Non-natural birth & immediate bonding - Page 2

[georgia]

Please don't make this personal so this thread can remain on the board. As a natural family living site, and it is expected that members will wish to explore the realities of our experiences, good and bad. No one is judging (general) you by asking if interventive births can lead to difficulties. Research shows that they can. It is not a personal condemnation, and it should not be taken as such. If you find yourself reacting personally, please take some time before responding and please keep the User Agreement in mind.

Here are a few articles that might be of interest:

http://www.mothering.com/pregnancy-b...print-of-labor

http://mothering.com/green-living/wh...-family-living

http://www.mothering.com/science-att...cal-roots-love

Please contact a moderator if you have any questions or concerns, thanks!

[TCMoulton]

Originally Posted by amberskyfire

BUT, mothers who tend to be good mothers also usually learn about gentle parenting practices in advance.

I really don't think that this is a fair statement to make. I have met moms who knew nothing about raising children when they went into their own birth be fabulous parents and moms who were raised by the kindest, gentlest moms be not so great and gentle parents.

This kind of thread does nothing but hurt feelings and further divide the split between the moms here who have given birth via C/S (for whatever reason) and the moms who went the natural route.

[AllyRae]

Not to mention...most of the people who "choose not to breastfeed for personal reasons" seem to have that decision made BEFORE their child is ever born. Have you spoken to a pregnant woman who knows they will formula feed? I have. Have you spoken to a pregnant woman who already knows they won't co-sleep? I have. Heck, that's why people register for cribs while pregnant.

Maybe those who choose not to breastfeed and co-sleep also are choosing to not have a natural birth...not necessarily those who do not have a natural birth being unable to parent in a certain way. It seems to me that those who choose to CIO, not breastfeed, spank, and not co-sleep already *know* that is what they will do. The only time I've ever seen someone who wanted to parent gently and breastfeed, cosleep, etc. and flat out didn't do any of it was because of a traumatic birth that lead to PTSD and the woman was unable to parent in much capacity until the trauma was straightened out. Other than that, most people seem to know what they will and won't do long before the birthing day.

So to me, it seems like choosing mainstream parenting practices during pregnancy (and registering for the equipment like cribs and the like) will generally also choose a mainstream birth. Those who know during pregnancy that they will breastfeed and co-sleep know so during pregnancy (and therefore don't stock up on bottles or buy cribs, etc.) and are more apt to also believe in natural birthing. However those who want to breastfeed and co-sleep but then are unable to have a natural birth...most of those people that I know are still doing natural gentle parenting despite the birth...

[mambera]

There doesn't seem to be much about this on PubMed. I did find this abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8434272

which reports the results of a survey suggesting that women themselves felt bonding was improved with homebirth or birth-center than hospital birth, but I can't get the full text and I don't see much else on brief survey.

Maybe it's a factor but there are so many other factors that affect bonding I doubt it's The Reason For CIO. And if you want to blame birth stress for poor bonding I'd point a finger more at stressful labor environments than at analgesia. Animals who give birth under stressful conditions are much more likely to neglect (or eat) their young.

Of note, very painful labors can *also* disrupt bonding (in humans and animals) as the mother can see the baby as the source of the pain. So maybe epidurals improve bonding!


My birth experience was pretty good as they go and I didn't have any interventions (labored at home till pushing, then drove fast to hospy barely in time for midwife to catch the baby); but the bonding didn't really happen until around day 3 or 4 I think. I actually sent my kid to the hospital nursery without a qualm (on the very very bad advice of my midwife who said I'd get more sleep that way ). Then it was like a love Niagara fell on me on day 3 and suddenly it seemed like her spot a foot away from me in her sidecarred crib was too desperately far away.

[bebebradford]

I ended up having hospital births and drugs for both of my children.... As soon as they were born I had the momma bear instinct. I didn't have a 100 percent natural homebirth, but I was madly in love with them instant I saw them. I think some of these ideas floating around here are offensive, and giving women the wrong ideas about birth.

[amberskyfire]

Originally Posted by georgia

Please don't make this personal so this thread can remain on the board. As a natural family living site, and it is expected that members will wish to explore the realities of our experiences, good and bad. No one is judging (general) you by asking if interventive births can lead to difficulties. Research shows that they can. It is not a personal condemnation, and it should not be taken as such. If you find yourself reacting personally, please take some time before responding and please keep the User Agreement in mind.

Here are a few articles that might be of interest:

http://www.mothering.com/pregnancy-b...print-of-labor

http://mothering.com/green-living/wh...-family-living

http://www.mothering.com/science-att...cal-roots-love

Please contact a moderator if you have any questions or concerns, thanks!

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU for the links! Those are exactly what I am looking for!

