I'm floored

[DirtRoadMama]

So... I spent the past two days crying my eyes out. I hadn't heard from him at all. Then, last night, the texts start up. To make a REALLY long session of texts short, it started out nice, got weird, got angry, and I said some things I've really been wanting to say. Namely, that he needs to stop blaming everyone else for the decisions he makes, he needs to take responsibility for his own life, he needs to stand on his own two feet, he needs to get rid of the loser friends who are telling him to not even try to get his family back, and he just needs to man up and be the man I fell in love with.

That seriously changed his tone, but I was done, and it was after midnight, so I didn't respond to any more texts and I didn't answer the phone when he called.

He called twice this morning. I answered the second call... and... he's moved back to town (he had been about 2 hours away staying with a guy he knows who I hate). He said he couldn't try to save his family if he was on the road, so he was coming back and he is going to do everything he can. He said it's going to take a long time for him to get better. He said that, while he is working on himself, instead of working on picking up our relationship, he wants us to try to rebuild our friendship. He said he wants us to be ready to work on our relationship after he has addressed all of his problems.

I'm floored. I asked him if it was safe for my heart to put my hope back out there. He said that it wasn't safe, because one can't predict the future, but he is going to try.

I want to be cautiously optimistic. This is what I've been hoping for, and did not think would happen. I know full well that he could get into counseling, and it not help. I know he could refuse to change. I know so many things could go wrong. But I can't help but think that this is a much better sign than him giving up and moving away.

Thoughts? Advice? Any BTDT?

[Annie Mac]

OK, so first a disclaimer: I have no idea about your situation. This is the first post I've read about it, but I think I have the basic summary version, but no idea why your partner left in the first place, or the personal problems he's working on. It doesn't really matter though. There were a couple red flags for me in the story you just told: first, when you asked him if your heart was safe and he responded ambivalently. Yes, it's true no one knows what the future holds, but in my experience, believe what people say about themselves.

Rather than saying he doesn't hold a crystal ball, he *could* have said he's committed to the process, whatever it may entail, that he'll do everything he can to make it work with you. But that's not what he said.

It also sounds like he's hedging his bets. He wants to work on the friendship while working on himself. To me, that translates into: "wait for me while I figure out what I want. And I don't even know what I want. Maybe this. Maybe not. Who knows the future?"

Again, just an opinion from someone with limited information on the situation, but a wholly objective one, in any case Hope it works out for you.

[*MamaJen*]

I'm going to be the voice of doom and gloom.
Remember the cycle of abuse. I can't say that enough times. Remember the cycle of abuse.
Guys like you've described do. not. change. They just don't. They enter the honeymoon stage of the cycle of abuse, but actual fundamental change? No. Doesn't happen. Maybe one in a thousand.
I've spent a lot of time on the surviving abuse forum and really listening to stories like this one, trying to process what I went through in my own abusive relationship. Invariably, like clockwork, after the woman leaves the abusive relationship, there's a post exactly like this one. He's promising to change. He says all the right things, like we can be just friends while I fix myself. It's almost uncanny that he seems to know what he needs to say to get one more chance. He takes responsibility for his actions, he apologizes, he promises to go to therapy. It's a miracle. He really wants to get better. You take him back, probably quicker than you wanted to. And then, again like clockwork, the abuse starts right back up again, only this time it's even more severe, because you have implicitly told him that it is okay if he acts abusively, because as long as he apologizes nicely, you will take him back.
I'm sorry. I know you want it to be real change, but he's just reading off the script. This is what abusive guys do. You did the hard work of getting out -- please don't put yourself back in jeopardy. This is a guy who thought it was okay to break into your house. He is not going to respect any boundaries.
Hopefully a few of the women who have left and returned to abusive relationships can chime in. But please, really really really understand the dynamic of the cycle of abuse. That's what is happening here.
(Also, since he may be borderline -- read up on the tactic known as the "hoover")
http://www.bpd411.org/hoover.html

[chaoticzenmom]

It sounds like he essentially told you that he wants you to put yourself on hold while he does his selfish thing for awhile. The ONLY way you'll ever have any chance with him (or any other relationship) is to start putting yourself (and child/ren) first. Sometimes, I wish I could put my kids/responsibilities in a closet to be taken out whenever I was bored and wanted to play with them. Then, whenever I was tired of them, I could just put them there and do whatever I want to do. Wouldn't that be nice? Yeah, it doesn't work like that. I have to work hard doing the responsible things and then I get to enjoy them.

