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Is it me, or do timeouts really not work?

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 
Or is it just that he's in a growing/learning phase....?

I started using timeouts for things like when he hurts the dog or just can't seem to stop hitting/kicking, basically just to separate him from the temptation b/c he just can't seem to listen sometimes. (He is 2, after all...)

After several months, I'm realizing that it just isn't working. We have some days where he's in timeout half a dozen times for hitting or throwing things at people. It's not how I want things to be, and the hitting has decreased somewhat, but it just doesn't seem to be working.

He KNOWS it's wrong to hit. We talk about the nice ways to touch (hugs, gentle petting) but there are days when he's just dead set on hitting and even talks about it in advance.

DH uses it quite liberally and it just sounds so ridiculous, even to me, when he yells for DS to go in the corner for some normal 2-year-old behavior that isn't socially acceptable. So what do you do instead of timeout?
post #2 of 27
I have a parenting secret for you:

With many kids this age, nothing "works".

In my experience, there are behaviors that kids just need to grow out of. In the mean time, we do our best to keep them from hurting people, and try to teach them the skills they will eventually be able to use to help themselves not do these things. Oh, and try to avoid getting so aggravated that we ruin our relationship with the kids.

I know it can be tough to keep saying things to your kid like, "honey, we do not hit the dog. If you want to hit something, you can hit a pillow. Let's go sit together until you are feeling more calm," and see him keep hitting the dog over and over again for a year. Obviously, you need to provide safe place for the dog to go when threatened by your child, and try to predict the situations when it might happen so you can be vigilant. But there may not be anything you can do as a parent to actually get your child to stop doing these things until he outgrows it.

I'm not suggesting that you should accept the behavior, it's important to keep taking action to make clear that the behavior is not acceptable and to prevent him from hurting people as much as possible. Just don't get hung up on "results."
post #3 of 27
Your son is two year old.

Just two.

Yes he might know that something is not right but he doesnt completely grasp what that means yet and he REALLY does not have the self control to stop himself from doing it.

I think expecting otherwise is really expecting too much from him. For my (now three year old) very spirited child timeouts would have done nothing. I dont agree with them personally but even if I did they would have done nothing to teach her right from wrong at all.
post #4 of 27
Thread Starter 
Okay, so I guess I suspected what you two are saying. That nothing will "work" b/c it's just something he will grow out of. So the real question then is, what do you do? There still has to be consequences or at least a reaction. He cannot just hit and have no correction. So do you keep doing timeout even though it's not "working?" Or just simply say, "No hitting" and expect that eventually he'll know not to hit? Or something else?
post #5 of 27
I think there are two things here. You mention that timeouts are used liberally in your house, so what does that teach him? When timeouts are used even in things that are normal that does not teach him right from wrong... does it?

Now, when hitting is involved I do believe that seperating him from whoever he is hitting is a good idea. If he cannot control himself you have to help him by getting him away so that he does not harm others.

Is he hitting while angry? If so maybe try to get him to tell you what is bothering him and communicate with you. Many children hit because they have no other way of communicating their frustration. Is this the case with your son?

Is he hitting while playing because he thinks that it is funny or while playing? if so he needs to understand that hitting is not an appropriate way of playing and that it hurts. He wont get this on the first, second, or maybe even 35th time because of his age but he will eventually get it.

I dont know what situations your child is hitting it or what is going on but you do and you can help by educating him or redirecting his energy to something productive.

I believe that discipline should educate not punish.
post #6 of 27
Time outs work here, but we don't do them often. We'll give his toys, markers, crayons etc time outs first. I watched a few episodes of Supernanny and found that they way she handles timeouts work for us. So when he does have them they are effective... but he's maybe getting them once a week... and he is not by any means an easy toddler.
post #7 of 27
Time outs don't work for children of any age. They only work for moms and dads who feel like they are losing it and need to go lock themselves in their bedroom for a while to cool down.

Time outs especially don't work for 2 year olds, who can't actually connect the "punishment" to the infraction, therefore it's completely useless and won't help the child to stop that behavior, at all. They just feel isolated, sad, left out and well, it only does bad things to the 2 year old, nothing good.

