HELP! 5 month old and not sleeping/Temper

[mrscompgeek]

This is actually 2 questions-
First my 5 month old DD is still up 3 times or more a night. She goes to bed at 9 or so and is back up at 11, 12 and 3. She doesnt eat at the first waking though, she just wakes up, cries til i get her then falls back asleep in my arms.
We dont co-sleep, not that Im against it, Its just the DD is such a wild sleeper, she kicks and moves constantly that I get NO sleep when she sleeps with me. So she is in her own crib. I am breastfeeding so I know breastfed babies alot of times will wake more then formula fed. Any ideas why she is waking up? Im totally against CIO but im honestly thinking of putting the rails all the way up on her crib tonight and letting her go for a few minutes when she wakes up the first time to see if maybe she is just waking up out of habit? We have been giving her cereal and I also have tried giving her mashed fruit before bed. Nothing seems to make much difference.
Second question is she has developed SUCH a temper. And I know its not that shes hungry or hurt or anything, its a mad scream. In the past week she has developed it. If she is laying on the floor playing and is done and I let her there for a minute or so longer like if im doing something and have to finish she will scream at the top of her lungs but then when I pick her up she is instantly fine. And I know she is still young and should want her mom and to be held and Im ok with that, I just am afraid Im starting a bad habit. And last night in the middle of the night I got her up from the crib and changed her diaper when she woke up and she screamed again while i was changing her then as soon as I was done and picked her up she was fine.
How do you let the baby know thats not ok? We have tried a simple "no" and she just screams louder. We have also tried a gentle pat on her diaper booty and that goes unnoticed. (NOT a spanking, a pat). Any suggestions? We have a tiny house (900q feet) and we are having house guest in a week and I have to find a way so she doesnt scream in the middle of the night with diaper changes. btw- she is fine with diaper changes in the daytime, doesnt even cry.

[Path2Felicity]

Are our daughters friends?

Because we are dealing with the same sleep issue and my DD is roughly your DD's age.

As far as sleep goes, I think it's normal for them to wake up a couple of times at night at this point. We also put DD down at 9 and usually by 10 she is up crying, but it's not a cry of hunger. I usually go to the room and pat her back or gently rock her while lying down- and that should do the trick. Sometimes it doesn't, and we just have to rock her a little, but she does go down pretty fast. Our pediatrician told us something interesting- she asked if I nurse DD down to sleep which I do... and then she said that if DD goes through a sleep cycle and sees that I'm not there after falling asleep while nursing, it can be traumatic for her, which is why she wakes up screaming. So, I've tried now just nursing her down and just rocking her instead of letting her fall asleep at my breast. It's helped a little but not much.

As far as the screaming and wanting to be held by you, I think that's normal behavior. She is only 5 months old... I don't think you are starting any bad habits or anything. She still needs you. Plus, we don't know what's going on with them right now... for example, she may be cutting teeth, and that could hurt her but then when you hold her, she is better able to cope with it. I bring that up because I think my DD is teething

[atlantafemme]

I would say everything your baby is doing is normal. And, the screaming thing is just her exploring her communication options. I don't think "No" or any kind of discipline correction has any effect at this age. I also don't believe in physical correction at all whether it's a pat, spank, or worse. Even if it's gentle, why would you expect that to work? B/c it surprises her? When my LO screams, I hug him, bounce him, grab a paci, blow in his face (he likes the wind), and anything else I can think of to interrupt and redirect his attention.

I know it can be a challenge to deal with baby noises with guests and strangers but your visitor knows you have a baby and should be understanding.

[cristeen]

All of that sounds like completely normal behavior. You're not spoiling her, you're not teaching her bad habits. She's still at an age where she NEEDS you. And honestly, how do you expect her to express her displeasure right now? She only has one way of doing it - crying. Until she's able to talk (or sign), expecting anything else is a little silly. She's not being bratty, she's not being a princess - she's being a baby and communicating the only way babies can.