[mambera]

Originally Posted by AllyRae

So to me, it seems like choosing mainstream parenting practices during pregnancy (and registering for the equipment like cribs and the like) will generally also choose a mainstream birth. Those who know during pregnancy that they will breastfeed and co-sleep know so during pregnancy (and therefore don't stock up on bottles or buy cribs, etc.) and are more apt to also believe in natural birthing. However those who want to breastfeed and co-sleep but then are unable to have a natural birth...most of those people that I know are still doing natural gentle parenting despite the birth...

[artgoddess]

Originally Posted by amberskyfire

Thank you! That's just the kind of anecdotal info that I was looking for.

I'm pretty sure this is sarcastic, and I don't see a need for it. I was very polite and held back any ill feeling about your OP in my response and your suspicion that most people here feel the same way you do.

Originally Posted by amberskyfire

Do you feel that there was anything in particular that may have caused you to have a hard time the second time around?

I don't really think it's much more than the transition from one to two can be rough. Her birth was much easier, much more enjoyable. I felt empowered, etc... But the lack of sleep with my first didn't effect me, I could nap when he did. When my second was up all night nursing, I had to be awake for my 3 year old during the day.

As far as my birth choices effecting my parenting choices I'm not sure there is a correlation. I didn't buy a parenting book until my son was about 4.5 months old. I just did what felt right. I didn't stress about it, I figured he'd sleep when tired and eat when hungry. I knew I wanted to breastfeed so i took a class when pregnant and got the local LLL number. I never heard of attachment parenting and never strived for any parenting goals. I found the label attachment parenting later and discovered it fit what we had already been doing so I bought Sears Baby Book.

[JessicaS]

I think there is a lot of generalizing. I didn't have a lot of experience with gentle methods before I had a child. I was raised in a home where severe physical discipline was commonplace as was harsh criticism and yelling.

I have a lot of issues making jokes in serious situations because that was always my defense mechanism for trying to calm things down growing up.

I have never had a natural birth.

My birth with my son was pretty bad and followed by a NICU stay. I think there was more of a disconnect at the very first because I was a bit shell shocked. I had just spent two weeks at the NICU barely being able to hold my son. It took a lot out of me. I was in so much pain it was hard for me to hold him for extended periods of time.

Just that first night with him sleeping in my arms was just so healing and soothing like I had been covered in bruises.

I certainly don't think I was a bad mother, he certainly wasn't left to cry or anything like that, I was definitely more broken and bruised but anything I would MORE protective MORE insistent on he get what he needs and MORE demanding of getting good care.

Dh would say I started getting a bit hostile and maybe I did but I was very insistent on ds getting what was best for him.

[amberskyfire]

Originally Posted by artgoddess

I'm pretty sure this is sarcastic, and I don't see a need for it. I was very polite and held back any ill feeling about your OP in my response and your suspicion that most people here feel the same way you do.



I don't really think it's much more than the transition from one to two can be rough. Her birth was much easier, much more enjoyable. I felt empowered, etc... But the lack of sleep with my first didn't effect me, I could nap when he did. When my second was up all night nursing, I had to be awake for my 3 year old during the day.

As far as my birth choices effecting my parenting choices I'm not sure there is a correlation. I didn't buy a parenting book until my son was about 4.5 months old. I just did what felt right. I didn't stress about it, I figured he'd sleep when tired and eat when hungry. I knew I wanted to breastfeed so i took a class when pregnant and got the local LLL number. I never heard of attachment parenting and never strived for any parenting goals. I found the label attachment parenting later and discovered it fit what we had already been doing so I bought Sears Baby Book.

No, that wasn't sarcastic. That was exactly what I wanted. There are a lot of issues at hand with the subject. I wasn't taking into account things like adoption.

Sorry if it looked sarcastic, it wasn't

[amberskyfire]

Originally Posted by abimommy

I think there is a lot of generalizing. I didn't have a lot of experience with gentle methods before I had a child. I was raised in a home where severe physical discipline was commonplace as was harsh criticism and yelling.

I have a lot of issues making jokes in serious situations because that was always my defense mechanism for trying to calm things down growing up.

I have never had a natural birth.

My birth with my son was pretty bad and followed by a NICU stay. I think there was more of a disconnect at the very first because I was a bit shell shocked. I had just spent two weeks at the NICU barely being able to hold my son. It took a lot out of me. I was in so much pain it was hard for me to hold him for extended periods of time.

Just that first night with him sleeping in my arms was just so healing and soothing like I had been covered in bruises.

I certainly don't think I was a bad mother, he certainly wasn't left to cry or anything like that, I was definitely more broken and bruised but anything I would MORE protective MORE insistent on he get what he needs and MORE demanding of getting good care.

You are right, I didn't even consider background info like abuses or stresses that may have happened to the mother when she was a child - issues that could definitely color the situation after birth and would very likely have an effect on parenting generally.

[gcgirl]

I think lack of support and a social network has a lot more to do with parenting difficulties than the birth experience.