If you were to stop texting and calliing him, he'd start to try to control you again. He'd try to play mind games with you. The longer you ignored it, the more pathetic the mind games would get. If you watched all of this like an observer, not a participant, you'd see it. Then, you'd have your power back...and probably be done with him.

Get yourself a social network. Build it up, work hard for it, take classes, join book clubs/start them, Start a ladies night out, date, etc. Don't be put in a closet...it's dark in there.

Also, I'm guessing that there's another reason he's back in town...did he lose his job? Did his friend get tired of him and kick him out? Is there another woman in town that he's seeing? It doesn't sound like he's the kind of guy who's going to do anything to actually work on being responsible.

[DirtRoadMama]

Ok, seriously, thank you for not jumping on the happy-happy-joy-joy wagon. Although it would be nice, it's not what I need.

I totally agree that he could do nothing, he could not start counseling, he could not make any progress in healing himself. Because of that, I am not going to change my mind about him coming home. He cannot come back until he has gotten a lot of serious help. Of course I am going to wait and see what happens, and I know that his pattern is to apologize and then change nothing. I have to see a new pattern, and real change. I'm determined to avoid a perpetuation of abuse.

Annie, I don't think you know that I already told him I would wait for 2 years for him to get help and recover. Honestly, I'm pregnant and it's not like I'd date before then, anyway. So, it's not a difficult promise to make.

I would like to spend the time re-cultivating a friendship - and just a friendship. I think it would give me the chance to actually see some improvement. It's easy to be nice for a month, but it's not so easy to be nice for months on end if you aren't really getting the help you need. I think a lot of the friendship was really damaged with all the abuse, and I think it would be really hard to repair the relationship if there was no relationship at all while he is in therapy. Then again, this might be something that a therapist could advise on - maybe it's not a good idea to work on the friendship right now, maybe he needs to work on himself for a few months and then see where he is.

Honestly, this all happened about an hour ago, so I really haven't had any time to process it.

For anyone unfamiliar with the rest of the stuff that has been going on, it's all out in a really long thread here in this forum. So far, it's the only other one I have started.

[organicpapayamama]

oooooo this reminds me of what my ex said to me after he left. It was 4 months after he moved out and suddenly he wanted to work on himself to get the family back but we were starting back as "friends." Long story short he was full of bs. his real motives were to get me to trust him enough to let him back in the house even if it was just to help me bring groceries up and the moment I turned my back he stole several of my items from the house. Once he got what he wanted he told me to go "ef" myself and was engaged to another woman 30 days later. they went on to have a baby girl all while we were still married.

(btw my ex also was listening to all his "friends" telling him to forget us and he even stayed with one of them, also someone I cant stand)

[*MamaJen*]

Originally Posted by DirtRoadMama

I would like to spend the time re-cultivating a friendship - and just a friendship. I think it would give me the chance to actually see some improvement. It's easy to be nice for a month, but it's not so easy to be nice for months on end if you aren't really getting the help you need. I think a lot of the friendship was really damaged with all the abuse, and I think it would be really hard to repair the relationship if there was no relationship at all while he is in therapy. Then again, this might be something that a therapist could advise on - maybe it's not a good idea to work on the friendship right now, maybe he needs to work on himself for a few months and then see where he is.