As for the house guests - give em ear plugs? Have you tried other diapering solutions to try to make it through the night without changing? (we still change at least once a night - twice last night, so it's not always easy/possible) Honestly, if I were planning on staying the night in a house with a small babe, I wouldn't be surprised to hear crying in the middle of the night. I would just warn them and go about your business.

Oh, and mashed fruit before bed is just liable to make matters worse - it's just sugar, and it's not going to keep her satisfied like a nice meal of BM would, with all it's lovely fats. But regardless, waking that many times a night is normal. My guy is 6 mos old and he was up 3 times last night.

You say you have her in a crib - is the crib in your room or in the nursery? With my little guy, even if he's asleep in his stroller on the other side of the room, I hear him wake up most of the time before he cries. If he were in the other room, I wouldn't. Just something else to consider.

[tzs]

Originally Posted by atlantafemme

I would say everything your baby is doing is normal. And, the screaming thing is just her exploring her communication options. I don't think "No" or any kind of discipline correction has any effect at this age. I also don't believe in physical correction at all whether it's a pat, spank, or worse. Even if it's gentle, why would you expect that to work? B/c it surprises her? When my LO screams, I hug him, bounce him, grab a paci, blow in his face (he likes the wind), and anything else I can think of to interrupt and redirect his attention.

I know it can be a challenge to deal with baby noises with guests and strangers but your visitor knows you have a baby and should be understanding.

yeah that!

i've got a 6mo and lately all development stuff has been channeled into the vocal arena. first it was screams, then sticking out the tongue in-out-in-out, then raspberies, now it's cute kissing noises. they're really just finding their "voices" and seeing how you react. with the screaming i usually just say something like, "wow that's loouuuuuddd. let's whisper." and then we crack ourselves up while mommy whsipers silly things to her.

we're guests ourselves alot and i know it can be stressful. i get almost a little "competative" about keeping the noise to a minimum. you should see me jolt out of bed when she wakes at night. you want her to seem like a "good" baby to others. but you just have to let it go or you drive yourself crazy.

[sunshynbaby]

The only thing you are teaching her when you pick her up when she cries is that she has a loving parent who she can depend on to respond to her needs. That makes her feel secure, which is a GOOD thing! I envy your three hour stretches of sleep. I rarely get that with my seven month old. Guests should expect noise from a baby, but try moving her crib in your room by the bed if it isn't there already. That might eliminate her need to cry altogether because you will here her stir and wake up.

I also wonder if her first waking is due to a tummy ache from all the solids she eats before bed... Just something to think about.

[mrscompgeek]

Originally Posted by Path2Felicity

As far as sleep goes, I think it's normal for them to wake up a couple of times at night at this point. We also put DD down at 9 and usually by 10 she is up crying, but it's not a cry of hunger. I usually go to the room and pat her back or gently rock her while lying down- and that should do the trick. Sometimes it doesn't, and we just have to rock her a little, but she does go down pretty fast. Our pediatrician told us something interesting- she asked if I nurse DD down to sleep which I do... and then she said that if DD goes through a sleep cycle and sees that I'm not there after falling asleep while nursing, it can be traumatic for her, which is why she wakes up screaming. So, I've tried now just nursing her down and just rocking her instead of letting her fall asleep at my breast. It's helped a little but not much.

As far as the screaming and wanting to be held by you, I think that's normal behavior. She is only 5 months old... I don't think you are starting any bad habits or anything. She still needs you. Plus, we don't know what's going on with them right now... for example, she may be cutting teeth, and that could hurt her but then when you hold her, she is better able to cope with it. I bring that up because I think my DD is teething

I dont nurse her to sleep, she has to burp or she gets tummy ache so we never nurse to sleep.
And she is teething but thats not the full cause. I know her hurting cry and the screams last night was not a hurt cry, it was a mad cry.

Originally Posted by atlantafemme

I would say everything your baby is doing is normal. And, the screaming thing is just her exploring her communication options. I don't think "No" or any kind of discipline correction has any effect at this age. I also don't believe in physical correction at all whether it's a pat, spank, or worse. Even if it's gentle, why would you expect that to work? B/c it surprises her? When my LO screams, I hug him, bounce him, grab a paci, blow in his face (he likes the wind), and anything else I can think of to interrupt and redirect his attention.

