would you take on more debt to get out of a house? (sorry, long post)

[canuckgal]

I live in a money pit and have posted my dilemma about this before. I had some mold in my basement, one area we knew about before moving in, and last week called a mold remediation company in, as I have discovered it is behind way more than the one wall that it is obvious. The mold guy pointed out a whole bunch of things to me (yard drainage issues in the past--that we have remedied---, cracks upstairs, main level floor, pattern of the mold coming up from the basement floor) that the building inspector we hired had neglected to tie together to us, and he believes that we may have a cracked footing in our foundation and/or weeping tile failure (although our floor drain seems to drain well, we have had to roto-root it out)

We are wanting to gut the basement out as it needs it anyway. Of course the HRV installation we were thinking about is on hold as we have to seriously debate if we should stay here. That sucks as we have put so much into this house...new roof, attic insulation and insulation blown into walls, painting (LOTS of that!) and new furnace/hot water tank/air conditioner installed on a Hydro energy plan. The day that guy was out was not a happy one for me. I was bawling as I put the second coat of paint in the bathroom I spent 3 weeks sanding and mudding to repair the half assed job the the previous owners did.

I am quite anguished about this house now. That basement thing was the LAST straw for me. We have a now 27,000 line of credit that we are able to put a fair bit of $$ on each month, and I am proud to say I have not charged a credit card for the last 18 mo...we are chipping away at this debt of ours little by little. The LOC is our only debt other than a RRSP withdrawal from my husband's schooling (both vehicles plus credit card are on the line of credit, no separate vehicle payment).

I am leaning towards gutting the basement, finding out for sure what is going on, and staying in here the two more years it takes to pay off the Hydro loan that is on our utility bill each month, put $$ as much as possible on the credit line, finishing the painting to spruce it up, and put it on the market. Problem is that I will take a loss of the lawyer, real estate fees, etc...if I were to sell today it would be about 12,000.00 or so. I have to check to see if the mortgage is assumable, maybe that would be an option. It is 4 bedroom, but the market here is quite strong and growing rapidly so far so I think I will have to cross my fingers I can get what is remaining on the mortgage....I think it will have to be an "as is" sale of course.

My husband has been quite resistant to getting out of this house, but I think he is now leaning to it. My thoughts are...as much as it sucks to go back to renting, and rent would be a bit more than our current mortgage payment, we wouldn't be taking 5 yrs or so give or take to pay off the LOC, leave the house in a state of disrepair in that time (the basement issues of course...God forbid we need an external excavation for something...we have 30+ yr old windows with some rotted sills, and it's not all sided) and then be stuck at the end of that LOC payoff with those major things to do and not even BEGIN to be able to do the cosmetic things that would increase it's resale value like the kitchen and flooring and refinishing the basement. And, we would be approaching our 50's! We still have a retirement to catch up to as well!!! I think I am wanting to live without the constant dread of having to fix things "directly" as a homeowner.

I guess I am seeing it as taking some losses now (closing costs, etc) and renting, and then hopefully in 5 yrs or so being free from the LOC....and not needing it directly for the blowup of a hot water tank or something!!! I am so burned by home ownership that I don't care if I am 50 10 years from now and have no "equity".

It also sucks to be facing a decision that has implications for me over the next 10-15 years!

Thoughts anyone........?

[zebra15]

I guess my question is if you sell now, would anyone buy 'as is'? or will you try to fix everything then sell. What happens if you try to fix everything and you can't borrow enough to cover the costs associated with the renovation?

Mold is horrible and very nasty to try to clean and fix ...think$$

Im so sorry you are dealing with this..

whatever you decide good luck.

[eirual]

There is often a fee associated with buying out your mortgage early too (we were looking into selling and renting and it would be $9,000 on top of the ~ $20,000 real estate fees). We've decided to rent our place out.


As for the mould....

You obviously have a finished basement, yes? What kind of materials are down there? Do you have a raised and finished floor or concrete? Dry walled walls?...what about the ceiling? Do you use the basement as a living space? Would you be willing not to?

Personally, I think I would rent a good number of industrial dehumidifiers, and at least stop it from continuing to spread while you figure out a game plan. Have you priced what it would cost to have the material with mold on it removed? You could maybe try your luck writing into a home improvement show for help too?

Do some research and explore your options. Our basement walls (unfinished) get moldy in the summer since we don't have a dehumidifier in our basement, but I just wipe it down with bleach and it's a non-issue. I'd love to hear some more information about just how intensive the mold is and where exactly it's hiding and on which sort of materials.

[canuckgal]

Originally Posted by zebra15

What happens if you try to fix everything and you can't borrow enough to cover the costs associated with the renovation?

This is why I would do an immaculate job of painting, and then try to sell as is, of course with full disclosure of the basement issues. I'm at the point that with my other debts I can't keep putting major amounts of money in the house...the basement, windows, and siding bring it up to "minimum standard", yet do nothing like replace old lino that would add market value KWIM? FWIW we have a few as is sales on the market right now in our area, and I know of a house on the street behind us unlived in for 7 years that was sold as well as is. I would hope to get what is on our mortgage at this point.

There is NO way I can borrow to cover the costs of the renovating at this point...we had planned on staying here for the next 10-15 years, and save up for some cosmetic stuff like flooring and carpet, but then as I said before we only thought we had windows and siding as the major things... the thought of a potential 20,000+ basement job is freaking me out. I want the basement just stripped, concrete scoured clean by the company so I could have that in writing, and just get the hell out The building inspector made this all seem not as serious as it is turning out to be...as I said in my OP, she didn't tie alot of things together such as this...can lead to "this"...for us an unfortunately in the 3 years we have been here we are finding out the hard way.