In a lot of ways you really seem to have your head on straight, which is great. I think at least intellectually, you get what's going on, though it can be a lot harder dealing with it at the gut level.
The problem with the "let's just be friends" tactic from abusive guys (and believe me, it's a common tactic -- I swear they all take the same correspondence class in how to be abusive or something) is that it's a foot in the door. Abusive guys are crazy good at jamming a toe in the door and prying it open. And then once they're in, they can do whatever they want.
Think about it. He rants, he screams, he sends psycho texts, he breaks into your house, he threatens to abandon his child forever -- none of that works to get your attention. He realizes it's not working, so he shifts gears. He says he'll change and "let's be friends." Bingo. That one worked.
You see it? He's just trying every tactic possible and he's hit on the one that works with you. It's not genuine.
All that aside, you deserve someone who treats you well because he's the kind of guy who treats his woman well. Value yourself.

[Annie Mac]

It also seems reasonable to me to say "when you are all finished getting better, then come find me," vs the hanging around waiting tactic. You're not really closing any doors you don't want closed, but you are drawing clear & healthy boundaries around yourself and your children. Promising 2 years seems rash to me. That's a long time. Things can change substantially over that period, but I get what you mean: right now, waiting doesn't seem impossible or an imposition.

[DirtRoadMama]

I'm getting a lot of "caution" comments, from here, and from my very supportive irl friend who has been helping me through this.

I take that very seriously. I know that I am close to the situation, and I know that I'm all pregnant and hormonal. I know that he could be pushing buttons to see which ones work. I hear what everyone is saying, and please, keep saying what you think. I'm listening.

I totally admit that I'm very hopeful that I get my family back. But, I want a healthy, happy family.

I grew up with abusive parents. I'm not willing for my children to go through that. I understand abusive patterns, and I understand that many abusers never change. I've spent years in therapy working through all of that stuff. What pisses me off the most is that I still can't see it coming. I meet people, and they seem nice, and they are nice... for a while. And then they turn into raging UA violations. I've finally learned how to see it coming from women, but I can't see it in men yet. At least, not the ones that I'm romantically interested in. If I'm not attracted to them, I am an amazing judge of character (maybe that is why it's generally easier for me to be discerning with women? Hmmm). It's creepy, really. I should add that I do not have a pattern of picking men who are all abusive. Some are fantastic, some are not. I've tried to see if there is a pattern in my partner selection, and have yet to find one.

I think the main hope I'm holding on to is that his problem is a chemical imbalance. I don't hold a lot of hope for a person changing who they are, but a chemical problem can be fixed. Wow. I think I just admitted that to myself.

[*MamaJen*]

Why do you want him back?
I mean that at face value. What are the reasons you want to be with him?
And what are the reasons why it might be bad to be with him?

[MissLotus]

I just looked at your other post to remind myself of your situation, and I want to say CAUTION!

I would not trust his "let's be friends" thing for TEN SECONDS. You know how quickly that will become more. He'll be so nice, he'll say all the right things, he'll be so contrite - until you're sucked back in, and he'll quickly revert to his old ways. He knows you're hanging onto hope and is tossing you crumbs, knowing you'll eagerly go after them.

He's not a healthy individual. Isn't he abusive and a cheater? Gross, gross, gross. If you didn't know him yet, and someone described him to you, would you go for someone like that? Would you want your kids in a household with someone with those traits?

Honestly, your best bet for a happy household is to let him go. Completely. Don't promise diddly-squat to him; he certainly doesn't deserve it and it just makes him feel powerful. It's a nice idea to be "just friends" but just what kind of friend has he been to you?! And, you'll never get over him without real space and time apart.

[Halfasianmomma]

Originally Posted by DirtRoadMama

I think the main hope I'm holding on to is that his problem is a chemical imbalance. I don't hold a lot of hope for a person changing who they are, but a chemical problem can be fixed. Wow. I think I just admitted that to myself.

Hi mama...I'm trying to remember the details of your story, but this section of your last post really struck me. I too thought for a long time that my STBX's issues were due to some sort of chemical imbalance. I still don't know if this is the case, BUT, having escaped from that abuse in our relationship, along with his alcohol addiction, I've come to realize this by going to Al-Anon:
Though a bunch of "Al-Anon-ers" believe that alcohol addiction is a DISEASE, it does not excuse the behaviours and choices that stem from that disease. The fact that addiction may be a disease is an explanation, not an excuse.