[Wildwomyn]

The difference between having interventions just because someone told you to, or knowingly choosing them for medical reasons was apparently also not taken into account.

Since I assume that I'm at least one of the people who was called out as taking it too personally, I will say that I'm not particularly upset. But I have actually thanked the gods that I wasn't into the natural childbirth at any cost ideal, or I might well have assumed that everthing was just over and wrong after the birth and it didn't matter what I did at that point.

[JessicaS]

Originally Posted by amberskyfire

You are right, I didn't even consider background info like abuses or stresses that may have happened to the mother when she was a child - issues that could definitely color the situation after birth and would very likely have an effect on parenting generally.

There is no telling how someone else would react to the same stressors.

I don't think method of child birth is related to that particular issue.

I do think people who might be more drawn towards natural childbirth would also be told to "listen to their instincts" which generally results in more gentle care. They would also be more likely to have researched the issue and been more likely to question the status quo.

Whether or not someone "accomplished" natural childbirth or birthed at all would be unrelated IMO. I would wonder if such studies got the same results in areas where homebirth is the norm.

I think it is more about philosophy, the support one receives and trust in oneself.

[KGB]

My wife and I just took a childbirth class. The instructor has been a L&D nurse for many years and was also a doula. She mentioned that there has been a swing in the way that births are "managed" in hospitals within the last 3 years or so. Many studies have been done about intimate skin-to-skin contact between mother and baby shortly after birth and they've found that it results in less stress for mother and baby, makes it easier to latch on for breastfeeding, and may potentially have beneficial effects later on. It talks about the importance of the baby feeling the heat from the mother, the heartbeat, picking up on the mother's scent, and hearing the mother's/father's voice. Of course all of this isn't just important ONLY on the day of the birth, but it is afterall a very impressionable time regardless.

They've discovered that the previous generation's methods of cutting the cord as quickly as possible and whisking the baby away to the nursery are potentially detrimental. This makes sense from a nature standpoint since mother's are generally protective of their newborns and a baby that's whisked away might seem to invoke an innate panic/danger response.

This is not a judgement call to mothers that may have had similar experiences, so don't read into it too much.

However, the studies are out there and are interesting regardless. Thankfully, the hospital that we will deliver at reinforces the methods to strengthen the bond between father, mother, and baby shortly after birth. Interventions or no.

[felix23]

No, I don't think it plays any part in it. Right now I know three mothers that all had c-sections, all planned to CIO, spank, and the second they had their baby, they changed their mind. This was without reading any AP material.

I also know of two people who had natural home births, read the Dr. Sears books, and still not only practiced CIO with very young babies, but they also followed the Pearls and started spanking when their babies were six months old.

What it came down to was that the second set of people came from religious families that taught that co-sleeping and listening to your baby was a sin. The first group came from families, that even though they CIO and spanked, didn't teach them that doing otherwise was wrong. The family background is way more important then the birth when it comes to parenting.

[the_lissa]

Originally Posted by gcgirl

I think lack of support and a social network has a lot more to do with parenting difficulties than the birth experience.

Yes exactly.

I have three wildly different births, and I had no problem bonding with my babies or parenting them or anything

[limette]

Anecdotally, my first was a homebirth transfer that resulted in every pain killer available, pitocin and eventually a c-section. I bonded with her straight away and had the baby pinks for months after the birth.

My second was a drug free, intervention free vbac and although I had no trouble bonding with dd2 there was no high like in the first one. In fact I was left wondering what the big deal was in regards to drug free/vaginal birth.

I'm still a great mom regardless of the birth experiences.

[JessicaS]

Originally Posted by KGB

This is not a judgement call to mothers that may have had similar experiences, so don't read into it too much.

However, the studies are out there and are interesting regardless. Thankfully, the hospital that we will deliver at reinforces the methods to strengthen the bond between father, mother, and baby shortly after birth. Interventions or no.

You are right, it is really important not to take things personally. Often the message gets drowned out by people being offended and applying all sorts of situations to things. There are exceptions to every rule, which those studies include.

There is no doubt that natural birth is best for the mother and baby. Promoting natural birth isn't an insult to those who did not experience natural birth and is it not condemning anyone as bad mothers.

There are studies backing these issues but it is also good to look at those who are the exceptions as long as people are willing to discuss things rationally and fairly.

I certainly wouldn't want to stick my neck out as someone who never had a natural birth if I am going to feel like people are calling me a bad mother. But of course, no one *is* saying that

[prancie]

I don't think that parents who do CIO are neglectful. I don't agree with it as a method and I think it may be damaging. However it is a method with purpose and I've never heard a mother who did it who didn't comment that it was hard to listen to the baby cry. I hate it and would never do it, but there is a difference between abject apathy and neglect for a child and a purposeful method with limits and goals.