I know it can be a challenge to deal with baby noises with guests and strangers but your visitor knows you have a baby and should be understanding.

We have tried no discipline and exactly what you said but when its this mad cry because we take something away or dont pick her up right at the moment she wants to be then she starts grabbing and pinching me. And i want her to know its NOT ok to pinch me.

Originally Posted by cristeen

All of that sounds like completely normal behavior. You're not spoiling her, you're not teaching her bad habits. She's still at an age where she NEEDS you. And honestly, how do you expect her to express her displeasure right now? She only has one way of doing it - crying. Until she's able to talk (or sign), expecting anything else is a little silly. She's not being bratty, she's not being a princess - she's being a baby and communicating the only way babies can.

Oh, and mashed fruit before bed is just liable to make matters worse - it's just sugar, and it's not going to keep her satisfied like a nice meal of BM would, with all it's lovely fats. But regardless, waking that many times a night is normal. My guy is 6 mos old and he was up 3 times last night.

You say you have her in a crib - is the crib in your room or in the nursery? With my little guy, even if he's asleep in his stroller on the other side of the room, I hear him wake up most of the time before he cries. If he were in the other room, I wouldn't. Just something else to consider.

She doesnt always get fruit, sometimes its potatoes, veggies....
And her crib is in the nursery but its 5 feet from my bed..like i said its a small house we can hear anything in any room.
Shes not a typical baby that wimpers before crying when she wakes up...its fullout scream from the start.

Originally Posted by sunshynbaby

The only thing you are teaching her when you pick her up when she cries is that she has a loving parent who she can depend on to respond to her needs. That makes her feel secure, which is a GOOD thing! I envy your three hour stretches of sleep. I rarely get that with my seven month old. Guests should expect noise from a baby, but try moving her crib in your room by the bed if it isn't there already. That might eliminate her need to cry altogether because you will here her stir and wake up.

I also wonder if her first waking is due to a tummy ache from all the solids she eats before bed... Just something to think about.

Well a few times it has been tummy ache but not every night. We tried giving her solids at supper (4 hours before bed) to see if it was the solids waking her up and she woke up that night 1 hour after going to bed.

Thanks for the confirmation that its normal! I dont mind getting up with her at night when she wants to eat but its the waking up for no apparant reason that gets me.

[mrscompgeek]

Update from us-
Yesterday I decided to try to get her on a sleep schedule and see if it helped. She took a nap from 9-11 yesterday morning, then another nap from 1-3 in the afternoon. Then I kept her up until 8pm. She slept from 8-1, ate went back to sleep and slept 1:30-3:30, ate again and slept from 4-almost 6!! Still not ideal but MUCH better then up every hour or so. I do think that today Im going to try to give her 2 morning naps and a later afternoon nap. She was grumpy yesterday evening and I would like to keep her up til 9 at night. So far today she had a nap from 8-9:30 and then Im going to try to get her down around 11 or 12 for a hour or so. Then maybe try to hold off her afternoon nap til 2 so she is awake a bit later tonight. We will see how it goes today.
Yesterday was a bit rough but I know that after a few days of getting this schedule done she will be used to it and hopefully it will be easier.
I was really proud of her though, she was up from 3-8 yesterday evening so 5 hours and she really wasnt too bad. She grumped a bit but I just kept her entertained and she really did well considering!!
I think she is a bit young for just 2 naps a day which is why Im adding a 3rd in today and see if it helps. Its all trial and error! Lol

[tzs]

good naps really do help. glad to hear it's working for you.

we do 1 morning nap, one afternoon nap, and one later afternoon nap and then to bed at 9 or if she starts getting tired (she'll do this really high pitched scream.) this is based on what i read in one of those sleep books.

the first nap to drop is the late afternoon one but at 6 months and with our later bedtime we still need it.

