doesn't wake her up...especially with the blaring white noise that drowns out his silliness for her.

2) I don't understand why the baby has to go down before the toddler. This is what we do: IF dd is not napping during ds's bedtime and dh is not around to watch her while I get ds down (though he does the bedtime stories with ds when he is home because he's a story teller and ds loves his stories), I wear her while I bathe ds, read ds stories and sing ds songs. She is usually fast asleep by the time we get to the story section of the good night. Then once he has had all my attention, he falls asleep better. He falls asleep best when I have had time to spend just him and me....

3) can you hire a babysitter to look after DC2 while you have one hour of DD1 time, like maybe twice a week? Or can your dh do it? Or a relative or neighbor? I have someone come twice a week to clean and help with the kids if I have work to do, and one hour of that time I spend with just ds and me. I really miss the special thing we had going on, just him and me, and so I need that time to reconnect.

4) I am also a little confused about your safety fears for co-sleeping. What is so dangerous about your bed? That aside, can you ditch the sofa in dd's room and get a futon mattress to fold up under DD's crib to pull out and make a sleeping bed for everyone on the floor of DD2's room for naps and bedtime? Then she can nurse and sleep and so can you and there's still room on the other side for dd1 to come snuggle from behind.

5) If your dh is present can you please smack him for me? You are clearly overwhelmed and need help? Why is he letting you suffer? Why isn't he being a better dad? Tell him to leave the chores. (You need a co-parent, not a maid...though a maid service might be nice)

[jmmom]

My kids are about the same age as yours; my infants also only sleep for a short time, in the bed, unassisted (about 30 minutes). What I do to extend it is hop back in and nurse the babe back to sleep as soon as he stirs. I usually remind my toddler to stay very quiet, play quietly downstairs, while I'm doing this. If the toddler is having trouble, make sure to suggest a particular activity (he/she should be able to entertain herself for a few minutes), and I also give a reward (I'm not opposed to that for kids; I think it takes a while to find things intrinsically motivating).

I agree that relaxing a bit about co-sleeping at night might help you. Especially with a 5 month old, you should be fine, unless you're on a waterbed or something. It will help you get a LOT more sleep.

Finally, if you need a nap, take one with your babe while the toddler is watching a video. It's not ideal, but isn't it better than a grumpy family? Sometimes crutches can help us get through really tough spots.

[jmmom]

Also, it's hard to tell, but if you're also having trouble getting your toddler to nap, try putting the toddler in front of a video, lying down on the couch with a blanket, etc. Make sure it's one she knows well, and she'll probably fall asleep. My guy naps like this - he's out within minutes. I wouldn't be trying to get her to nap with you or with the baby - that will kill your efforts with the baby's napping. Keep them apart for daytime sleep.