I need some objective opinions on vaccines

[lisa1008]

Hi,

I started taking my daughter to a new ped. that I really like. My first ped. dropped me because I didn't adhere to their vaccine schedule. This new doctor doesn't do that, she actually takes a dual natural/conventional approach and let's parents choose their own schedule. That being said, my 20 month old has received no vaccines yet and I still breastfeed, however, I am ready to begin weaning and hope to be done by her second birthday. I thought that by bf. for two years I was out of the woods for the PC and HIB vaccines. However, she told me she would highly recommend getting those two shots because both PC and HIB can continue up to the 5th bday and be very serious. Without the protection of breastfeeding, I feel very nervous now. She told me she had a few patients over the course of her ten years in medicine die of pc/hib related meningitis illnesses and were perfectly healthy children with no underlying conditions and past the toddler years. This really scares me alot. What can I do?

[~Charlie's~Angel~]

My objective opinion will probably not sound very objective.

Shes trying to scare you into atleast vaxxing with her favorite. Every Ped has one. Mine loves the DTap vax. She (very gently) pushes for it every time we go for a WBV.

Neither of my boys are breastefed anymore, DS1 hasnt been BFed since 4 months old, and I dont worry about either of those diseases. Charlie was vaxxed on schedule until 4 months old. Matthew has only ever been stuck with a Vit K needle his entire life. I plan to keep it that way until they both can make the decision themselves.

DId your ped happen to mention if the children she was referring to were vaxxed or not?

I tend to take those kinds of stories at face value, because you are never getting ALLLLLL the information, KWIM?

Good luck!

[AFWife]

See, Dr. Sears' Vaccine Book says you're out of the danger woods at 2 years...

[xmasbaby7]

I will try and be as objective as possible.

I do know that the information your new ped gave you was NOT objective because if she actually DID see two healthy (completely subjective, relative term) die of it in ten years in her practice, then she herself has had an experience that exceeds the data.

My DH's neighbor died from bacterial meningitis in the early 80's, so I researched the heck out of both Hib and Prevnar to see if there were benefits that outweighed their risk, and I still concluded no.

I find the concept of serotype replacement scary as hell and an irresponsible public health band-aid that will come back to bite us.

Bacterial infections are scary, don't get me wrong, but the best way for a body to protect itself from any bacterial infection, both the few strains included in each of those vaccines and the far greater majority NOT included in those vaccines is to have a robust immune system with healthy gut flora that has had no intervention with antibiotics. It is essential to understand the science behind a bacterial infection so that you can make educated decisions for your whole family on when to resort to antibiotics.

My own "vaccine" I give my dd (who is unvaxed) to protect her is that she was EBF and nursed for 2.5 years. She did have one course of antibiotics I regret to this day from an ear infection that developed while flying. She receives probiotics, EFAs, and Vitamin C regularly. I have since seen her fight off the nastiest strep infection in 48 hours (with no antibiotics) that wiped my dh and I out for 3 weeks.

I believe in the prudent use of antibiotics, just as I also love the "idea" of vaccines, but the reality is that antibiotics, like vaccines, are far less effective than anyone in the medical field realizes. Sometimes they do work, many times they don't.

I yielded to taking two different kinds for the aforementioned strep infection and neither worked. It was ultimately weeks and weeks of rest that enabled my body to rebalance the beneficial and strep bacteria. And it DID NOT prevent transmission, as my dh caught it from me at the tail end.

My bigger point is that bacterial infections are really important to understand and monitor, but I absolutely think I have protected my daughter from an invasive Hib, pneumococcal, or strep infection far more effectively by nurturing her unvaxed immune system and promoting healthy gut flora.

As parents we love absolute answers and guarantees, but there just aren't any in health decisions, regardless of our vax stances and chocies. I am extremely comfortable with the protective choices I have made for my child's health and consider her risks of serious illness very, very low.

[Sileree]

Your ped is right, unfortunately kids are still vulnerable to invasive bacterial infections until about 5 years old (though they start to build some immunity at about 2-3 years). Rates of meningitis from Hib peak at 6-11 months but rates of epiglottis peak at 3 years (I think).

I don't want to lead you to believe that breastfeeding is 100% protective, but there is some research that shows that the protection from breastfeeding extends beyond the point of weaning.

Check out: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12352801

Have you looked into the risk factors for Hib and pneumo? That might help you make a more informed decision based on your personal situation.

Also, I am not encouraging you to get or to not get the shot, but as far as I know, at her age your DD would require only one dose of an Hib vaccine, not a primary series like if you start at 2 months. Just FYI.

HTH.

[Marnica]

It's funny how many peds have horror stories and play the dead baby card when it comes to their pet vaccines....

Our first ped said the same thing......

My advice would be to research the heck out of these 2 vaccines and the bacteria they are meant to protect against. There are risks either way...nothing is gaunanteed. You have to do a risk/benefit analysis for your situation.

[Arduinna]

Have no idea what PC stands for, and I'll admit I'm not objective. Sounds like the typical scare tactics to me. I wouldn't even bother with a Ped anyway.