[LadyCatherine185]

Your baby's "behavior" is completely normal. Babies cry to have their needs met. They need to be held. Your baby is still so so young. I suggest getting some new perspectives on how you view babies and their cries. She isn't trying to manipulate you, she doesn't have a temper. Trying to discipline a 5 month old is unnessecary. Patting on the bottom is unacceptable. She will not understand what "no" means until closer to 12-18 months old +.

As for the night waking, 3 times a night at 5 months old is not only normal, but actually pretty good. My 19 month old still wakes much more than that.

Maybe try reading Dr. Sear's "The Baby Book" for some ideas.

[sewaneecook]

It is completely wrong of our culture to expect a baby to sleep on an adult schedule or to wake up very little during the night. I would be more concerned by a baby who DIDN'T wake up at that age. Heavier sleeping babies are more at risk for SIDS (a thought that helps when my LO wakes up a lot during the night).

Everything you describe about your DD is very typical and age appropriate. Having a baby means less sleep, it means hearing screaming if you are the houseguest of a family with a baby, it means life will never be the same as it was before having a baby.

[sosurreal09]

Originally Posted by mrscompgeek

I dont nurse her to sleep, she has to burp or she gets tummy ache so we never nurse to sleep.
And she is teething but thats not the full cause. I know her hurting cry and the screams last night was not a hurt cry, it was a mad cry.


We have tried no discipline and exactly what you said but when its this mad cry because we take something away or dont pick her up right at the moment she wants to be then she starts grabbing and pinching me. And i want her to know its NOT ok to pinch me.


She doesnt always get fruit, sometimes its potatoes, veggies....
And her crib is in the nursery but its 5 feet from my bed..like i said its a small house we can hear anything in any room.
Shes not a typical baby that wimpers before crying when she wakes up...its fullout scream from the start.


Well a few times it has been tummy ache but not every night. We tried giving her solids at supper (4 hours before bed) to see if it was the solids waking her up and she woke up that night 1 hour after going to bed.

Thanks for the confirmation that its normal! I dont mind getting up with her at night when she wants to eat but its the waking up for no apparant reason that gets me.

ok first of all a 5 m/o absolutely does not know shes pinching you!

secondly my DD is 6 m/o and still waking 2x a night easy sometimes more and shes an idependent sleeper who isnt b/f to sleep too.
im going to suggest babywhisper.com so you can get on a routine with her b/c it sounds like the first waking and rough sleeping is her being overtired.

babies have NWs al the time anyways no matter the age! see if she can settle herself but if she needs you you need to help her.

[mrscompgeek]

Originally Posted by LadyCatherine185

Your baby's "behavior" is completely normal. Babies cry to have their needs met. They need to be held. Your baby is still so so young. I suggest getting some new perspectives on how you view babies and their cries. She isn't trying to manipulate you, she doesn't have a temper. Trying to discipline a 5 month old is unnessecary. Patting on the bottom is unacceptable. She will not understand what "no" means until closer to 12-18 months old +.

As for the night waking, 3 times a night at 5 months old is not only normal, but actually pretty good. My 19 month old still wakes much more than that.

Maybe try reading Dr. Sear's "The Baby Book" for some ideas.

Im not saying that she is trying to manipulate me. Im saying that sometimes she crys and I KNOW that she is ok and she just wants to be held. Sometimes I just cant get to her at the moment. Trust me , my baby gets held 80% of the day around here.
second- did you ever think maybe your 19 month old wakes up so often yet out of habit? Not trying to sound mean or condescending or anything, just curious if you had thought of that?

Originally Posted by sewaneecook

It is completely wrong of our culture to expect a baby to sleep on an adult schedule or to wake up very little during the night. I would be more concerned by a baby who DIDN'T wake up at that age. Heavier sleeping babies are more at risk for SIDS (a thought that helps when my LO wakes up a lot during the night).

Everything you describe about your DD is very typical and age appropriate. Having a baby means less sleep, it means hearing screaming if you are the houseguest of a family with a baby, it means life will never be the same as it was before having a baby.

