My 14 year old daughter refuses to wear a bra - Page 2

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by SoulCakes

How is that a myth? Skin is only so elastic; it stretches when weight (breast tissue) holds it down. It's just biology/physics. Bras counteract (to some extent) the being held down, therefore bras counteract (to some extent) the stretching of the skin.

I've always believed it to be a myth. I've worn a bra since I first sprouted "buds". I was sagging by the time I was 13. I try to remember that I may be the exception (as nothing drives me crazier than someone saying "blah blah blah doesn't do x, y, z - I know, because I had/did blah blah blah and x, y, z didn't happen to me"), but emotionally, I just can't do the "bras prevent sagging" thing, yk?

[laohaire]

From what I've read the "bras prevent sagging" thing is a myth, but I don't remember where I read it nor can I quote peer reviewed studies or anything. At the very least, it's not anywhere near a sure thing that bras prevent sagging.

Seems to me like pregnancy causes most of the sag.

It just seems weird to me that we're designed to be defective without modern clothing or something.

[SashaBreeze]

The deal I worked out with my oldest (because I had modesty concerns as well) is that as long as nothing is showing whether or not she wears a bra is her concern but if she is hanging out of her shirt or showing major nipple through the shirt she has to wear a bra. For what it is worth on those occasions she wears a sports bra. She has a couple of tanks with built in sports bras and seems to like those best.

On the topic of saggy breast. Am I the only one that likes her sag? I think it looks nice. I look at my body, the stretch marks, the stretched out breast and elongated nipples, the loose skin at the bottom of my stomach and remember all of my pregnancies. I think to myself "Your body shouts I AM A MOTHER". I think the body of an older mother is beautiful, saggy breast and all.

[SoulCakes]

Originally Posted by laohaire

Seems to me like pregnancy causes most of the sag.

Totally. Increased breast size stretches the skin. My point was that there's also the "daily sag" of just weight vs. skin. If the weight isn't being applied to the skin because of wearing a bra, then it logically follows that the "daily sag" is going to be reduced. Bras certainly aren't going to prevent all sagging (I mean, even our face starts to sag after a while - it's just the nature of skin!). And those of us with less elastic skin are going to be more susceptible to sagging than others, not that that's all bad:

Originally Posted by SashaBreeze

Am I the only one that likes her sag? I think it looks nice. I look at my body, the stretch marks, the stretched out breast and elongated nipples, the loose skin at the bottom of my stomach and remember all of my pregnancies. I think to myself "Your body shouts I AM A MOTHER". I think the body of an older mother is beautiful, saggy breast and all.

This is beautiful, thank you.

[journeymom]

Hi Svart! I notice this is your very first post to MDC.

Feel free to post over at the Pleased to Meet You forum, as well. We'd like to get to know you better.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by SashaBreeze

On the topic of saggy breast. Am I the only one that likes her sag? I think it looks nice. I look at my body, the stretch marks, the stretched out breast and elongated nipples, the loose skin at the bottom of my stomach and remember all of my pregnancies. I think to myself "Your body shouts I AM A MOTHER". I think the body of an older mother is beautiful, saggy breast and all.

I don't like or dislike it. It's just there. However, it also doesn't say "I am a mother" to me, because I've had it since I was 12 or 13.

I like my stretch marks, though. I try not to think too much about pregnancy, but I do like my stretch marks. My body did something right.

[bestjob]

I support (oooh bad pun) the suggestion of getting an expert bra fitting.

I also think that having a chat about the "message" of wobbly breasts and visible nipple outlines is worthwhile. What is comfortable on a beach may not work in an interview for a great volunteer position, and your dd is at an age when she might be thinking about having fun on the beach with friends and also trying to land a great volunteer job.

She needs to know what part of her to project (sorry, these awful puns can't be avoided) and when.

It won't all become instantly clear. We're all different people at different times. That's not a bad thing. It's something we all have to learn, though.

[briome]

What an intersting thread!

I remember being about 13 and wearing a 'training bra' for the buds and my GRANDFATHER of all people came in and noticed right away and said "oh, I see your wearing a BRA!" how hummiliating! I was wearing a nice shirt over it of course! The nerve!

When your very young it seems like BRA's can draw more attention to your sexuality then not.... like telling the world that you are aware of your growth and am embracing your 'womanhood' and unless you feel ready for that, egnoring it seems like a logical delay technique!

I've worked with a lot of young people in this age group and MOST cannot stand to be baggered by Mom. I think you would have more sucsess if you pretended like it didn't matter to you and have a favorite relative (aunt, cousin) give her a tank top with a bra shelf in it!

[orangefoot]

http://www.brafree.org/faq.html#1

I don't see why wearing under shirt or wearing an additional over layer like a vest is attracting attention to one's breasts any more than seeing the seams of a bra cup, the straps or the whole bra itself through a shirt.

The message of wobbly breasts and nipple outlines in volunteer interviews? Give me a break. What about dressing modestly? What do I have to learn, sorry? I have held professional jobs without wearing a bra and tend to go about my business expecting people to treat me as something other than nipples with me attached.

