Why do other people feel so threatened by unschooling? - Page 3

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by VroomieMama

After reading this thread, I wonder, if I was unschooled or home schooled as a child, would I have been a better student at college? Would I have took the time to read all of my materials and complete them with all my best efforts? Growing up going to school, I remember feeling bored and looking at the clock waiting for it to strike 3. Subjects taught in school did not really stick. I dated a guy who was home schooled and he often was annoyed with me when I did not take my home works as seriously as he did. He thought learning was the most rewarding thing life could offer and he could not understand why I was casual about it instead of using it to my fullest advantage.

When my son started into classes at the local community college, he was surprised to find that most of the other students were there just to get the credits, but not at all interested in learning what was being taught. He noticed only one other student who was as interested as he was, and he got the feeling it was someone who'd also homeschooled. He understood, though, that they'd been having to study various things for many years, so this seemed like just one more hurdle for them whereas it was fun for him. I should add that he had unschooled, not simply homeschooled.
- Lillian

[2xy]

Originally Posted by Lillian J

[COLOR="Indigo"]When my son started into classes at the local community college, he was surprised to find that most of the other students were there just to get the credits, but not at all interested in learning what was being taught.

Unfortunately, the instructors at community college often feed into that mentality. I'm taking classes at community college and I often hear "This is off the record," "You don't have to know this," "Don't worry about that...it won't be on the test," et cetera.

[SagMom]

Originally Posted by Lillian J

When my son started into classes at the local community college, he was surprised to find that most of the other students were there just to get the credits, but not at all interested in learning what was being taught.

Yes! My dd is having that exact experience now. She was surprised at first, but also realized that the students were used to going to school and doing the work because they HAD to, not because they wanted to. I think she expected that, once at the college level, EVERYONE would be there out of choice. While college isn't, of course, mandatory, the mindset that we have to go to school and that we shouldn't expect learning to be fun or interesting certainly seems to be held over into the college years for many kids.

[2xy]

To be fair, I'm not always interested in being taught in the classes I'm taking. Many of them are requirements that have little or nothing to do with my program of study. I take the classes and do well in them, but that doesn't mean I'm interested in the material or actually learning much.

[SagMom]

Originally Posted by 2xy

To be fair, I'm not always interested in being taught in the classes I'm taking. Many of them are requirements that have little or nothing to do with my program of study. I take the classes and do well in them, but that doesn't mean I'm interested in the material or actually learning much.

But, you CHOSE your program of study and your school, and you chose them knowing the requirements, no? Sometimes we choose paths because we want the end result without necessarily loving every step, but that choice isn't usually something that grammar and high school students get.

[2xy]

I was more replying to what Lillian said.

When my son started into classes at the local community college, he was surprised to find that most of the other students were there just to get the credits, but not at all interested in learning what was being taught.

Nothing to do with anything about grammar/high school. The past several posts are about community college.

[seaheroine]

Originally Posted by PreggieUBA2C

My family's perspective on this is that we don't teach our dc how to learn; they have an innate ability to sort, analyse and conclude without our intervention.

I think this might be the best post I've ever read on MDC. Wow!

[DirtRoadMama]

I think there could be a third type that "freaks out", and that would be the people who just don't agree with your choice, and feel the need to change you. It could have nothing to do with them feeling threatened because they think you have made a better choice. They might feel you have made a BAD choice, and are trying to save you from yourself, so to speak.

There are lots of bossy, domineering people in the world, I've found.

Originally Posted by heatherdeg

I think there are two kinds of people that freak out when you tell them that you're doing something far from mainstream:

1) those who feel that you're essentially telling them that what they're doing is not the best decision and immediately try to force you to doing what they do as a means of validating their choice. Some of these people may even know that what you're doing is better and that they CAN do it, but it would be more effort that they don't feel like putting in.

and

2) those who consider that what you're doing might be the best thing, but they don't fully understand it because it's so far off from their reality and they are simultaneously intrigued but panicked that you ARE really doing something better but they're not going to understand it well enough to do themselves.

I think the coworker was likely #2. The whiteboard only being evidence of his overzealousness to do the best thing for his kid.