[lisa1008]

I too, read the sears vaccine book and in the question/answer portion, he did say if you aren't going to vaccinate by 2 years for the "infant" diseases, then there is no reason to "play catch up, you either vaccinate during infancy for the diseases that pose danger during infancy, or you don't." I thought by 2 years or so, I would be out of the woods, so to speak. Now, my ped. told me that HIB can occur up to 5 years old and I feel insecure all over again. I don't want to feel nervous about my daughter playing with other children in play groups, etc. with the whole "HIB/PC" thing floating over my head every time we go to the playground. My choice was not to vaccinate at least until my daughter was in her early childhood years if at all. I felt comfortable with that until now. I have breastfed the whole time, supplemented my daughter with vitamin D and C through the winter months and kept her out of overly crowded areas and daycare situations. I was just starting to feel at ease and now, I feel really insecure again.
Also, does anyone know of a good probiotic supplement for children? I have heard that most lose their efficiency by the time they reach your cupboard or fridge.

[mamadelbosque]

My old family practice doc's 'pet' vaccine was either hib or pneumo too (I forget now. Haven't seen him in over 2 yrs...). Anyhow, personally I don't se the point in either - theres *TONS* of sero-type replacement going on now with both these diseases and theres just *no* point, IMHO in "vaccinating" against *bacteria*!! Bacteria are *SO* pervasive and *CONSTANTLY* evolving that as soon as we get rid of one strand, another is going to take its place. Its just a loosing battle - get rid of strand a, and be takes over, get rid of a & b, and c takes over, get rid of a & b & c and d and e and f and g, etc are all just waiting in the wings, waiting for their turn to reak havock. So, whats the point??

[nia82]

I recommend too to research. PC never crossed my mind really, but HiB did, and I really thought very hard about it...
I decided against it. Reading all the papers, breastfeeding studies, serotype replacement, ingredient lists, risk factors, I felt not comfortable to vaccinate for HiB.
It is a personal experience, but I really don't know anyone who ever got a bacterial invasive infections in my childhood (I as many of my peers was bottlefed, vaccinated with DTP and live Polio, in daycare from 12 months) and I just don't know anyone; my mom never was scared of us getting meningitis, really. My uncle actually did die from HiB long before I was born, which he got at 4 years (don't ask me what kind of experiments they were doing there in East Germany) following a smallpox vaccination which was mandatory in the 50ies.. He got really sick from the shot and then contracted HiB.

HiB is serious, I don't want to say at all it's not.

[zinemama]

I think you should research. Get some books. Stephanie Cave's is good; she's an MD and gives a good description of each vax, its history, side effects, the disease it's meant for, etc. Look for studies (PubMed is a good place to start). Some people like the Sears book mentioned by pp. But honestly, I wouldn't look on an internet forum for objective opinions about much of anything.

[AbbieB]

I think anytime a doctor plays the dead baby/child card a red flag should go up. It's a scare tactic.

Our family doc likes the chicken pox vaccine and played the dead baby card with that one.

[ammiga]

Every ped has a pet vax. Ours was rotavirus and hib. If you researched your decision and felt comfortable with it, go back to the reasons you felt that not vaxing out-weighed the benefits of vaxing. If you still feel good about those, forget what a vax-pushing ped is telling you. Remember, that's what peds do... they push vaxes. They know that once they get you started you are more likely to continue.

Personally, I worry way more about serotype replacement than hib. There was another poster on here a while ago, and she found out that when the culture for hi that they don't even test for the strain anymore. So even if your dd got an hi infection, odds of it being "b" are low, and odds of anyone being able to say for certain which strain it was are even lower.

Isn't it France that doesn't even recommend Pc if the child is bf for more than 3 months?

And remember, bfing did not only give your dd benefits while she was actually nursing. It helped her to build an amazing immune system that will last her for her entire life.

[anj_rn]

I would also look at prevalence of the illness in your area. I have actually taken care of a patient with Hib meningitis, but I have also taken care of patients who dies from meningiococcal meninigitis & viral meningitis. They are all scary, but the risk factors vary. Just because there is a vax for it, does not mean every child needs it.

My kids are more vaxed then I had planned to to DD's needs, but I look at each vax individually along with my kids risk of contracting it.

Load up on info, then let your brain make the decision, not your heart strings (which every doc knows how to pull).

[japonica]

Originally Posted by lisa1008

I too, read the sears vaccine book and in the question/answer portion, he did say if you aren't going to vaccinate by 2 years for the "infant" diseases, then there is no reason to "play catch up, you either vaccinate during infancy for the diseases that pose danger during infancy, or you don't." I thought by 2 years or so, I would be out of the woods, so to speak. Now, my ped. told me that HIB can occur up to 5 years old and I feel insecure all over again. I don't want to feel nervous about my daughter playing with other children in play groups, etc. with the whole "HIB/PC" thing floating over my head every time we go to the playground. My choice was not to vaccinate at least until my daughter was in her early childhood years if at all. I felt comfortable with that until now. I have breastfed the whole time, supplemented my daughter with vitamin D and C through the winter months and kept her out of overly crowded areas and daycare situations. I was just starting to feel at ease and now, I feel really insecure again.

