Are Catholics considered Christian??? - Page 3

[dado]

Originally posted by DaryLLL
What happened to the 100,000 minus the 2000 that were actually killed in the Spanish Inq, I wonder? Given milk and cookies?

her numbers are, to put it charitably, spun. a quarter million Jews were expelled and their property confiscated by both religious and secular authorities. no trial, simply told "leave and live or stay and die". so they aren't even counted towards the "only" 100,000. considering the population of all Europe then was similar to Germany alone today, those are enormous number.

and you're right, Jews weren't alone in this: before we got expelled, Muslims had their turn as the focus of attention.

[menudo]

I never heard this til I moved to NYC.I also started hearing that Catholic worshiped statues, etc. Some Catholics were ignorant and said "yes , we do". No, the statues are said to be symbols, reminders, etc. of the these revered people. Also, we do not pray TO Saints/dead relatives/etc. We pray THROUGH them. ie."Hey, Saint. babrbara, could yousaya prayer for me up there" I hope that is a good example. Or "Hey Mom (who is past), can you help me? Ask Jesus to give me strength". Anyway, it alwaysbothered me how misunderstood these things are, although I am not exactly practicing myself... But I did for over 20 years...

What adds to this is the cultural influences of Catholicism-like Santeria andd Catholicism-whole different twist, common where I used to live...

[barbara]

Originally posted by bebesho2
I never heard this til I moved to NYC.I also started hearing that Catholic worshiped statues, etc. Some Catholics were ignorant and said "yes , we do". No, the statues are said to be symbols, reminders, etc. of the these revered people. Also, we do not pray TO Saints/dead relatives/etc. We pray THROUGH them. ie."Hey, Saint. babrbara, could yousaya prayer for me up there" I hope that is a good example. Or "Hey Mom (who is past), can you help me? Ask Jesus to give me strength". Anyway, it alwaysbothered me how misunderstood these things are, although I am not exactly practicing myself... But I did for over 20 years...

What adds to this is the cultural influences of Catholicism-like Santeria andd Catholicism-whole different twist, common where I used to live...

Thanks bebesho2, that is a good explaination that I had not heard before and I will pass along to some people I know that seem to be confused about Catholic pratices.

Can you elaborate on what Santeria is?

[dado]

Originally posted by bebesho2
Also, we do not pray TO Saints/dead relatives/etc. We pray THROUGH them.

how do you go "through" something without going "to" something first?

[Peppermint]

Thanks for clearing up how we ask the Saints for their Intercession and how they are not "dead" bebesho2 and Sean

Yes- Catholics are Christians.

[CharlieBrown]

i always identified myself as a Catholic until i met my husband who is from Turkey which is predominently Muslim. now i say i am a Christian when talking to people of other religions.

diane

[Elzabet]

By "through" what most catholics mean is they ask someone to pray for them. When I ask, for example, my MIL (who is alive) or my mom (who is in Heaven) to pray for me I'm not "praying to" either of them in the same sense that I am praying to God. I'm not worshipping either of them but I am asking them to join with me in asking God for <fill in request here>. Afterward I say thank you.

[Elzabet]

Originally posted by barbara
Can you elaborate on what Santeria is?

I found this site with a definition of santeriaand it was pretty helpful. I thought it was another name for voodoo/voudou/voudoun (pick a spelling).

Santeria is a syncretistic religion of Caribbean origin. It incorporates the worship of the Orisha (literally "head guardian") and beliefs of the Yoruba and Bantu people in Southern Nigeria, Senegal and Guinea Coast. These are combined with elements of worship from Roman Catholicism.

Its origins date back to the slave trade when Yoruba natives were forcibly transported from Africa to the Caribbean. They were typically baptized by the Roman Catholic church upon arrival, and their native practices were suppressed. They developed a novel way of keeping their old beliefs alive by equating the each Orisha of their traditional religions with a corresponding Christian Saint. Many traditions within the religion recognize different equivalencies. One common example includes:

--Babalz Ayi became St. Lazarus (patron of the sick)
--Shangs became St. Barbara (controls thunder, lightning, fire...)
--Eleggua or Elegba became St. Anthony (controls roads, gates etc)
--Obatala became Our Lady of Las Mercedes, and the Resurrected Christ (father of creation; source of spirituality)
--Oggzn became St. Peter (patron of war)
--Oshzn became Our Lady of Charity (controls money, sensuality...)