And really, the #1s in the world have deeper issues than you're going to really overcome in a conversation. I've come across them not only with homeschooling, but also with extended bfing, cding, organic eating, foster parenting... you name it--anything we do that isn't what the majority is doing.

[zinemama]

Originally Posted by heatherdeg

I think there are two kinds of people that freak out when you tell them that you're doing something far from mainstream:

1) those who feel that you're essentially telling them that what they're doing is not the best decision and immediately try to force you to doing what they do as a means of validating their choice. Some of these people may even know that what you're doing is better and that they CAN do it, but it would be more effort that they don't feel like putting in.

and

2) those who consider that what you're doing might be the best thing, but they don't fully understand it because it's so far off from their reality and they are simultaneously intrigued but panicked that you ARE really doing something better but they're not going to understand it well enough to do themselves.

I have no doubt that these two types of reactions exist, but I don't think the co-worker falls into either of them.

There seems to be an assumption on this board that almost everyone critical/questioning about un/homeschooling has that attitude because deep in their hearts, they know or suspect that it's the best form of education and that by sending their (or any) child to school, they're subjecting them to second best.

Now, it may well be that this type of person exists (I haven't encountered it). But as for the OP's co-worker, I could detect nothing in his reaction to indicate that he really thought unschooling is best, or that he was panicked because he knew he could never do it himself. Frankly, I find that assumption to be awfully big stretch.

From the OP's description of his reaction, he sounded like a man who was very surprised, even shocked by the (new to him) idea of unschooling. He clearly had doubts that it could work and presented those doubts to the OP's dh. He was skeptical of the whole thing, of whether it could lead to an educated adult. For someone who up to this point had never heard of unschooling, I think that's a pretty natural reaction. I don't understand the need to read anything else into it.

(Again, the way he presented his thoughts was unwarranted - but it didn't sound to me as if he felt either threatened or panicked about the validity of his own education and the one he plans for his children.)

[heatherdeg]

Originally Posted by DirtRoadMama

I think there could be a third type that "freaks out", and that would be the people who just don't agree with your choice, and feel the need to change you. It could have nothing to do with them feeling threatened because they think you have made a better choice. They might feel you have made a BAD choice, and are trying to save you from yourself, so to speak.

There are lots of bossy, domineering people in the world, I've found.

Bolding the part I particularly agree with. Yes, I think you're right; but I also think we're now getting to semantics: I would argue that people who feel that your decision is wrong enough to need to take any kind of action to save you from yourself is grounded in insecurity. But that's JMO. I just think that when you're secure in your decisions, you don't feel compelled to change someone else. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

But yeah--TOTALLY have seen people come at it from the "save you from yourself" angle.



In re-reading my post, yeah, the second description should've been 2 separate people/reactions:

2a) those who don't fully understand it because it's so far off from their reality (and either do or don't ask about it); and

2b) those who fall into the above and consider that what you're doing might be the best thing and they are simultaneously intrigued but panicked that you ARE really doing something better but they're not going to understand it well enough to do themselves.


I "get" that not everyone has underlying insecurities about their education decision. I'm new to the forum so I don't know the going mindset, but I'm trying to clarify mine. I'm really sorry that I didn't articulate it as well in my prior post. But I DO believe that the people who feel compelled to grill you beyond the "learning what it's about" stage have more going on--whether that be full-on insecurity about their decision or whether it's part of the anxiety that many people have about decision-making when it comes to bigger things like education. I've met both. And those who just don't understand some of the things I do don't necessarily understand why I would choose to do it even after explaining it to them. It's just definitely not something we feel the same about. We've usually been able to have respectful conversations about these things and I appreciate hearing the "other" side in case I've missed a point in making MY decision. In the end, we just agree that neither of us is better, just different (I'm thinking specifically of extending bfing and hsing a special needs child). What I'm doing and it being so far off from what they know doesn't make them instantly question what they're doing to any significant degree.

But there have been far more people in my life who are unable to handle that doing something different is okay. Perhaps I just happen to be surrounded by more insecure people than most...?

I'm also not sure I've made what I'm saying any clearer, but I hope I'm not offending anyone.

[cottonwood]

Originally Posted by stik

Kids forget. It's a thing they do.

Most people forget, when it's something that's not interesting to them or relevant to their lives. A lot of traditional schooling falls into that category. The problem being not the information itself, but its lack of meaningful context and present usefulness.