I volunteer for a rescue organization and there is good reason why we rarely adopt out to families with toddlers. Toddlers are not good pet caregivers. They hit, punch, pull, poke, and generally hurt animals, no matter how sweet and wonderful they are. It's the nature of a 2 year old to do that sort of thing. They don't have the ability or maturity yet to fully understand empathy. They can't yet put themselves in the place of the animal being hurt.

If you find it difficult to get your toddler to stop hurting your dog, you should figure out a way to protect your dog. Perhaps you could put up a baby gate between your toddler and the dog if you aren't able to be right there, watching every second of interaction and diverting if toddler grabs a toy and swings it around, for instance.
post #8 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by skueppers View Post
I know it can be tough to keep saying things to your kid like, "honey, we do not hit the dog. If you want to hit something, you can hit a pillow. Let's go sit together until you are feeling more calm," and see him keep hitting the dog over and over again for a year. Obviously, you need to provide safe place for the dog to go when threatened by your child, and try to predict the situations when it might happen so you can be vigilant. But there may not be anything you can do as a parent to actually get your child to stop doing these things until he outgrows it.

I'm not suggesting that you should accept the behavior, it's important to keep taking action to make clear that the behavior is not acceptable and to prevent him from hurting people as much as possible. Just don't get hung up on "results."
Quote:
Originally Posted by swd12422 View Post
Okay, so I guess I suspected what you two are saying. That nothing will "work" b/c it's just something he will grow out of. So the real question then is, what do you do? There still has to be consequences or at least a reaction. He cannot just hit and have no correction. So do you keep doing timeout even though it's not "working?" Or just simply say, "No hitting" and expect that eventually he'll know not to hit? Or something else?
What Skueppers said. And the Gentle Discipline forum is a great resource when you've got specific frustrations.

Redirect, distract, child-proof, and take deep breaths.

And either make every move towards the dog a game of "petting the dog gently" (with your hand controlling your ds's hand until he starts to learn) or make every move towards the dog time for the dog to go play in the yard.

A playful parenting (Playful Parenting, Lawrence Cohen) way of handling him having a desire to hit (as opposed to wanting to pet the dog and being bad at that) would be to make a big deal about trying to keep him from getting to a pillow to hit it. Be really really silly about it, like throwing yourself on top of the pillow and leaving a part of it out. And scooping your ds up "I'm going to carry you Far far Far away from the pillow!!!" but ending up running around in a big circle to set him back by the pillow "whew, now the pillow is safe!! Oh No!!! The pilloooooooowwww!!!!".

My 19 month old is fine with our cats, but we started working with her on using an open hand and petting gently when she started reaching for them at 4 months old. I don't think it'd take you 8 months to get your ds good with the dog, though.
post #9 of 27
I have a two year old. She is my fourth two year old so I feel as though I have quite a lot of experience here. We use timeouts. When we talk about any specific type of discipline and specific types of behaviors we have to remember what it means when a type of discipline "works". For us, consistency is key and I believe whatever type of discipline you use remembering to swiftly and consistently act is key. The results of discipline are not instantaneous. Good discipline is more about the child learning where the boundaries are and it takes many, many consistent examples of this for your child to learn where those boundaries are. I completely disagree with what the PP said about timeouts being for parents that are about to lose it. I think timeouts (or any type of discipline) should be used immediately at the infraction before you feel as though you are losing it. I don't believe in trying to reason with a two year old, at least not during a tantrum. It has proven a complete waste of time. If my daughter was hitting and kicking our dog the second I witnessed it or if I saw her recoil to hit or kick I would simply walk over, pick her up and take her to her room and shut the door. I don't say a word and she screams and kicks and hates it, but it is discipline and she isn't supposed to like it. The dog doesn't like being kicked and hit either. Maybe some very young two year olds may not connect the discipline to the infraction but all of mine by two years old were able to understand. I know this because a two year old will do something that they have already learned is not permitted while watching you to see if you will react the same way you did the day before. They like to test you.