Yes, Hib can occur in older children, but the rate is lower and therefore so is the risk. There was a thread where we looked at the stats and showed that the risk of invasive Hib is NOT an equal rate during the first 5 years. It's higher the younger the child and starts to decrease after age 2.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1051281

I would also look at reported cases in your area and other risk factors, just to help put the situation into perspective. Neither of my children are vaccinated against Hib, and not to minimize that it can be serious when it's an invasive infection, no doubt, I think there's a lot more to the issue...carriage rates, etc. Kids pre-vaccine carried the bacteria and were perceived as immune usually after age 5. I know in my generation, my parents never even heard of it. Doctors didn't mention it to them. And we were bottle fed, fed processed food...you name it.

I would keep reading and investigating...don't rush out and vaccinate based on what the doctor said. You have to feel confident in your decision, whatever you choose to do. Between last week and this week, I'd imagine not much has changed in terms of risk factors or Hib rates in your area.

[TanyaS]

Originally Posted by xmasbaby7

I find the concept of serotype replacement scary as hell and an irresponsible public health band-aid that will come back to bite us.

Originally Posted by Arduinna

Sounds like the typical scare tactics to me. I wouldn't even bother with a Ped anyway.

Originally Posted by ammiga

Every ped has a pet vax.

Are you frightened of HiA? Non-typable Hi? Because of vaccination, these are the diseases now causing invasive disease. Why doesn't your pedi try to frighten you about these? Because there's no vaccine for them (yet).

http://www.cdc.gov/eid/content/16/3/455.htm

Among non-b encapsulated H. influenzae, types f (72%) and e (21%) were responsible for almost all cases; the overall case-fatality rate was 9%. Thus, the incidence of invasive non–type b H. influenzae is now higher than that of Hib and is associated with higher case fatality.

Article (in three parts...be sure to click through) about HiB, Prevnar (Pc) and serotype replacement.

Some great info about HiB.

And more about Pneumococcal (which has a lovely relationship with resistant staph aka MRSA).

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by lisa1008

I too, read the sears vaccine book and in the question/answer portion, he did say if you aren't going to vaccinate by 2 years for the "infant" diseases, then there is no reason to "play catch up, you either vaccinate during infancy for the diseases that pose danger during infancy, or you don't." I thought by 2 years or so, I would be out of the woods, so to speak. Now, my ped. told me that HIB can occur up to 5 years old and I feel insecure all over again. I don't want to feel nervous about my daughter playing with other children in play groups, etc. with the whole "HIB/PC" thing floating over my head every time we go to the playground. My choice was not to vaccinate at least until my daughter was in her early childhood years if at all. I felt comfortable with that until now. I have breastfed the whole time, supplemented my daughter with vitamin D and C through the winter months and kept her out of overly crowded areas and daycare situations. I was just starting to feel at ease and now, I feel really insecure again.
Also, does anyone know of a good probiotic supplement for children? I have heard that most lose their efficiency by the time they reach your cupboard or fridge.

Just want to point out that HI disease can occur at ANY age....it can occur in adults. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t=AbstractPlus
The likely hood of an HIB infection decreases dramatrically after 2 and even more so after 5. It doesn't mean it can't and doesn't happen at any age. In fact I'm surprised the FDA/CDC has not tried to create and add an adult HIB vaccine to the adult rec. schedule, because after all it IS possible. Are you worried about yourself getting HIB??

[Tracy]

lordy. sounds like scare tactics to me.


fwiw-----

Here are the hard numbers for 2009. This is what I found for the last week of the year... http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5851md.htm

.. this is the total amount of cases reported to the CDC for 2009.....

Total reported cases to the cdc:

Disease Cases

Diptheria 0
Measles 61
Mumps 977
Rubella 4
Congenital rubella 1
Tetanus 12
Hib (under 5)
Sero b-21
Non sero b-201
Unknown b-213


Out of a population of 300 million people in the united states.

[PlayaMama]

Originally Posted by zinemama

I think you should research. Get some books. Stephanie Cave's is good; she's an MD and gives a good description of each vax, its history, side effects, the disease it's meant for, etc. Look for studies (PubMed is a good place to start). Some people like the Sears book mentioned by pp. But honestly, I wouldn't look on an internet forum for objective opinions about much of anything.

especially the bolded. i think we all come here because we like to talk about our opinions and our opinions are all formed as a basis of our experiences and the fact that your doctor had two healthy patients die was probably a HUGE impact on her.

fwiw, i did vax my ds for hib and not my 2 yo dd. after researching, i do not think i will vax her for that when i start her vaxes but i am not certain. meningitis is not something to mess around with and if there is some protection offered then i think i might want to take advantage of it. i will be doing more research myself!

i think it is important to remember that a doctor/patient relationship is a partnership and i would encourage you to educate yourself and then discuss your concerns with her.