If you are learning things alongside your 4yo, that also says lovely things about your regular education - you know how to learn.

Or, it says that her innate knowledge of how to learn, which we are all born with, was not permanently damaged by school (which is the case for myself.) And this is nit-picky, but "regular" here seems to me to imply normality or the default, as if unschooling is irregular. Personally, I'd just say "school".

Originally Posted by Annie Mac

even if you accept the philosophy of unschooling as superior to the set curriculum/public school system, the fact is that at some point, if your child wants to continue formal education in order to follow a certain career path, he/she is bound to run up against standardized tests.

I'm sorry, but this concern is just so hard for me to understand. The form/system of standardized testing is not rocket science. SagMom wrote: "The process of elimination is not a difficult concept and it's something people do in their daily lives all the time. Ditto referencing back to an essay to find information." If a person needs to have practiced doing multiple-choice tests for 12 years in order to be able to take them properly, I have to wonder whether they have cognitive issues and how they are going to survive in university and why they are there at all.

There's also the question of transcripts: when you're child applies to university, they will ask for one, and they will expect a standardized form with grades for specific subjects.

Homeschooling has become a big enough movement that colleges now recognize and accept that many people who do not go to school may not have a transcript, so they adjust their entrance requirements accordingly. If experience, portfolio, and/or test scores are strong, there should be no problem. I'd be surprised to learn that there are any schools left that insist on subject course transcripts; in that case it seems to me that one could then either make up a "homeschool transcript" or take community college classes first. Actually, I know a bunch of teens, age 15 or 16, who don't go to school who are doing exactly that -- here it's paid for by the state (in lieu of high school) and counts as college credit.

The other thing that confuses me: isn't unschooling something that parents would do anyway with their children? In addition to some more formalized education? It seems to me -- and again, correct me if I'm wrong because you all are actually living this -- that unschooling is all about allowing your child to follow their interests and learn generalized lessons from those interests as well as from life skills (ie teaching math by making muffins and measuring the ingredients), teaching them critical thinking skills (ie teaching them to learn, vs teaching them facts), and allowing them the latitude to be who they are in the learning environment. That all sounds great to me, but wouldn't you do those things anyway?

That's just good parenting, and living life. 'Unschooling' includes all that, yes, but also specifically refers to the rejection of our school system's educational philosophy and management.

That's all just to say that some skills to take a while to learn, and it can be daunting to learn how to question a professor when you have never dealt with a formal teacher before, in my experience.

I can understand that. In my experience, though, having lots of exposure to formal teaching wasn't the fix for it, because questioning was discouraged in both clear and subtle ways. This was, mind you, in a politically progressive area, and in five different schools. We learned to be afraid of asking questions. In grammar school, high school, and college it was overwhelmingly the norm. I can still remember vividly my visceral shock when a woman in my university program just kept asking questions, as if she had a right to. I thought she was like some sort of demi-god, seriously, it was just so unusual and, I thought, brave of her. I didn't become comfortable with it until I was well out of school. Really, I feel my school experience prepared me *very* poorly for dealing productively with managers and authority figures, in that it set up an artificial hierarchy of power and value and conditioned in us the behaviors that served it.

[dillonandmarasmom]

Originally Posted by Lillian J

Well, apparently the guy never got "socialized" in school, huh? Lillian

*snicker*

That's what I thought...okay, still reading this thread. Curious.

[dillonandmarasmom]

Originally Posted by claddaghmom

B/c it's basically saying, "My kid can stay at home and do nothing and be better than your kid who will be institutionalized for 18 years."

And yes, I totally understand US is way more than "do nothing" but the point is few people know what US is and so they have a stereotypical idea that the kid just runs wild at home.

Yes, that is so simple. I get it! And, when I read snark about US, that is EXACTLY the tone I hear. Thank you!

[TEAK's Mom]

I know that I started out feeling threatened by unschooling for two reasons. The first was that school was a dreadful experience for me. I was bored and bullied and miserable, but I wanted to believe that those experiences had some sort of value in making me a stronger person. It had to have been worth it somehow, or I would have wasted 13 years.