I hope you see where I'm going with this. The reason for his behaviour is irrelevant. Choices were made, WILLINGLY. You weren't there with a gun to his head forcing him to treat you the way he did. He chose. Over and over and over. And now the damage is done. Only his *actions*, in the long term, as in over the course of several years, can prove whether he has changed or not. This is the consequence of his behaviour and if he cannot accept it, then he can go ahead and move on.

I'd like to echo *MamaJen* post by asking this:
What are the reasons that it might be bad to be *without* him?

I'd be very leery about "being friends" if I were you. Very leery. It's all too soon, too fresh and very suspicious. It leaves him with a backdoor to your heart and into your life. Honestly mama, whatever is meant to happen WILL happen, so going "no contact" with him, or at least "very minimal contact", can't hurt in the long run if you are *meant to be together*. Take this time to get to know yourself away from him and his drama.

Finally, I hope I don't insult you by suggesting this book, but have you read "Codependent No More"? I found it rather eye-opening.

[meemee]

actually i am very impressed with his statement.

i dont see it as a 'bad' thing.

i see it as a 'right now all i can do is take care of myself' and while i do that i dotn want to screw up things between us.

i think that is v. v. healthy.

i really cant expect anything out of him. he barely knows whats going on - on top of that chemical imbalance. its a v. arduous journey for him.

absolutely dont keep your hopes up.

instead you should start doing the same yourself. start taking care of yourself. and then you might discover you dont wnat him anymore. i discovered that myself. i didnt want him back.

i actually find his words to be very wise. not irresponsible at all.

it would be great if you could be there for him as a friend. as he tries out various medications you would be a great resource to help him. that is if you want to. it is NOT an easy road, however they do badly need the support.

your relationship has ended. look at it from that perspective. let the relationship end. and build your friendship from a different place. where cheating and all those tormenting things dont exist. they dont matter because that is not what you are asking.

however YOU have to decide. a person with mental health issues - who has shown some pretty aggressive signs is not easy to be supportive to. so you decide if you want to offer support. however i would have NO EXPECTATIONS whatsoever - in any way. even teh expectation of being spoken to kindly.

i know this because i am the support person for a friend of mine. if i write all the 'wrong' she has done, you guys would tell me to run in the other direction. but i know a sweet person lives within her. its not her being 'abusive'. its actually a good sign for me to understand that either she is not taking her medication or she needs to change meds. because i can see her for who she is - all her 'abuse' does not touch me. yes it hurts nevertheless. so you have to decide what you wanna do. now i honestly know i would not be able to be married to a man like that. nor would i be able to live with that friend. however i can spend weekends with her and always return to my own place.

[*MamaJen*]

Originally Posted by meemee

actually i am very impressed with his statement.

i dont see it as a 'bad' thing.

i see it as a 'right now all i can do is take care of myself' and while i do that i dotn want to screw up things between us.

i think that is v. v. healthy.

The problem is that I seriously doubt he is being genuine when he says it. I think he's using it as a manipulation tactic to try to get back into the relationship, whereupon he'll keep on being abusive as always.
Abusers are really good at being manipulative. As you're escaping abuse, I really believe that the only way to not be manipulated is to seriously limit or cut off all contact. Also, your brain literally gets addicted to the abuse. I know it sounds weird but it's totally true. You go through something that is essentially withdrawal. Every contact with the abuser is like a tiny little hit that keeps you addicted. If you can quit cold turkey, you're so much better off.
OP, if your parents were abusive, you know that the best gift you can give to your daughter is a home free from abuse.
I think my big breakthrough came when I realized I didn't want to be with a man who was ever capable of treating me like that. I didn't want to have to expend huge amounts of energy shuttling him to therapy and setting all these boundaries and defending myself constantly in order to not be abused. I just wouldn't be with a man who was the kind who would be abusive.

