Why do we magically...

[yippityskippity]

... lose the ability to teach our kids things once they reach school age? I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Why do our kids suddenly need a formal program for every subject, instead of just reading books, talking about things and explaining hows and whys (or, even better, letter our DCs figure out some of the hows and why themselves)?

There's not much point to this. I'm just thinking out loud...

I've been "officially" homeschooling since Aug '09 and I think I may finally be officially deschooled, because so much of the educational status quo just looks backwards and ineffective.

[Mama~Love]

ITA with what you said! Do they really need to know what happened in China in 340 A.D? Mine don't, and wouldn't care anyway. Life learning is so important, and there's hardly any of that going on on schools.

[AAK]

Yes, but a good grasp of history (not memorizing dates, but understanding the course of human history) helps to provide a basis for higher level thought later on in life. I think that we need to know what happened during the holocaust (and how it came about) so that it may be prevented from reoccurring (just as one example). I don't think the memorizing the dates or all the people in power is important. Certain key figures (ie Hitler) would be key to know simply to be able to understand common references, political satire, etc.

Amy

[moominmamma]

I hate to say it, but from a societal standpoint I think that ability to teach our kids is being increasingly whittled away from babyhood onwards. It doesn't magically kick in at KG age. What my start out as a well-intentioned social opportunity for new moms like a mom & baby yoga class gradually morphs into the expectation of gymtots at age 2.5 (for gross-motor skills), half-day preschool by age 3 (to aid language and social development), kindermusik by 3.5 (to develop creativity), soccer by age 4 (more gross motor skills), NatureKids at 4.5, art class at 5, and so on. There's a general trend towards "contracting out" what used to be parent-guided family-based learning to so-called experts. The implication being that kicking a ball around in the backyard or singing during car trips would be insufficiently expert instruction for a preschooler.

Miranda

[FireWithin]

Originally Posted by moominmamma

I hate to say it, but from a societal standpoint I think that ability to teach our kids is being increasingly whittled away from babyhood onwards. It doesn't magically kick in at KG age. What my start out as a well-intentioned social opportunity for new moms like a mom & baby yoga class gradually morphs into the expectation of gymtots at age 2.5 (for gross-motor skills), half-day preschool by age 3 (to aid language and social development), kindermusik by 3.5 (to develop creativity), soccer by age 4 (more gross motor skills), NatureKids at 4.5, art class at 5, and so on. There's a general trend towards "contracting out" what used to be parent-guided family-based learning to so-called experts. The implication being that kicking a ball around in the backyard or singing during car trips would be insufficiently expert instruction for a preschooler.

Miranda

well said Miranda.

I feel like we (my family) have to constantly fight , both internally and externally, the pressure and desire to outsource. My boys grow and develop so well when the balance is more towards free exploration and play than structured activities. My almost 7 year old does take an art class and we are thinking of a martial arts class.

[Niamh]

Moominmama expressed perfectly my feelings about societal 'chipping away' at parental abilities to teach their children.

I have a friend who homeschools who I admire a lot. We do differ on the issue of 'unschooling' (or life learning) and curriculum. When we've discussed it and I've brought up the idea that children naturally *want* to learn, that for the most part it's just a matter of following their interests and introducing things you think they'll be interested in, she said "That works really well when they're little. It's what I do until they're five years old. It may even work until they're eight. But I have yet to have a child hit eight years old that didn't all of the sudden start to hate learning. Not just school work, but learning at all. They just don't care about anything, they have no interests. If I didn't have a curriculum to help me, they'd do nothing all day."

So her belief that she can't teach them on her own without a curriculum leads her to start her children on a curriculum (she uses K12 which is what I would use if we used curriculum). In my humble opinion, her starting them on a curriculum is what leads to them, three years later, suddenly showing an intense dislike in anything that smacks of 'school' or learning.

Also just thinking 'out loud' here.

[mykdsmomy]

I was sort of thinking the same thing today about my children. I think Miranda said it perfectly when she talked about the pressure to outsource. We as parents are made to feel inadequate as "teachers".

When my kiddos went to school (All of them have dabbled in public or private school but we're back at home again as it feels the most "natural" for our family), I felt as if my parental rights were being taken away. I felt I had little control over what/how they learned.