I know that was long winded, but my point is not to expect that in days or weeks that the behavior will just stop. It is your job to prove yourself a consistent disciplinarian to your toddler, whichever type you choose to use. Doing so now and putting in the work early will make your life a lot easier when they get older and just KNOW where the boundaries are. I promise. Don't make the mistake of dismissing bad behavior as "all that can be expected" of a certain age. That can become a slippery slope. A two year old should be corrected when hitting or kicking an animal. It SHOULD be expected that they NOT do that. A five month old who can't control their motor functions and pulls a dog's ears is a better example of when not to expect too much. A two year certainly can learn to control themselves.
post #10 of 27
I believe that time-outs, despite their popularity, are not developmentally appropriate before age of 3.

I personally believe they are not really appropriate ever, but sometimes we do need a "cooling off" or a removal from a situation that is escalating out of control. I occasionally use something like a time out when I am getting too frustrated to deal with the situation effectively. I didn't do it in the same way at 2. However, at that age if my son was hitting/pushing etc and redirection/explanation didn't work, I would remove him from the situation. I tried not to be punitive about it (though at time I am sure I lost my cool).

I found "Becoming the Parent You Want to Be" very practical with my son who at 18m was hitting, shoving, biting, etc. (Now he is 5 and much more civilized!)

Here is a website with a collection of AP-oriented articles if you want some ideas:
http://www.naturalchild.org/articles..._guidance.html
I particularly like the article here that is pretty much summarizing what Alfie Kohn says in whole books on praise and rewards (not that you shouldn't read Alfie Kohn but its nice to get the main idea in a few pages!): http://www.naturalchild.org/robin_gr...ds_praise.html
post #11 of 27
Oh- and I want to add- that with a 2yo, just b/c they KNOW its wrong to hit doesn't mean that in the moment, they are able to control themselves (or think of a different way to handle whatever it is that is prompting them to hit). This was something that I struggled to accept for a while, since my son was extremely verbal.

But you know what- he DID learn to use words and verbal negotiation to get what he needs and wants. He also learned to verbalize his feelings (rather than acting out on them) and he did learn this all w/out use of time outs. Though, like I said, I certainly did use my judgment and remove him from a situation if I couldn't prevent these developmentally normal but socially inappropriate moments.

"reasoning" with a toddler doesn't work well, IMHO. Its more about preventing and redirecting inappropriate behavior, modeling appropriate behavior, and helping kids to make amends and solve problems.
post #12 of 27
It's not just you. There's a whole book out there looking at why time-outs don't work:

Unconditional Parenting
post #13 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by swd12422 View Post
So what do you do instead of timeout?
Wait a few years...
post #14 of 27
Here are my notes from "The Science of Parenting" about understanding and dealing with "misbehaviour" in toddlers:

Six main reasons for bad behaviour:

1. Tiredness & hunger
- Sleep deprivation is associated with imbalances in the autonomic nervous system – when this system is imbalanced, mood stabilizing mechanisms don’t work well, tipping the child into states of overarousal.
- Hunger – if blood sugar levels are too low, adrenal glands release stress hormones (cortisol and epinephrine) which are designed to raise blood sugar levels, but which may also cause anxiety, agitation, aggression, panic and confusion.
- Food additives can have mood-altering effects on a child’s brain and are common triggers for misbehaviour. Watch out for: FD&C Yellow No. 6, FD&C Red No. 3, Caramel colour, Benzoats and parabens, sulfites (including sulfur dioxide), Nitrates and sweeteners.

2. Undeveloped emotional brain
- In young children, the higher brain is still very undeveloped, which means they can’t inhibit their primitive impulses to lash out, bite, or run and climb things all the time.
- The glutamate system in the frontal lobes enables us to have clearly defined thoughts & intentions. This system only starts to develop in the first year of life, so infants and toddlers lack the sophistication required to be deliberately naughty or manipulative.

3. Psychological hungers
- All people have three psychological hungers: stimulation, recognition, structure (defined by Eric Berne).
- Stimulation hunger: the brain registers understimulation as stress, prompting people to DO something to increase their arousal state. Adults turn on the radio; infants head-bang or crib-rock; toddlers run around screaming.
- Recognition hunger: this makes a child seek attention. Children need lots of attention for healthy brain development, and will instinctively turn to bad behaviour if good behaviour isn’t doing the trick. We all have a fundamental psychological need to feel we are making an impact on the world.
- Structure hunger: in adults, lack of structure can lead to depression, anxiety, anger, loss of focus and meaning. Without structure and law, civilization would break down. Children need the structure of clear house rules and clear routines.

