Is living common law with a child together sin? - Page 2

[Shami]

Originally Posted by Smokering

There's nothing in the NT that says TO have a wedding either. Or the OT. There's the commandment not to have sex outside of marriage and to be faithful within it, but marriage is never defined in terms of a wedding. The original prototype for marriage is given in Genesis 2, and involves a man leaving his father and mother and cleaving to his wife, and they becoming one flesh. Pretty simple, really.

Good point about Gen 2. So what are they doing in the wedding feast? I mean what is the point of the public display? I think there are a lot of reasons to have a public ceremony according to the Bible. It is true that there are no specific 'how tos'. But the evidence to do it is there. I think it was Matt 22, John, and Luke.

[Smokering]

So what are they doing in the wedding feast?

Drinking. Well, celebrating. Nothing wrong with that, just as there's nothing wrong with celebrating the birth of a baby, which cultures do in more or less formal degrees, or celebrating the purchase of a house or the getting of a PhD. But we don't consider it immoral not to do those things, and the importance placed on the celebrative/public aspect varies from family to family, let alone culture to culture. SIL had a big baby shower, an announcement in the paper and a fancy Catholic baptism when her son was born; I didn't when my daughter was born. It didn't mean I was less serious about parenthood than she was.

I think there are a lot of reasons to have a public ceremony according to the Bible. It is true that there are no specific 'how tos'. But the evidence to do it is there. I think it was Matt 22, John, and Luke.

I' say that those passages provide evidence that it was done in ancient Israel, and that Jesus didn't disapprove (He presumably wouldn't have attended if He were anti-weddings); but I don't see any indication that it was considered morally necessary to have a public celebration. Under Jewish law it was probably necessary to have some sort of formal contract with a witness, because of the strict laws about pre-/extramarital sex - ie, to prove that a couple were actually married and not fornicating. And even today there are many very good, sensible reasons to have a wedding. I mentioned some in my previous post. I just don't think that because marriage began with an elaborate public ceremony in ancient Israel, it is a moral imperative to begin a marriage in the same manner today. (We don't, anyway. Western weddings don't have the groom coming at an unexpected hour of the night with a procession to claim the bride, as the parable of the wise and foolish virgins talks about.) I don't think it's a moral imperative for Christians even to be civilly married in order to be considered married in God's eyes (ie. not fornicating). It's not a matter of disobedience to the State, because the State allows for common-law marriage. It could come under the "not causing your brother to stumble" clause, perhaps prompting another couple to start living together without being committed for life because "H and J are doing it, so it must be OK" - but this wouldn't apply in some situations, such as an already-living-together couple (perhaps a slightly older couple) joining a church where it is assumed they are legally married.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by Shami

I also think it is important to satisfy the laws of the land, whatever that is where you live. If where you live, common law marriage is acceptable, then that's fine. Just wondering out loud: Can you get a certificate or license for common law marriages?

Up through the medieval period, the Church was in charge of marriage. The man and woman only had to dedicate themselves to one another for it to be a "real" marriage, because in the view of the Western Church, the husband and wife are the ones who administer the sacrament. At the end of this period the rule began to change, both in Catholic and Protestant countries. Catholics and Englishmen, for example, had to have their marriages witnessed by a priest in almost all circumstances.

Many countries now also require that people get a marriage license and record the marriage to be considered legally married in the eyes of the state. Many churches will not agree to marry people without this, not because it isn't possible, but because it is seen to be important to fulfill these legal requirements as citizens.

A common-law marriage is in some places just a name for people living together as if married, but without a legal marriage. But it may hold no legal status at all.

In many places though, it holds some legal status. Usually, the people must have met the same legal requirements as for a civil marriage, and sometimes they have to live together for a certain length of time. THey are supposed to be presenting themselves to the public as husband and wife. (So, I knew a gay man and elderly woman who were officially a common-law couple - that wasn't really quite above board.)