So many messed up messages y'know.

[PatienceAndLove]

I believe that it is a modesty issue. But then again, I operate on the idea that I should strive to dress and act in such a way that I don't purposely cause another person to sin. If I have strived to act and look in such a way, and that person still thinks or acts sinfully, that is between that person and God.

On that note- wobbley breasts and prominent nipples can lead boys, and young and older men into sinful sexual thoughts. And I, for one, do NOT want my daughter to be viewed as a sexual object. I have started having her wear undershirts now so she is used to the extra layer (not to mention that little girls pants are low cut, and undershirts are longer than regular shirts, thus they can be tucked in)

I am well endowed, as well, and have been wearing bras since I was 10. I found that going to the Bali/Hanes/Playtex store was very worthwhile. I was fitted and then had A LOT of different styles to choose from. I spent most of my preteen years in wirefree bras that were very comfy. I now wear underwire bras, and have a few heavily seamed wirefree bras for comfy days. I find having unencumbered bras is a actually a hinder to my movements and actions.

Some links you and your daughter could check out together, and find something that appeals to her.
Wirefree Bras
T-Shirt Bras
Yoga Tank with built-in shelf bra
Wire free T-shirt bras
Strappy sports bras (I am actually SUPER jealous of these! These look so crazy comfy! Personally, this is what I could choose. They look like crop tops, but have straps that could be worn under a dress or a tank top without having the racerback straps showing.

[itsrtimedownhere]

Originally Posted by SoulCakes

How is that a myth? Skin is only so elastic; it stretches when weight (breast tissue) holds it down. It's just biology/physics. Bras counteract (to some extent) the being held down, therefore bras counteract (to some extent) the stretching of the skin.

Agreed, however, that if she doesn't want to wear a bra then there's nothing left to do or discuss.

breasts aren't held up by skin. they are held up by tendons in your chest. when you wear a bra, the tendons get atrophied and that can cause your breasts to sag.

i stopped wearing a bra 3 years ago and my breasts got perkier.

[mtiger]

Another point wrt sports bras, if "tomboy" includes athletic activity. My 16yo is extremely active in sports, but since she's not too large up top, doesn't have much discomfort going braless. BUT... when it's warm out, she likes the option a sports bra offers of taking her shirt off. She's still well covered, comfortable, and cool (temp wise).

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by PatienceAndLove

I believe that it is a modesty issue. But then again, I operate on the idea that I should strive to dress and act in such a way that I don't purposely cause another person to sin. If I have strived to act and look in such a way, and that person still thinks or acts sinfully, that is between that person and God.

On that note- wobbley breasts and prominent nipples can lead boys, and young and older men into sinful sexual thoughts.

I'm sorry, but there is no evidence whatsoever to back this up. The only association I've ever seen between being braless and sex is that our culture is (or was when I was younger - I don't know about now) so focused on bras as "proof" of modesty that any girl/woman who chose not to wear one was perceived as being "loose".

I also find the idea that dressing in a particular way "causes" another person to sin absolutely repulsive. If I walk down the street completely naked, and am raped, it is the rapist's fault, not mine. I can't "cause" someone else to sin, because the other person is responsible for his/her own actions. Period.

And I, for one, do NOT want my daughter to be viewed as a sexual object.

I've worn a bra every time I've ever left my house, and there is no way that having a bra on is going to prevent people from thinking sexual thoughts. I'm not comfortable thinking about people ogling my kids, either...but whether or not it happens has nothing to do with what they're wearing.

[7thDaughter]

A video speaks more clearly than Mom. Some weekend take some close-up video of her walking around and doing her sports stuff. Play it back without comment! Let her think about it. In the meantime find a good store that does fittings -- try them out yourself to find a good fitter. I found Macy's seem pretty good, staff at 2 different stores knew what they were doing. Other places I've tried advertised fittings but the person on staff really wasn't very good. So try it out ahead because a good fitter makes the difference. After a week ask her if she'd be willing to go to a fitting. Try not to gag at the cost of basic underwear...and buy quality. Cheap bras are like cheap shoes.

It may take some time. I was 21 when I got disgusted with an old guy who clearly and repeatedly stared at my chest. It was pretty much the last time I forgot to wear a bra.

[PatienceAndLove]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

I'm sorry, but there is no evidence whatsoever to back this up. The only association I've ever seen between being braless and sex is that our culture is (or was when I was younger - I don't know about now) so focused on bras as "proof" of modesty that any girl/woman who chose not to wear one was perceived as being "loose".

I also find the idea that dressing in a particular way "causes" another person to sin absolutely repulsive. If I walk down the street completely naked, and am raped, it is the rapist's fault, not mine. I can't "cause" someone else to sin, because the other person is responsible for his/her own actions. Period.