4. Needing help with a big feeling
- A big, painful feeling activates stress chemicals in a child’s brain, so ear-piercing outbursts are often a child’s way of relieving tension.
- If we help children deal with these feelings, instead of criticizing them for these lower-brain-triggered emotional outbursts, we can help their higher brain to develop the nerve pathways essential for natural regulation of feelings.

5. Picking up on your stress
- The right prefrontal part of a child’s brain can pick up emotional atmospheres in milliseconds. Children are deeply affected on a bodily and emotional level by stress or unhappiness in their family, while if you are calm, chances are your child will be as well. If there is tension in the home, your child may be unbearable.

6. You activate the wrong part of your child’s brain
- If you shout and issue endless commands, you could be activating the primitive RAGE and FEAR systems in the mammalian and reptilian parts of the brain. Lots of play, laughter and cuddles are likely to activate the brain’s PLAY and CARE systems, releasing calming opiods.

TANTRUMS

There are two types of tantrums, each needing a different response.
1. Distress tantrum: you need to move toward the child with comfort and solace.
2. “Little Nero” tantrum: you need to move away from your child.

It is essential during a tantrum that the parent stay calm, and think of rational and creative ways to manage the child’s feelings.

Tantrums are important
- Tantrums are key times for brain sculpting. The emotional regulation of a child’s feelings during storms of feeling enables him to establish essential brain pathways for managing stress and being assertive later in life.
- The “too good” child may have learned that expression of big feelings resulted in a frightening parental response, and that the price of parental love was total compliance. This child misses out on the vital brain sculpting that he gets from his parents when he expresses big feelings, meaning that when he faces frustrations later in life, he may respond with angry outbursts or struggle to be assertive.

Brain activity is different between the two types of tantrums
- Distress tantrums: your child can’t think or speak clearly because his upper brain functions are hijacked by primitive emotional systems – all he can do is discharge his emotions..
- “Little Nero” tantrums: Little Nero is using his upper lobes to produce behaviours that are calculated and deliberate, to get an intended result.

Distress Tantrums (DTs)
- DTs happen because essential brain pathways between a child’s higher brain and lower brain haven’t developed yet – these are necessary for managing big feelings.
- As a parent, your role is to soothe your child during these tantrums. If you get angry, he may stop crying, but this may mean that the FEAR system has been triggered, or he may have shifted to silent crying, which floods his brain with toxic levels of cortisol.
- When a child has a distress tantrum, you can see real anguish in his face – he needs comfort.

Handling DTs
- Use simple, calm actions, or provide a simple choice.
- Distraction – this activates the SEEKING system, triggering high levels of dopamine, which reduces stress and triggers interest and motivation.
- Hold your child tenderly – only if you are calm though. Your mature bodily arousal system will help calm her immature one. You must feel calm and in control in order to help bring her body and brain back into balance, and release calming oxytocin and opioids.
- Some children prefer that you sit next to them, talking gently, as this allows them freedom to move.
- Avoid using Time-Outs during a DT. You wouldn’t walk away from a friend in emotional distress, so this is certainly not appropriate for children, who have far fewer emotional resources than adults, and who need your help establishing effective stress-regulating systems in the brain.
- Avoid putting a child in a room on his own. Although this may stop vocal crying, he may continue to cry internally – this silent crying is a worrisome sign that the child has lost faith that help will come, and in some people, this loss of faith can stay for life.
- Remind yourself that a child’s stress is genuine. A two-year old who screams because his toy was snatched is reacting to pain – a sense of loss activates the pain centers in the brain, causing agonizing opioid withdrawal.
- If DTs are repeatedly punished, the child switches off feelings of hurt because they are no longer safe to have – which has negative impacts on managing feelings in adulthood.

- It is very common for a child to have nightmares after they have a DT during the day.

Little Nero Tantrums (LNTs)
- A child having a LNT doesn’t experience or show the anguish, desperation or panic that characterizes the DT, and doesn’t have stress chemicals flooding his brain and body.
- There is usually an absence of tears, and the child is able to articulate his demands and to argue when you say “no”.