The second issue was that I was afraid that I would not be able to homeschool my own children. My dp was not initially drawn to homeschooling and was quite convinced that I needed to stay in the workforce. I didn't want unschooling to be wonderful because I couldn't do it.

I know it sounds petty and small-minded, but these feelings were very real to me at the time.

[dillonandmarasmom]

Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds

Most people forget, when it's something that's not interesting to them or relevant to their lives. A lot of traditional schooling falls into that category. The problem being not the information itself, but its lack of meaningful context and present usefulness.



Or, it says that her innate knowledge of how to learn, which we are all born with, was not permanently damaged by school (which is the case for myself.) And this is nit-picky, but "regular" here seems to me to imply normality or the default, as if unschooling is irregular. Personally, I'd just say "school".



I'm sorry, but this concern is just so hard for me to understand. The form/system of standardized testing is not rocket science. SagMom wrote: "The process of elimination is not a difficult concept and it's something people do in their daily lives all the time. Ditto referencing back to an essay to find information." If a person needs to have practiced doing multiple-choice tests for 12 years in order to be able to take them properly, I have to wonder whether they have cognitive issues and how they are going to survive in university and why they are there at all.


Homeschooling has become a big enough movement that colleges now recognize and accept that many people who do not go to school may not have a transcript, so they adjust their entrance requirements accordingly. If experience, portfolio, and/or test scores are strong, there should be no problem. I'd be surprised to learn that there are any schools left that insist on subject course transcripts; in that case it seems to me that one could then either make up a "homeschool transcript" or take community college classes first. Actually, I know a bunch of teens, age 15 or 16, who don't go to school who are doing exactly that -- here it's paid for by the state (in lieu of high school) and counts as college credit.



That's just good parenting, and living life. 'Unschooling' includes all that, yes, but also specifically refers to the rejection of our school system's educational philosophy and management.



I can understand that. In my experience, though, having lots of exposure to formal teaching wasn't the fix for it, because questioning was discouraged in both clear and subtle ways. This was, mind you, in a politically progressive area, and in five different schools. We learned to be afraid of asking questions. In grammar school, high school, and college it was overwhelmingly the norm. I can still remember vividly my visceral shock when a woman in my university program just kept asking questions, as if she had a right to. I thought she was like some sort of demi-god, seriously, it was just so unusual and, I thought, brave of her. I didn't become comfortable with it until I was well out of school. Really, I feel my school experience prepared me *very* poorly for dealing productively with managers and authority figures, in that it set up an artificial hierarchy of power and value and conditioned in us the behaviors that served it.

...and even more to the point, having NOT experienced the standardized tests can be incredibly beneficial, as being a new experience can make one take it more seriously, work more carefully, and even **gasp** appreciate it for what it is!

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds

The form/system of standardized testing is not rocket science. SagMom wrote: "The process of elimination is not a difficult concept and it's something people do in their daily lives all the time. Ditto referencing back to an essay to find information." If a person needs to have practiced doing multiple-choice tests for 12 years in order to be able to take them properly, I have to wonder whether they have cognitive issues and how they are going to survive in university and why they are there at all.

Homeschooling has become a big enough movement that colleges now recognize and accept that many people who do not go to school may not have a transcript, so they adjust their entrance requirements accordingly. If experience, portfolio, and/or test scores are strong, there should be no problem. I'd be surprised to learn that there are any schools left that insist on subject course transcripts; in that case it seems to me that one could then either make up a "homeschool transcript" or take community college classes first.

Unfortunately, there still are large colleges that look at applications in a robotic way, and it's often largely because of having to run so many applicants through that they don't have the time nor interest in getting more real about it - but those are not necessarily the kind that would be interesting to an independent thinker who's looking for a deeper experience in an education. Colleges all have their unique approaches, and a child who grows up being able to really think and question outside the box will be able to examine his college choices with a keen eye and heart. - Lillian

[SagMom]

Originally Posted by Lillian J

... and a child who grows up being able to really think and question outside the box will be able to examine his college choices with a keen eye and heart. - Lillian

This was an unexpected thing for me. When dd started to look at colleges she had a really clear picture of the type of place she wants to go to.

She told me that she knew a lot about how she learned and what she wanted from the college experience and what kind of learning environment would best suit her. I thought that was pretty surprising since she hadn't been to school since Kindergarten. But she's approaching it by looking for a college that suits HER rather than looking at colleges and making herself fit in.