I think the spellings of the deities are off though.

[dado]

Originally posted by Elzabet
I'm not worshipping either of them but I am asking them to join with me in asking God for <fill in request here>. Afterward I say thank you.

gotcha. i often have "pretend" conversations with my grandparents when i feel like i need guidance, what you describe sounds like maybe it's in the same ballpark.

[laralou]

Prayer can be interpreted to be a request. Have you heard the expression, "pray tell?" It isn't always a request of a god.

My understanding (from the nun who leads the conversion classes at our local Catholic church) is that praying to the saints is much like talking to one's dead relative. The assumption is that all of the saints are in heaven and you ask them to intercede to God for you. No more "sinful" than saying to your dead mother (for example), "Oh, Mom, I don't know what to do. Please ask God to help me."

There is no "worship" of saints endorsed by the Catholic church.

Putting on mod hat now:

I haven't read the entire thread so I hope that the thread is leading into the direction of discussing the different ways people see the Catholic church as opposed to making judgements on Catholics as to whether or not they are Christians.

I want to remind everyone of this from the Spirituality Forum Guidelines (sticky at the top of this forum):

While we will not restrict discussions to persons of the faith being discussed we will be active in discouraging an individual from posting for the purpose of disagreement, with no interest in practicing the faith or belief in discussion, or to prove a faith or a person's belief to be wrong, misguided, or not based on fact.

[DaryLLL]

I'm confused on one point here.

Do Catholics believe dead humans are already resurrected in heaven? I have heard that some Xtians (Cath or not I do not know) believe dead humans are dead until the End of Days when all willl be resurrected, judged and either taken up to heaven or banished to hell.

And what about purgatory?

I could see formally recognized saints getting a get into heaven free card and being there, but one's own ordinary mother? Has she already been judged and transported heavenward, or does she have to wait?

[HeatherSanders]

I don't believe anyone one faith/belief system can claim to have the rights to the term Christian.

Isn't Christian - one who is a follower of Christ?

So, my impression is that any person that desires to follow Christ could 'label' themselves Christian despite religious affiliations.

[Elzabet]

Originally posted by DaryLLL
I'm confused on one point here.

Do Catholics believe dead humans are already resurrected in heaven? I have heard that some Xtians (Cath or not I do not know) believe dead humans are dead until the End of Days when all willl be resurrected, judged and either taken up to heaven or banished to hell.

And what about purgatory?

I could see formally recognized saints getting a get into heaven free card and being there, but one's own ordinary mother? Has she already been judged and transported heavenward, or does she have to wait?

I don't quite believe in Purgatory. It doesn't sit right. Could be my USA/evangelical upbringing but I'm still investigating it. That thought aside however, since I know my mom's beliefs at her death I think she went straight in and I work from that point of view. ~shrug~ I don't know, however I prefer to be an optimist because she was my mom. If she is in Purgatory then she can still pray (afaiak) and if "soul sleep" is true then the requests do no harm.

The Resurrection is something else entirely, it hasn't happened yet as far as I know.

[EFmom]

I just thought I'd add, if I want to learn about a religion--like if it's Christian or not--I would go to a website from that particular religious organization, not one by those who are out to denigrate, insult, belittle, etc, it.

I would look at both types of web sites (and much more) if I wanted to get a balanced picture of what any organization was all about. This goes for any church, not just the catholic church. The official web site will present the image that the organization wants you to see. It will not necessarily present a realistic view of what the organization is all about. Clearly, if The People's Temple had an official website, it probably wouldn't mention the poisoned coolaid. I'm currently a member of a Methodist church. Methodist missionaries have done some pretty crappy things, but you don't find that on the official Methodist web site. But when I research the organization before joining, I wanted to read those things so I knew what I was getting into.

I was raised catholic and had a catholic education. I don't think there is a simple yes/no answer to this question. I think the catholic church has a power structure, much doctrine, and all kinds of trappings that have absolutely nothing to do with the teachings of Christ. Yet obviously many of the teachings are based on the word of Christ.

[Sean]

Originally posted by DaryLLL
Do Catholics believe dead humans are already resurrected in heaven?

And what about purgatory?

I could see formally recognized saints getting a get into heaven free card and being there, but one's own ordinary mother? Has she already been judged and transported heavenward, or does she have to wait?