- A LNT is about a child trying to get what he wants by bullying his parents into submission.
- If you reward frequent LNTs, you are in danger of setting up a trigger-happy RAGE system in your child’s brain. This is because the mere experience of rage without capacity for reasoned thinking can result in rage becoming a part of your child’s personality.
- Some children whos LNTs are not handled well grow into power-seeking bullies. These people are developmentally arrested – Little Nero two-year-olds in adult bodies – and bring misery to the people around them.
- If you ignore a LNT, you are helping your child to develop important social skills, but it is essential that you do not humiliate the child. Reward the child with your attention as soon as his behaviour improves.

Handling LNTs
- Do not provide an audience – if you are absolutely sure your child is not having a DT, simply walk out of the room. It’s no fun if no one’s watching, so the LNT will stop.
- Don’t try to reason, argue or persuade – attention and words reward negative behaviours, taking your one step farther toward setting up a hot temper as a personality trait.
- Don’t “kiss it better” – this teaches that you reward rage with love.
- Do not negotiate – this is also rewarding controlling behaviour. If a child discovers that rage works well in manipulating parents, he may continue to use it in adulthood.
- Give clear, firm “nos”, and try to manage your own rage.
- Deal firmly with your child’s commands. Give a clear, firm message about commands being unacceptable as a way of getting what you want. If your child is screaming for a cookie, try saying “I’ll be happy to talk about what you would like when your voice is as quiet as mine”. The go about your business until your child is calmer and says “please”.
- Give info on social charm (works better on an older child, whose higher brain function is more developed).
- Use humour and play when appropriate. This can deflate their power bubble, and give the message that they will not win in a “power over” transaction. Try something like “You really want to boss me around don’t you? Let’s do it together to this can of peas – Peas, get me that cookie now!” Your child will look at you like you’re crazy, but his serves to upstage him, stop him in his tracks, move you both toward humour and play, mirror him back to himself, and show him you do not take his bullying seriously.
- Use Time Outs only as a last resort – only appropriate for hurting (biting, hitting, kicking) particularly over the age of five. Take him to the time out room, and explain why he is being put in time out.
- Distinguish between an LNT and a DT. Sometimes this can be difficult because one can run into the other. i.e. You say no to a LN command – this “no” could cause your child grief, sending him into a grief reaction. If you feel his grief is genuine, he will need help with his feelings. The message is “I won’t respond to commands, but I will help if you are in pain”.
post #15 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by xelakann View Post
Time outs work here, but we don't do them often. We'll give his toys, markers, crayons etc time outs first. I watched a few episodes of Supernanny and found that they way she handles timeouts work for us. So when he does have them they are effective... but he's maybe getting them once a week... and he is not by any means an easy toddler.
TIme outs for toys? I'm curious. My husband and I are feeling the same way about time outs. That they don't work. They do seem to have worked in the way of "please don't do that or you'll get a time out" but there are things he does DAILY like pouring the cat food out that we just can't get him to stop doing. We started trying to have conversations with him instead of time outs because that's what they do at the preschool he'll be going to in September (hopefully). Not sure how this works. Any advice?? We've been very consistent with time outs. And I also feel sometimes that it's not fair to him or nice to do to him especially when he gets very upset and cries through the whole thing.

please help!! this is really tearing our family apart and stressing us all out big time!!!

Greta
post #16 of 27
We do timeouts out in situations where he is angry and frustrated and acting inappropriately as a result. They stand in the corner and get ahold of themselves so they can behave appropriately. At 2 both of my kids were known to occasionally put themselves in time out. They would get frustrated and go stand in the corner and throw there tantrum. I let them.

I think they do work but you need to send the message that this is something they need to do to get control of themselves.
post #17 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by greeba View Post
TIme outs for toys? I'm curious. My husband and I are feeling the same way about time outs. That they don't work. They do seem to have worked in the way of "please don't do that or you'll get a time out" but there are things he does DAILY like pouring the cat food out that we just can't get him to stop doing. We started trying to have conversations with him instead of time outs because that's what they do at the preschool he'll be going to in September (hopefully). Not sure how this works. Any advice?? We've been very consistent with time outs. And I also feel sometimes that it's not fair to him or nice to do to him especially when he gets very upset and cries through the whole thing.

please help!! this is really tearing our family apart and stressing us all out big time!!!