They may then be considered the same, legally, as a civil marriage, but often that is not the case. This is an important point because people often mistakenly assume there legal rights are the same. For example, after we married my husband and I lived in the house he already owned. Had we divorced, we would have split all our assets. In a common-law relationship in my province, the house would have gone to him, unless I could prove in court I had significantly contributed.

We also have another legal form of relationship here, called a registered partnership, which gives the same legal status as marriage. But there is no presumption of any sexual relationship - two sisters who chose to make a home together could register, so that they could get pension benefits and so on.

[Shami]

This is interesting, and thanks, Bluegoat, for all of the history.
I'll just give my 2 cents worth regarding Smokering's statement about not feeling that a public ceremony/declaration is morally necessary. In a black and white kind of way, you may be right...but....

The believers that I meet with feel that is is imperative to try to take care of the body of Christ by not stumbling one another. Smokering mentioned that in her previous post. Smokering is right, there is no Biblical command TO have a public declaration. I think we are agreeing to an extent. I may fall on the side of more caution toward other believers. The need to care for our fellow believers and to be a testimony to unbelievers is really important in my spiritual walk. So, I guess that I feel, in principle, it is best to have a public declaration. That public declaration could be that the two stand up and say, Hey! We're married! Something simple in order to prevent unnecessary gossip, judgement, and an anti testimony.

I realize that not all believers feel this way. Many people feel like if anyone has a problem with the way I live, well, it's THEIR problem. I can understand this view, too.

[umsami]

You can read about the history of common law marriage on wiki. The Catholic church abolished marriage in secret at the Council of Trent in the 16th century. The Anglican Church abolished it later in the 18th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common-...rriage#History


So, as far as I can tell, it's banning by the church is a relative recent phenomenon (in terms of church history).

In Islam, for a marriage to be "legal", it cannot be secret and there should be at least two witnesses. The marriage is more of a legal contract than a religious ceremony, though. There is a concept called a "muta" marriage--temporary marriage--but most people do not recognize those as "legal" from a religious standpoint... as they tend to harm the woman (she is often unmarriageable afterwards and has no legal recourse, nor support).

[shanniesue2]

Originally Posted by haleyelianasmom

I agree with shanniesue2. We can have this inner guilt feeling when we eat fast food. Does that make it a sin? No, it's just something that we've been told is wrong. Really explore WHY you felt bad about it. Was it because you thought people were judging you? Or because you've been told it is sinful? Or because you didn't thin the relationship was going well?

Just to clarify my post a little bit... I'm not saying that living with a bf or that have sex outside of marriage is a sin... I'm also not saying that it isn't a sin. I know what I, personally, believe about it. But what I'm saying is that what I, or anyone else on MDC or IRL, believe about your lifestyle isn't as relevant as what YOU believe about it and how it either helps or hinders you in being the kind of person YOU believe you should be. Even though my current viewpoint on sin is vastly different from what I was taught, one of the things that I was taught is that the state of a person's soul is between that person and God. And I still believe something very similar... I believe that I, nor anyone else, have place to pass judgement on you and whether or not you are living sinfully. You have to look to your own conscience/god/creator/who or whatever you believe in to help you determine whether or not you need to make a lifestyle change. And I also believe that we are programmed (for better or worse) by people around us as we grow up to have certain values. And at some point, we should make a conscious decision to adopt those values as our own and/or to develop our own values that we hold to be true.

But I'm not someone who puts much value in absolutes or in being told what I'm supposed to believe... so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt if you like

[Jaesun's Dad]

We wouldn't even qualify as "common law" but I know in my heart that God smiles on us as a family. I never believed unmarried sex itself to be sin, rather, the spirit of the connection between the partners is the bond not a state sanctioned certificate proving a ceremony has been performed. Or, as I often have said "there's a difference between making love and having sex." It's a strong belief of my partner but one I've adopted for myself: Our son chose us to be his parents. The time of conception was probably a "now or never" proposition. It was not planned, but life chose us and we chose life. It happened at a high point in our relationship, after a wonderful evening and when we were both spiritually elevated.