As far as kids losing their desire to learn, this is something I'm currently struggling with. For example: My 11 year old dd asked me about mosquito eaters the other day. I told her we could look it up and learn about them. She said "eh, I don't really care that much". OR she is very interested in cats. She has checked out a few books from the library about cats. She tends to just look at the pictures and pick out a few facts that interest her. I told her I'd like her to do a report on cats and now all of a sudden, she would rather eat nails than work on this report.
For me it's a struggle between teaching them to "work" a little to find the answer to something and letting their natural curiosity lead them to learn.

I don't think kids necessarily lose the desire to learn but I do think that they need to learn that perseverance sometimes is needed to really learn. After all, I still have to push myself to get things done. I'd much rather sit in front of the computer with a Starbucks cup all day than read Dickens

[mom2ponygirl]

Originally Posted by yippityskippity

... lose the ability to teach our kids things once they reach school age?

No, just when they hit puberty. Can you tell we have some tween moodiness around here?

I've gradually transitioned from teacher to facilitator/co-learner but I totally agree with you!

It's funny because my daughter loves to learn about so many things, our main problem is making choices and leaving stuff out. However, learning to keep her room picked up and remembering her chores without multiple reminders is difficult. I may actually have to ground my child from academics so that we can work on basic household duties!

[MrsJewelsRae]

ITA with you Miranda. There is a definite push to separate mamas and kids earlier and earlier and hand them over to the government, cause you know it's important they all have the same opportunities and apparently we just don't have the ability to teach them ourselves. Here in Ontario Canada they have just introduced all day kintergarten- every day. But it is only in certain schools this year, w/i a year or 2 I think all schools will have it. It is "optional" to go the full day 5 days a week for now. But I think the pressure will be on the parents who don't "take advantage" of the benefit of full day K- their kids will not be getting as much academic advantages as their full day peers, the parents will be made to feel they are robbing their children socially as well. I just don't see it being optional for long. There is also a huge push for government funded daycare. I see that turning into pressure for moms as well, they're pushed into kindy to prepare them for grade 1, pushed to do preschool to prepare for kindy, and in the future I see a push for toddler daycare to prepare for preschool. I've already seen it happen to several families I knew who's toddlers had speech delays, the prescription for each child was the same- put them in f/t daycare centers for more social interaction in order to stimulate speech.

It's strange how people are so fixated on school age. I had so much support in my church to be a SAHM, but as soon as he hit 5 suddenly I wasn't equipped to keep him learning at home, he needed an institution full of peers and strange elders with degrees to teach him properly! Doesn't make any sense....

[jessicaSAR]

I agree that all the preschool stuff is overkill and unnecessary, and I don't think that we magically lose our ability to teach when children reach school age (whatever you think that age is). Obviously, there are lots of us doing it, lol.

But, I am an advocate of a thoughtful approach to education, and I do think that it takes considerable time and effort and thought to put together a good quality education. If parents are not interested in putting in that time and effort to educate their children (and I have plenty of friends who are not), then school is probably a good option. The schools may not be perfect, but at least there is an education plan there.

[Tjej]

I agree with the "outsourcing" concept. That is what seems to be happening.

MrsJewels - Our area (BC) is phasing in full-day kindergarten too. This coming year maybe half the schools are offering it and the next year it will be everywhere. I actually think that for me it may work to my advantage, because DH is not that into the idea of homeschooling, but he does agree that full-day kindergarten is a bit much and unnecessary. Our local school is also being rebuilt, and I went on a tour and they explained that the school will be built with additional classrooms for the coming preK classes they are planning to add in the next 5-10 years (or something like that). Since kindy will be full day, they plan to add half day for the next age down or so. I really think that it is mainly about providing free daycare to working families in a hidden sort of way. I appreciate the good it could do for people, but it does make my SAHM position somewhat obsolete/disadvantageous from a monetary perspective.

Tjej

[Storm Bride]

DS2 has been in preschool. I was thinking about kindergarten, because he really seems to enjoy a lot of what goes on in preschool. But, you know...that's not happening. The local school has gone to full-day kindy, and I'm not even a little bit onboard with that. It's just way too much for kids that young, imo.