Broadly speaking, Catholics and Protestants all agree that the dead will be resurrected at, or near, the end of time. These resurrected people will be judged by Jesus, and sent on their way to eternal reward or eternal punishment.

But Catholics actually believe everyone is also judged immediately upon his own death. So everyone who's died in the past has already been judged, and is in Heaven, or Hell, or Purgatory. They are at the moment incorporeal, but will be reunited with their bodies at the resurrection.

(Purgatory is where people who are destined for Heaven but aren't pure enough to enter yet, go to get pure. Everyone currently in Purgatory is going to Heaven, guaranteed.)

So, there are two judgments, see? The "particular" judgment (of individuals when they die), and the "general judgment" (of everybody at the end of time). The resurrected folks who have already had their particular judgment already know where they're spending eternity, but they have to show up for the general judgment anyway, like a summons.

There are three people in Heaven right now corporeally, that is, with their bodies. Jesus, Mary, and the prophet Elijah.

There is a list, or "canon," of people the Church is pretty sure are in Heaven. (There are some angels on the list, too.) Catholics are allowed to venerate these "canonized" saints in public. You can pray privately to anyone not on the list (e.g., your own mother) if you think she's in Heaven.

While great pains are taken to make sure only holy people get canonized, the canon is not infallible, except for a handful of people we know are in Heaven, because the Bible says so.

[DaryLLL]

So, acc to Catholic (non-Biblical but Spirit inspired) doctrine, heaven has categories for different beings.

God--no body, right?

Christ, body and soul?
Maria Virgine--body and soul?
Elijah--body and soul?
(no Enoch?)

Angels--just a spirit type being?
Human saints--still just a spirit?
Prejudged humans (non-saints)--ditto?

I have seen early Renn paintings of Christ going to hell, standing on Satan, and bringing out Adam and Eve, Moses, Abraham, etc. (Gnostic gospels tell of Christ's 3 days in Hades completing this mission.) So I guess these patri-matri-archs are still just spirits too until the bodily resurrection time, just like anyone's dead grandmother?

I did always wonder how you could pray to a saint/grandmother if they weren't resurrected yet. I have more clarity now, thanks.

[Sean]

Originally posted by DaryLLL
So, acc to Catholic (non-Biblical but Spirit inspired) doctrine, heaven has categories for different beings.
(etc.)

Enoch too, I forgot Enoch. Thanks DaryLLL. Sorry, Enoch. Other than his absence, your categories were good enough (although, since Jesus is God, he should have been up there in that group).

And I wouldn't exactly call these beliefs "non-Biblical." There is scriptural warrant for every one of these beliefs, some more than others, to be sure. The Ascension of Christ, the translation of Enoch and Elijah, the angels, Heaven and Hell, all of these are in the Bible plain as day. Purgatory is not so clearly stated, but implied, and about the Assumption of Mary scripture is silent.

The rescue of the pre-Christian saints from Hell isn't only covered in the gnostic texts; it's also mentioned in the Bible. These were the righteous men and women who couldn't get into Heaven yet, because Christ had not redeemed mankind yet. His death on the cross made it possible for them to leave Hell (although this was obviously not the Hell of the damned, but more like Purgatory), and I'll bet they were pretty anxious to get out of there, too. So it was a top priority.

1 Peter 4: 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

[spero]

Sean, not to step on your toes here, but I just wanted to clarify that Purgatory is classified by the Church as a state of being (purification), not an actual place. And nobody knows how long a soul is in that particular state. It certainly makes more sense, and seems less forboding, when you look at it that way.

Onward......

[Sean]

Originally posted by DaryLLL
Angels--just a spirit type being?
Human saints--still just a spirit?
Prejudged humans (non-saints)--ditto?

Wait, after looking more closely, I see you do have something a little wrong. The "Prejudged humans (non-saints)" line. There is no such thing and a prejudged human in the afterlife. The particular judgment occurs immediately after death, and the soul goes immediately to Heaven, Purgatory, or Hell. Every soul in Heaven is a saint, even the ones not on our list. Am I explaining this badly?

[Sean]

Originally posted by skellbelle
Purgatory is classified by the Church as a state of being (purification), not an actual place.

Yes, you are absolutley right, thanks. The Bible speaks of Heaven and Hell as places, because that's the easiest way for us spatially constrained beings to talk about them. I was using adverbs like 'where' to spend eternity, but only in the Biblical sense.

And nobody knows how long a soul is in that particular state.

I hope it's not long!!!