She's in community college now, because of her age, but I was impressed with the amount of thought she's putting into her next step.

[cottonwood]

Originally Posted by DirtRoadMama

I do know that if I hadn't been MADE to take my math classes, I would not have learned anything past fractions (because I liked to cook, and fractions happen quite often in cooking). If I hadn't learned the more complex subjects, and learned how to sit through subjects I didn't care about at the time, I don't think I would have ever found my field of work, or pursued my degree field (accounting! of all thing, really!), and I do love my work. So, I think my experience, with having to learn a subject I didn't want to learn, opened more doors because I was willing to try a class that didn't sound like much fun before I started (Intro to Accounting), and I didn't only choose those classes that sounded like fun.

Well, you were lucky. The "make people learn things on the off chance that they might love one of those things" way of approaching education is impractical because while the choice made for a person by others might end up involving something of value to them, the person's own choice is guaranteed to do so because the reason they are choosing it is because it already is valuable to them. There is also the risk of the student becoming resistant to something they might otherwise enjoy, simply by virtue of it being forced. Yes, people can find good things either way; they're just far more likely to in freedom.

Perhaps you would have never found out you love math on your own; but you would have found other things. Is the loss of autonomy and time really worth it? It is now, perhaps, because it's over and done with. But what if I were to, right now, tell you that you have to start learning the things I deem important? Would you balk? You might, after all, discover something you love. Why not, then?

Because, I'm guessing, you think you have better things to do, things that are of known value to you, and because you have faith in the world, in this present, as a place big and varied enough to engage you on your own terms, and you are large enough, on the inside, to contain many different possible loves, directions, goals. You don't need or want me to make demands on your time to play out my guesses, to see if there might be something in them. Young people, unless they're taught differently, aren't any different. They know what stirs their hearts and minds, and they have a natural drive to find a place in the world around them, to learn the things that help them fit and get what they want.

[pumpkin]

I'm not an unschooler. I will likely be a homeschooler.

I will admit that unschooling scares me. I believe that there are certain foundations of knowledge that everyone needs. I don't mean details of history or the memorizing of every bit of the periodic table. I mean that people need to be introduced to the idea of history and have a basic foundation in chemistry because there is no way to predict what a child will grow up to be.

I never imagined how far I would go in mathematics even in my first couple of years of college. Now when DH needs to describe what I do professionally he says "spooky math stuff".

So unschooling scares me because I wonder how kids will get the broad based foundation they need to go down any path they choose. I know there are unschoolers who do a great job of making sure their kids get that foundation.

I'm just trying to explain why its scary to some of us. I don't feel threatened, I just worry that because a parent didn't end up using math much in life they won't emphasize it with their kid. The reality is that even schools can do a poor job there. I once had an algebra teacher tell the class that they would never use this stuff, but they needed to learn it anyway. Even then I knew they teacher was wrong. Plenty of people need intense academics in their career paths. Some of us even sit around writing formulas or discussing the chemical structure of a compound all day every day.

[laohaire]

Really interesting discussion.

My DH had all sorts of trouble in school. He's smart, but he just didn't fit the mold. He has a harder time than most people learning by rote, and it came up for him over and over. He hates math so much that he specifically avoids it in his life - like, he would never EVER apply for a job at Home Depot because he heard there's a test.

So much for being forced to "learn" something having a happy ending.

And yet... when I asked him what he thought of homeschooling (not specifically unschooling, that would have really flipped his lid) DD, his first reaction was NO WAY. I think maybe school was just so purely unsatisfying for him that the only way he could make it ok in his head was that it was one of those things you have to do and you're better for it.

I didn't really push the subject - DD was just a baby then, and still only 4 now - but he did think about it on his own, and now he's really excited about unschooling. I should ask him if he could remember how he initially felt about it, maybe he can shed some light on the subject. As for me, while I fit the school mold great (all A's/4.0 in college) I didn't have such a strong reaction to thinking about unschooling. Yes, my first reaction was doubt, but it wasn't really emotional and I was open to it. It didn't take much for me to understand how it works. So I can't really speak personally how someone who reacts strongly might be feeling about unschooling.