I dont expect her to sleep on a adult schedule and im ok with her waking up to eat, what I was worried about is why she was up so often and didnt eat, but would fall right back asleep in my arms when I would pick her up.I expect her to wake up a few times to eat but the waking up just to wake up was getting crazy when I was up EVERY hour.

Originally Posted by anielasmommy09

ok first of all a 5 m/o absolutely does not know shes pinching you!

secondly my DD is 6 m/o and still waking 2x a night easy sometimes more and shes an idependent sleeper who isnt b/f to sleep too.
im going to suggest babywhisper.com so you can get on a routine with her b/c it sounds like the first waking and rough sleeping is her being overtired.

babies have NWs al the time anyways no matter the age! see if she can settle herself but if she needs you you need to help her.

Oh I KNOW she doesnt know she is pinching me, I just dont want her to do it. Its mean and hurtful and I wanted to find a way of teaching her that its not nice. My mom babysits a little boy thats 2 and he started pinching his mom when he was little when he was angry or crying and she let him do it, which is fine, BUT now at 2 years old he is still pinching and pinches the other little boy my mom watches. I just dont want her to keep doing it and as she gets older think its ok to do it.

2ND- did you read my last post?? Do you think it still sounds like she is overtired? Just curious if you thought so. My LLL leader said that it could be she is overtired or if could be that she is not tired enough at night. She slept much better last night after I kept her awake in the evening.

[Friendlee]

Well, you know MY situation at night, so you know I can empathize. *yawn* But, I have to tell you that I am SO jealous of Ki's 2 hour naps!!! We really should get together for coffee soon, so she can teach Lu how to sleep for 2 hours. When you walk in the coffee shop, I'll be the one in the corner sleeping, with the infant poking and jabbing at my eyballs.

[LadyCatherine185]

My 19 still wakes wakes up a lot because he is wired to do so. He is a high-needs kid, most of them wake frequently at night for years. It may not be "normal" for all babies, but it is normal for him. We are working on transitioning him to his own bed and nightweaning soon, as I am newly pregnant, and DH will take over nighttime with DS. I am 24 years old and have never slept through the night. I don't wake out of habit, I just wake up because that is how my body is wired.

But at 5 months old, their sleep patterns are still very immature (and sleep progression is not linear, there will be progressions and regressions for many reasons) and they will wake often, hungry or not. Teething, growth spurts, developmental milestones, etc can affect their sleep.

You say she cries and you "know" she is ok.. How do you know that? Her only way of communicating to you is through crying. If she needs to be held, she will cry. And if she stops crying when you pick her up, you are meeting her need. That is a GOOD thing!

[mrscompgeek]

Originally Posted by Friendlee

Well, you know MY situation at night, so you know I can empathize. *yawn* But, I have to tell you that I am SO jealous of Ki's 2 hour naps!!! We really should get together for coffee soon, so she can teach Lu how to sleep for 2 hours. When you walk in the coffee shop, I'll be the one in the corner sleeping, with the infant poking and jabbing at my eyballs.

Yes we do!! When you coming to town??
I would recommend trying to keep her up from like 4 in the afternoon til 8 or 9 and see if she doesnt sleep better. Honestly Ki slept the best she has in a MONTH last night and I had kept her up. so far so good today so If I can keep her up til 8 or so tonight we will see if last night was a fluke or if she just needs to stay up in the evenings. Try it, the worst that can happen is she not sleep again that night but when you are at the point we are at its not getting any better so why not try something if it *might* work!
Also so far she had a 1 hour nap this morning and 2- 20 minute naps over lunch cause I was grocery shopping and then a 1 hour nap this afternoon. She is happier now then she has been all week! Maybe she just doesnt require as much sleep as I was making her get?? Then again she is a baby so you never know, maybe she is just having a good day?

[mrscompgeek]

Originally Posted by LadyCatherine185

My 19 still wakes wakes up a lot because he is wired to do so. He is a high-needs kid, most of them wake frequently at night for years. It may not be "normal" for all babies, but it is normal for him. We are working on transitioning him to his own bed and nightweaning soon, as I am newly pregnant, and DH will take over nighttime with DS. I am 24 years old and have never slept through the night. I don't wake out of habit, I just wake up because that is how my body is wired.