Again, this is all based on my opinion that is influenced by my experiences, upbringing, and world views.
I agree that a rape that occurs is the rapists fault. I am, however, not speaking of rape. Rape is about power and not sex, ergo it has no place in this conversation.
I am speaking of dressing in a way that is intentionally sexually provocative to entice a sexual reaction in others. IMHO- intentionally wearing tops that show your breasts or pants that are tight enough to look painted on is immodest, inappropriate, and purposely cause others to have sexual thoughts.
Lastly- I never said that a bra was proof of modesty and that women who do not wear them are loose. I have friends that go braless, and that is their choice. If they asked my opinion (as the OP did), I would share my opinion and why I have it.
As a PP mentioned, she has been ogled while not wearing a bra, as have I. I find the attention that my unencumbered breasts bring embarrassing.

I've worn a bra every time I've ever left my house, and there is no way that having a bra on is going to prevent people from thinking sexual thoughts. I'm not comfortable thinking about people ogling my kids, either...but whether or not it happens has nothing to do with what they're wearing.

I agree. People are going to think their own thoughts, and I cannot control that. I can, however, control the image that I put out for others to see.

[MusicianDad]

Her body, her choice. If she is more comfortable without a bra, then she has every right to no wear one. Far more of a right to not wear one then her parent has to make her wear one. Plenty of women don't wear bras, plenty of women only wear bras some times, and plenty of women only take them off for a shower.

She's not going to end up dead because she didn't wear a bra at 14.

[MusicianDad]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

I also find the idea that dressing in a particular way "causes" another person to sin absolutely repulsive. If I walk down the street completely naked, and am raped, it is the rapist's fault, not mine. I can't "cause" someone else to sin, because the other person is responsible for his/her own actions. Period.

Yeah, really. I mean are males so completely incapable of controlling themselves that it's up to the females they encounter to avoid causing them to think dirty thoughts? Not how I plan on raising either of my children. My daughter will be responsible for no one but herself and my son will be taught that he is the one who controls his thoughts and actions, not another person.

[2xy]

Originally Posted by SoulCakes

How is that a myth? Skin is only so elastic; it stretches when weight (breast tissue) holds it down. It's just biology/physics. Bras counteract (to some extent) the being held down, therefore bras counteract (to some extent) the stretching of the skin.

If bras prevented sagging, then the breasts wouldn't automatically drop down as soon as the bra is removed. I've never seen large breasts that stay "up there" when a bra comes off (unless they're ridiculously silicone in nature). And I've seen LOTS of boobs from past employment experiences.

[Peppermint Poppies]

Originally Posted by 2xy

And I've seen LOTS of boobs from past employment experiences.

Me too! I've worked in lots of nursing homes/aged care homes, and I can tell you .... I have NEVER seen a pair of perky boobs on an elderly lady. Bras or no bras - I think they all sag eventually. Our whole body sags as we get older, there's no reason our boobs would be any different.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by PatienceAndLove

Again, this is all based on my opinion that is influenced by my experiences, upbringing, and world views.
<snip>
I am speaking of dressing in a way that is intentionally sexually provocative to entice a sexual reaction in others.

What on earth does that have to do with not wearing a bra? I've never in my life met a man who found a woman going braless more provocative than a woman with her breasts held up and pointing at him...not one. I'm just wondering where you got the idea that not wearing a bra is somehow sexually provocative. In any case, this doesn't apply to the OP's dd, or to many (most?) women who choose to go braless. They choose it for reasons of comfort, and sometimes, feminist views (ie. they refuse to dress to appeal to men).

IMHO- intentionally wearing tops that show your breasts or pants that are tight enough to look painted on is immodest, inappropriate, and purposely cause others to have sexual thoughts.

None of that has anything to do with someone going braless, especially for rasons of comfort. I'm also not even remotely on board with you about "purposely causing" others to have sexual thoughts. Different people are titillated by different things.

Lastly- I never said that a bra was proof of modesty and that women who do not wear them are loose.

I never said that you said any such thing. My point is that the only association between being braless and attracting extra male attention is that there are (or were - as I said, I don't know if that mindset is still prevalent) people who think that. I knew a couple guys who liked girls who went braless, even though those guys didn't like how it looked, because they believed that a girl with no bra was "easy". They'd been taught that "good girls" wore bras, and girls who didn't were, by definition, not good. But, they didn't find the braless breasts any more appealing than the ones in bras, in and of themselves.

As a PP mentioned, she has been ogled while not wearing a bra, as have I. I find the attention that my unencumbered breasts bring embarrassing.

I'm genuinely curious. Where do you and the pp live? I've never left the house without a bra (except a few times, recently, when the kids took off and I hadn't put my bra on yet), and I've been ogled more times than I can count. I'm just trying to wrap my brain around the idea that there are men who are more likely to ogle a woman who isn't wearing a bra, because it's contrary to all my experience of men.

I agree. People are going to think their own thoughts, and I cannot control that. I can, however, control the image that I put out for others to see.

Fair enough. But, be aware that there are lots of men who are more likely to think sexual thoughts about you, or your daughter, when you're wearing a bra then when you're not. The mindset that a bra is inherently "more modest" is part of why so many men believe that a woman who is simply trying to stay comfortable must be an easy lay, and that mindset does a huge injustice to women, in general.