I also agree with Miranda. We have this weird cultural "thing" about putting very young kids in all kinds of classes. I do a few classes, but they're totally child led. DD2 has wanted to learn ballet for a long time, so she's in ballet. DS2 wanted to take "boy's ballet", and we couldn't find a class, so he's taking something called "Stomp'N'Boyz", instead. It's based on the Stomp! performance that was really big several years ago, and it's really cool. Even the preschool kind of happened by accident, but he wanted to go.

I'm schooling under a very flexible program that runs under the Ministry of Education. I do have to put in a certain number of hours each week. But, I can take them to the playground for an hour, and that counts for "physical education". DD2 and I can have a long talk about what's going on with her friend's family (dad was laid off, and they're fighting and stuff), and that goes under "social studies/community". I'm learning a lot, too - just so much about how to look at things, and about how much learning is always going on.

The other thing about it I find weird is the whole "you think you can do what a teacher does? They have a lot of postsecondary education to do that job!" mindset. I'm not doing what a teacher does. I have two learners (well, three, counting the baby), not 20 or 25 or whatever. I'm setting my own "curriculum", not having one imposed on me. I'm teaching (mostly) what the kids want to learn, not trying to cram facts about Uganda down the throat of a child who is obsessed with Australia (that's autobiographical - exactly what was going on when I was in 5th grade). I'm taking my kids out for a walk/time in the playground when they're antsy, not trying to make them sit still at a desk. Classroom teachers have a very difficult job, but it's not the same job as what I'm doing.

[littlemizflava]

Originally Posted by yippityskippity

... lose the ability to teach our kids things once they reach school age?

no i think it is more like from 6 months at the latest

Originally Posted by moominmamma

I hate to say it, but from a societal standpoint I think that ability to teach our kids is being increasingly whittled away from babyhood onwards. It doesn't magically kick in at KG age. What my start out as a well-intentioned social opportunity for new moms like a mom & baby yoga class gradually morphs into the expectation of gymtots at age 2.5 (for gross-motor skills), half-day preschool by age 3 (to aid language and social development), kindermusik by 3.5 (to develop creativity), soccer by age 4 (more gross motor skills), NatureKids at 4.5, art class at 5, and so on. There's a general trend towards "contracting out" what used to be parent-guided family-based learning to so-called experts. The implication being that kicking a ball around in the backyard or singing during car trips would be insufficiently expert instruction for a preschooler.

Miranda

well said

Originally Posted by MrsJewelsRae

Here in Ontario Canada they have just introduced all day kintergarten- every day.

i know and the intake age is 3

[kathymuggle]

Just a little, slightly off topic note:

In Ontario the JK age is 3 or 4 and will be full day soon.

Our library is worried about how this will play out for storytime, and the Ontario Early years is also concerned. I would not be suprised if services for 4-6 year olds were phased out as "the schools are now handling it."

Both storytime and early year programs are programs children attend with their parents - which I really think is best for that age group - and it is a resource I expect to dry up. It is really sad.

[Storm Bride]

Another thought I had about this is what a strange dichotomy our culture has about this, and how nobody seems to see it. We're constantly being urged to put kids in more school, at earlier ages. (I'm 41. When I was a kid, preschool was pretty much unheard of, and nobody put their kids in full-day kindergarten! I don't think it even existed.) At the same time, I see, over and over and over and over, that the single best predictor of a child's success in school is how involved the parents are in the child's education. I'm confused. A parent's involvement is the key to effective education...but spending less time with their parents is...the key to effective education??

[MrsJewelsRae]

I see, over and over and over and over, that the single best predictor of a child's success in school is how involved the parents are in the child's education. I'm confused. A parent's involvement is the key to effective education...but spending less time with their parents is...the key to effective education??

Exactly!

And FTR we do somewhat traditional schooling at home, very loosely though, but we have textbooks and subjects and goals, etc. Though there are lot of unschoolers who are turning out exceptionally well, I don't think homeschooling has to look like public school done at home to be effective. We also enroll in music lessons and swimming. I do think it is important to have a fair grasp of many subjects (math, geography, grammar, history, etc) because it can be socially embarassing not to mention potentially crippling in the business world once they are grown.