But at 5 months old, their sleep patterns are still very immature (and sleep progression is not linear, there will be progressions and regressions for many reasons) and they will wake often, hungry or not. Teething, growth spurts, developmental milestones, etc can affect their sleep.

You say she cries and you "know" she is ok.. How do you know that? Her only way of communicating to you is through crying. If she needs to be held, she will cry. And if she stops crying when you pick her up, you are meeting her need. That is a GOOD thing!

I hope you didnt think I was being rude when I asked that about your son. I was hoping it didnt come across that way! I just honestly wondered if you had thought about that or if you had already tried to see if he was just waking out of habit.
Interesting. I have slept all night since I was 1 month old, I NEVER wake up during the night (well now of course I do! Lol) but then DH is up 3 and 4 times a night (usually just to go to the bathroom though).

I cant really answer the 2nd question, lol. You know how a mother sometimes just knows what a cry means? Honestly Kianna has a different cry for different things. My husband thinks im nuts but I honestly can tell a difference. She has a hungry cry, tired cry, angry/upset cry, belly ache cry, teething cry. . The reason I said I know she was ok and just wanted me to get her NOW was because it was her upset cry.
And just so you all dont think Im neglecting my baby, i do pick her up and carry her 95% of the time when she cries like that. Its just occasionally I just cant get her at the moment. (I dont like to hold her while cooking or by the stove for fear of burning her cause she grabs for EVERYTHING. Or its still chilly here some and I have to go in and out to let our dogs out on their chains a few times a day so I dont like to carry her with me on the porch to chain them up.)

[LadyCatherine185]

Originally Posted by mrscompgeek

I cant really answer the 2nd question, lol. You know how a mother sometimes just knows what a cry means? Honestly Kianna has a different cry for different things. My husband thinks im nuts but I honestly can tell a difference. She has a hungry cry, tired cry, angry/upset cry, belly ache cry, teething cry. . The reason I said I know she was ok and just wanted me to get her NOW was because it was her upset cry.
And just so you all dont think Im neglecting my baby, i do pick her up and carry her 95% of the time when she cries like that. Its just occasionally I just cant get her at the moment. (I dont like to hold her while cooking or by the stove for fear of burning her cause she grabs for EVERYTHING. Or its still chilly here some and I have to go in and out to let our dogs out on their chains a few times a day so I dont like to carry her with me on the porch to chain them up.)

Liam had different cries for different things too. Totally normal, and good!, that you can recognize her different cries. Just know that it is normal for her to want to be held all the time, even if nothing is "wrong." But crying for a minute while you do something (and you can't hold her) real quick isn't going to damage her or anything. Have you tried babywearing? It can make the holding easier and you can get things done.

[mrscompgeek]

Originally Posted by LadyCatherine185

Liam had different cries for different things too. Totally normal, and good!, that you can recognize her different cries. Just know that it is normal for her to want to be held all the time, even if nothing is "wrong." But crying for a minute while you do something (and you can't hold her) real quick isn't going to damage her or anything. Have you tried babywearing? It can make the holding easier and you can get things done.

YES, I do babywear. I have 4 different carriers,lol. I do wear her but like i said some of the time I dont want her that close like when I cook cause she pulls the pans or when I have to step outside cause its a bit chilly yet.

[Pandme]

My 3 year old woke like crazy from 4 months to about 19 months. There was no habit, He started sleeping through at 19 months, nightweaned himself and stopped nursing to sleep by himself. And was sleeping through every night by 20-21 months.

But at 5 months? 3 times was a GOOD night.

My daughter currently wakes about 4-5 times a night. We cosleep, I deal. She's 6 months old.

Babies wake up at night. Some do a lot, some are better than others. But there is nothing wrong and nothing that needs to be fixed. I barely remember my son as a baby and he doesn't remember any "habits" from that time either.