[Wolfcat]

I'm just going off the posts on this thread... i am not familiar with the back-story.

I have one question for you: Why are you willing to hold out for someone who MIGHT be able to be FIXED? I wouldn't buy a car that needs a lot of work... well, not for the same price or more as what I could buy a new car.

Don't sell yourself short. Don't sell your child(ren) short. Don't sell your LIFE short. Demand better. Just because you have history with someone doesn't mean there is a future with him.

[MissLotus]

Oh yes, and yikes! He is the same person that just a few days ago broke into your house. Has he ever bothered to explain that one? Not that there's any excuse good enough! Not healthy, not normal - just scary. He has not changed this quickly.

If he had really changed, he would know to stay away and not play with your emotions UNTIL he'd improved.

[DirtRoadMama]

Oh, I don't think he has changed who he is. I think that, for the moment anyway, he has changed his mind about getting help and trying to put the family back together.

I could easily put together a pro and con list, but the con list would be filled with items that would only exist if I took him back today (before he gets help). So, I think that would not be a good exercise for me, because I'll be looking at a list of things that I will consider to not exist after successful treatment, and it would minimize the reasons today. The pro list would be full of things that any happy person would put on a list of why they love their partner, and wouldn't be helpful for me to stand strong on him not coming home yet.

The good thing about having spent so much time in therapy is I am acutely aware of what exercises really help me when I'm trying to make a decision. I also can tell the people who are trying to help me what does not help. For example (not that anyone here has done this, because no one has, it's just an example), if someone was to say bad things about him that are an exaggeration, I will instantly jump to his defense so that he is fairly represented.

This tends to really screw me over in joint counseling, because I will recount a situation with very little bias to myself. On the other hand, most people will recount a situation with a heavy bias to themselves. So, when the intermediary tries to find the middle ground, I get a raw deal, because you don't have to go too far from what I said to find the truth (if at all). *sighs* It takes me drilling this into the counselors head a few times to get them to believe me. Ok, that wandered away from the topic.

I have dealt with clinical depression. I know that, before I admitted I had a problem and got help, I was a PITA. It would have been easy for my then-husband to have written me off as not worth helping, but he didn't. Having someone not give up on you can be very important in recovery. Unfortunately for my ex-husband, the root of my depression was in being married to the wrong person. So, at the end of it, we were dissolved, but I am forever grateful that he didn't desert me when I needed him.

A large part of me knows that he could decide that he doesn't want to be with me anymore once he sorts all his stuff out. And, honestly, I'm ok with that. If nothing else, he'll be in a better place to be a good dad to our kids. It will still hurt like anything, but I think the feeling of abandonment and anger would be less. I'll feel like at least he TRIED to do something, instead of just running away and blaming everyone else for his problems. If it takes a year or two of my life to produce a father that my children can love, respect, and trust, then I'll gladly give them.

To sum up. I agree that he hasn't changed yet. I agree that I should be wary. I am fully aware that he could totally change his mind next week, or next month, etc. I am not prepared to not give him a chance to change. He is not moving back in until everything is sorted out and he is healthy, if that ever happens.

[Freedom~Mama]

I have BTDT (many times in fact) and it never worked out because he never changed. I feel like once an abuser always an abuser. It is easy for them to say they will change but real change (esp. abuse behavior that is so deeply ingrained) is so hard to change. I would be very careful. Last time I got back together with my STBX he was acting like prince charming and said he knew how bad he had been to me and that he was going to be totally different and not mean or controlling and that he was in love with me. Well about a month after we got back together I started to feel depressed and his attitude toward me totally changed back to how it previously was and things just went downhill from there. Each time I went back to him the abuse got worse and worse and I kept thinking he would and could change.

Truly I think the only chance he has of changing is by being on his own. Even then I don't know if he will change. I know I won't ever be with him again though. I realize now that I deserve someone that treats me with respect all of the time and doesn't call me names, hit me, degrade me, ignore me etc.