Greta
This has been a problem for us too, we have a cat and a dog. Personally, I consider this a safety issue, because we want to to teach DS that you don't mess with an animal and their food. When I see DS heading to the pet's food, I stop him, get down to his level, and tell him it's not ok to touch the pet's food and give him a TO warning. When we first started TOs, he did it anyway, and then cried while in TO. Now, he still sometimes goes for the food, but not everyday and I usually just have to say his name and he stops. It's so hard to see him so upset while in TO, but I know DS was only upset because he was in trouble and not getting his way. TOs have worked for us. When we first started using them, DS was in TO once or twice a day, now, maybe once or twice a week.
post #18 of 27
Thanks for the Unconditional Parenting link! Some very interesting stuff about schools on there too. I have to listen to my inner voice more. I agree about so much that he's saying, and he'll be in our area NEXT WEEK giving a lecture. Hoping to see him!

THANK YOU

Greta
post #19 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by starlein26 View Post
Wait a few years...
LOL!!! I bet if I look at all my questions I've posted here and in LWAB, this is the answer to all of them! I don't know why I just can't seem to remember the mantra "this too shall pass!"

I guess I do know it, but wasn't sure if we need to continue TOs to be consistent, or do something else instead.

Looks like a mix of opinions and experiences here, and I'm so grateful for that. Keep 'em coming!

Dreamy - I haven't read your entire post yet, but it looks like excellent info and I'm going to have DH read this thread so he can see what I'm talking about.

We both need to stop yelling, and I think we may be fueling the bad behavior in some ways.

FTR, for PPs who asked, I wasn't clear: He is not hitting out of anger. For a 2-year-old, he has VERY few tantrums. (Does that mean they'll come when he's 3 instead???) He hits or throws toys at our faces when we're playing. I picked him up this morning to get a good morning kiss, and got smacked in the face. I usually ask, but even then, sometimes he'll come over like he's going to kiss me and then smacks instead.
post #20 of 27
We do time outs. And they work for us, most of the time. Granted, we're also in a very small, very conservative community where most people spank their children for discipline. So we're considered rebels for not spanking. My husband is much more free with giving time outs than I am (it's a good thing I'm the one home all day!)

Our son is three, and a very intense, sensitive child. If he's having a hard day, he still asks to be rocked for five or ten minutes (it used to be for an hour or so, when he was a young toddler; and as an infant, sometimes that's the only way he was content all day. I got a lot of books read on "rocking days"!) I try not to give time outs as much as possible, but when we do, he is required to sit down. That's it. No standing in a corner, going to his room, etc. It's just a time for him to collect himself/take a step back. I know the general rule is "one minute for every year of age", but his time outs usually last less than a minute. Then I ask him why he had a time out, and he tells me. (When he was younger, we would help him answer this so he understood what we were asking.) Then we come up with ideas for ways to handle the situation better the next time.

Sometimes he screams the entire time out. Those are usually longer ones, since he's angry. When his screams go from anger to just upset, then we talk, and I rock him afterwards, because most of the time, he just really needed to be rocked in the first place and didn't express it in an appropriate manner. It's gotten much harder now, since little sister, who is six months, does NOT like to sit and rock. But she also does not like to not be held. So it's a delicate balance that, admittedly, I don't often get right right now. But things will change, and we just do the best we can. There were days (especially when I was pregnant and so very sick) that both of us were having very rough days, and he would end up in a time out several times a day. For the same thing. Just like the previous day. And it frustrated me to no end. But I was consistent, he continued to grow, and we worked through the rough patches. Now, he gets a time out maybe once or twice a week from me (usually more on the weekends when Daddy is home, but if I'm diligent, I can keep the two from butting heads too much!)


Do I like giving him time outs? Nope. I avoid them as much as I can. But we've found that they work for our son. It's a quick thing to stop him in his tracks and creates a teachable moment when we can show a better way to handle what he would consider a difficult situation. And, I love the advice from another poster to just wait a few years. Just remember this time when you're dealing with teenagers, and you'll miss the "simpler" problems of toddlerhood!
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