I cannot possibly look at my son and deny that God exists. I'm not a Christian; I'm a theist without religion. But the spirit of God is stronger than ever in my life now. Much stronger than it ever was when I was compelled to attend formal services. Much stronger than it ever was when I blindly but willingly prayed and memorized bible verses and attended Sunday school and youth meetings when I was younger ... when I truly believed everything they told me in church without questioning it. The God of my heart now is the True God for me. He speaks to me often through the world around me, through my son, through small day to day revelations that affirm all the little beliefs I hold one by one.

I have plenty of sin to be sure, but living with my family isn't among them. I would like for us to be married. I am wanting to commit and would like to be assured the commit is mutual. But a ceremony and a piece of paper isn't an assurance of this. It would be very practical for me in terms of insuring my partner and for tax reasons, but again that's not a good reason to get married. It would certainly give me a lot more rights and a lot more legal protections in the future, but that's not a good reason either. But out of all the reasons, including the commitment at the top of the list, none of my reasons have a thing to do with the acceptance of our union in the eyes of God. There are many compelling reasons I can add which would help with both our families where being accepted in the eyes of the church would be a big plus, but the church is not God. As far as God is concerned I know we're fine. It's what others choose to believe is God's concern that's ... concerning.

[bluebirdiemama]

I don't neccesarily think you need to have a ceremony to be married in the eyes of God. But I do think that any sex between the two of you before you had a deep spiritual commitment and promise to each other might cause you guilt.

BTW I am currently dealing with my own issues of guilt and sex. I see the Lord directing me through it and teaching me/showing me truths. In my situation I have guilt pile up from relationships before my marriage.

[PinkNFluffy]

Thanks everyone for the replies.

I am currently living on my own but I still love my ex, we had a lot of relationship problems and I did feel in my heart it was sin but it felt so good to make love to him, it was very odd that it could be wrong when it felt right.

Anyway, it's good to know this for the future, too. I can't see myself not having sex for years, I just can't.

[cappuccinosmom]

I am currently living on my own but I still love my ex, we had a lot of relationship problems and I did feel in my heart it was sin but it felt so good to make love to him, it was very odd that it could be wrong when it felt right

.


You have to work with your own conciense, but this struck me.

Something may feel good in the moment and still not be beneficial for us in the long term. Why do we sin in any way? Because at the moment it feels good or serves us or fills a need we have that we don't want to go through the effort of filling the healthy way. Whatever your conclusion on this issue, take into consideration that just because something feels good in the moment doesn't mean it is necessarily ethical or moral.

[Shami]

Originally Posted by PinkNFluffy

Thanks everyone for the replies.

I am currently living on my own but I still love my ex, we had a lot of relationship problems and I did feel in my heart it was sin but it felt so good to make love to him, it was very odd that it could be wrong when it felt right.

Anyway, it's good to know this for the future, too. I can't see myself not having sex for years, I just can't.

I had the same situation where I knew that I would not be able to keep from having sex. So, I told the Lord, if you don't want me to have sex outside of marriage then you'd better get me married. I guess I told the Lord that it would be His fault based on His word. The Bible says it's better to marry than to burn with desire (paraphrasing) and also God created Adam and Eve to be one. It's biblical to need a spouse to satisfy that desire. It's totally normal to need sex and God made a way to give us all a spouse. If He doesn't give a person a spouse, then He gives them the grace to be single.
While I was waiting for my husband, I stayed busy and tried to stay out of places that would temp me.
Like Cappuccino'smom, the part of your post that said that you felt it was sin but it felt so good and how could that be wrong? stuck out at me. Lots of things feel good, but may not be healthy for us. Pizza and beer, topped off with a chocolate sundae feel good, but it's not healthy. Keep in mind that you have three parts, according to my understanding. You have a physical body, a psychology (your mind, emotion, and will), and spirit that you can use to contact God. I try to do things that will keep all three parts of me healthy, growing, and functioning.
My prayer for you is that you will find God through all of this and He will be your strength and supply to meet all of your needs, including the sexual need.