I am sorry to be a downer. I really hope for your sake that he will change but I really caution you that likely he will not and if you do let your heart get invested again, your heart will break over and over until you are able to finally leave and cut your heart off from him. That is what I have been through and this time I promised myself that for my kids and myself I am done no matter he says or doesn't say. I can't put my heart through it anymore, it is so very painful.

[Thao]

OP, I just want to say that I think you are doing the right thing. If I'm understanding you correctly, you've dissociated yourself from him, you've made the break. You are totally okay with your relationship never working out, and have strong boundaries. You are certainly not letting him move back in for a very long time.

But you are willing to wait two years to see if he can get his act together. Why not? I understand all of the posters who warn you not to hope too much for a change, I think that is wise. I don't understand the problem with putting off any other romantic involvements for two years on the (admittedly slim) chance that the father of your children may be sincere this time. It's not like you are just sitting around waiting, right? You are living and loving your life as a mom, etc... just not dating. I'd do the same thing. Heck, with all you have on your plate right now, I'd say it's a good thing to just be on your own and rebuild yourself for a while even if your husband weren't in the picture.

My husband has several issues -- ADD, anxiety, etc. There have been times when his behavior has been emotionally abusive at worst and really jerky at best. He HAS changed, and we are still together. Because of his physical issues, he is still not my ideal partner that I'm madly in love with, but the abusive/jerky behavior has stopped. I'm willing to stick around and see where we go with this. I don't dare say that we will never split up -- I just don't know -- but I can confidently state that if we do he will be in a much better physical and mental state to deal with it and be a divorced father. That right there is worth it to me.

Maybe I have a different take on this because we are one of the rare cases the jerky/abusive guy really did change (and we are talking years, not a few months). But I'd like to say one thing: in our case, my husband NEVER tried to control me. Maybe that is the difference between an abuser/jerk who can change and one that can't. He had HUGE temper issues that made him a pain to live with, but he never tried to isolate me from friends or family, or keep track of me, he was never jealous of my friendships (even with men), etc. His bad behavior stemmed mostly from physical issues, not a deep-seated need to control and manipulate. I don't know enough of your backstory, but if your husband has those controlling behaviors maybe my experience doesn't apply and you should be listening to all these other wise women who have BTDT.

Oh, and the other thing I'd like to say is that my husband didn't get really serious about changing until he understood that he could really lose me and our daughter. So the most important thing you can do right now to increase the chances that your husband may change is to keep those boundaries firmly in place. He needs to understand with absolutely NO ambiguity any bad behavior means you are gone.

[Minxie]

Originally Posted by *MamaJen*

The problem with the "let's just be friends" tactic from abusive guys (and believe me, it's a common tactic -- I swear they all take the same correspondence class in how to be abusive or something) is that it's a foot in the door. Abusive guys are crazy good at jamming a toe in the door and prying it open. And then once they're in, they can do whatever they want.
Think about it. He rants, he screams, he sends psycho texts, he breaks into your house, he threatens to abandon his child forever -- none of that works to get your attention. He realizes it's not working, so he shifts gears. He says he'll change and "let's be friends." Bingo. That one worked.
You see it? He's just trying every tactic possible and he's hit on the one that works with you. It's not genuine.
All that aside, you deserve someone who treats you well because he's the kind of guy who treats his woman well. Value yourself.

With me, it was the threat to abandon his child forever. I finally let him know that was on him and I let go of it. He last talked with my DS six weeks ago despite my son calling him and sobbing into the phone that, "I want my Daddy!"

He'll get close to my son again over my cold dead body. The next time he talks to him, he better have a court order in hand and the sheriff at his side.

(Quick backstory: we were never married, he refuses to acknowledge paternity and so has no legal right to my DS. I invited him into DS' life and encouraged a strong relationship between them. When I asked him to increase the CS he was sending me (still much less than the court would set), his solution was to drop out of DS' life altogether.)