[ChristyMarie]

Wow, that's a lot to take in, isn't it? (((hugs)))

Well my first thought is that you need a second and maybe a third opinion on the extent of the damages and the repair costs before you jump ship. You've had one person out there who could not see the extent of the damage because the basement is finished. Additionally, of course he's going to point out every single thing - he wants to make a big sale on repair work. There's often a difference between what must be done and what can be done to fix an issue.

Personally I would get in the basement and rip it all out. Rent a dumpster and just trash it. You aren't going to know the extent until you clear it out and it sounds like eventually you planned on refinishing anyways. Wear a breathing mask and just get it over with. Depending on your area and the amount of debris your dumpster should be about $200-400. Not a big investment.

Then call in a couple of people for estimates.

A few dehumidifiers and gutter extensions can do a lot to get moisture away from the house and out of the basement. A basement sealing system applied to the interior walls can also do a lot. There are solutions out there, you just need to figure out what is good for you.

ETA: I just thought of something else... How is the ventilation in your attic? Is there proper roof venting? Do you get ice backup on the edges of your roof in the winter? Is there a slightly sweet smell next to the eves as a result? Do you have a whole house attic fan? If the roof venting is not adequate that could be contributing to the problem and that is a (relatively) cheap fix. Adding a whole house attic fan will also help greatly with ventilation. Again, a relatively inexpensive fix.

Additionally, even with full disclosure of these issues, there is not guarantee a mortgage and insurance company will approve the sale for a new buyer. Remember, any buyer will have to qualify for the mortgage with a home inspection and appraisal, which the insurance company will look at as well. My guess is that no insurance company will insure the house until the mold is taken care of. So selling might not be as easy as you may think unless you have an all cash buyer.

Originally Posted by canuckgal

I guess I am seeing it as taking some losses now (closing costs, etc) and renting, and then hopefully in 5 yrs or so being free from the LOC....and not needing it directly for the blowup of a hot water tank or something!!! I am so burned by home ownership that I don't care if I am 50 10 years from now and have no "equity".

Is your LOC a personal loan or a home equity line? If it is a home equity line you must pay it off at the time of the sale.

[canuckgal]

Originally Posted by eirual

There is often a fee associated with buying out your mortgage early too (we were looking into selling and renting and it would be $9,000 on top of the ~ $20,000 real estate fees). We've decided to rent our place out.


As for the mould....

You obviously have a finished basement, yes? What kind of materials are down there? Do you have a raised and finished floor or concrete? Dry walled walls?...what about the ceiling? Do you use the basement as a living space? Would you be willing not to?

Personally, I think I would rent a good number of industrial dehumidifiers, and at least stop it from continuing to spread while you figure out a game plan. Have you priced what it would cost to have the material with mold on it removed? You could maybe try your luck writing into a home improvement show for help too?

Do some research and explore your options. Our basement walls (unfinished) get moldy in the summer since we don't have a dehumidifier in our basement, but I just wipe it down with bleach and it's a non-issue. I'd love to hear some more information about just how intensive the mold is and where exactly it's hiding and on which sort of materials.

I am waiting for a price from the mold company. I do have 2 dehumidifiers I run 24/7. We do not have a vented bathroom downstairs, or any fan over our stove, or in our upstairs bathroom. This is why we were looking into the HRV.

The basement is finished with a bathroom (obviously a DIY with the main floor drain of the basement right in the middle of the floor ....!), a walled off laundry room, a walled off storage, one room next to the bathroom they maybe were intending for a bedroom, and then one large open area. It is all drywall. In the "bedroom", I have been able to expose a hole at the floor in the wall (it is drywall with panelling on top) where the wall and floor meet, as it just crumbles in my hand...moldy back there, and the base 2x4 of the framing on the floor rotted too. It was all painted over but a lawyer said we wouldn't be able to sue as we knew there was some mold anyway. Moldy as well on the same wall behind the pine panelling in the bathroom we have since discovered. The only mold we could see at purchase was about 18" high from the floor, a 3 ft long spot, in the storage room, behind stuff right up at the wall. That spring the snow melted and we saw the grade of the soil majorly sunken to the house...we could see over a foot of the black dampproofing stuff they paint on basement walls on the outside! We filled all this in the first summer we were there. I am suspecting that the mold is around the whole perimeter, at least where the sunken soil is.

The basement is just the pink insulation/wood framing up against bare concrete (which releases moisture!!!), with vapor barrier then drywall on top.

They also didn't have eavestroughs extended....of course the base of the concrete/bottom of the basement is going to be wet. I am hoping the mold is just because of drainage issues, not because of heaving/cracking of the walls. Although, our plaster walls upstairs have needed alot of crack repair, so that is not a good sign either, especially with the diagonal one over my dining room door to the ceiling that keeps reforming, and the door sticking and such...stuff like that all "tied together" along with where the mold is is what is making the mold guys suspect the concrete is heaved/footing damaged from water. Uuugh! Even if it is "only" because of the grading/eaves, I am a bit nervous about our weeping tile status, and we need a sump as well put in.

[ChristyMarie]

How much water are the dehumidifiers producing?

Is the drywall wet or just crumbly?

Plaster cracking is pretty darn normal and unless you rip out the entire ceiling and redo it the crack is going to reappear. If it is staying in the same place and not spreading then it is just from a house settling over time. I wouldn't be overly concerned about that. Cracks happen as a house settles. Just does. The concern would be a rapidly spreading crack or lots and lots of new ones.

[canuckgal]

Originally Posted by ChristyMarie

Wow, that's a lot to take in, isn't it? (((hugs)))

Well my first thought is that you need a second and maybe a third opinion on the extent of the damages and the repair costs before you jump ship. You've had one person out there who could not see the extent of the damage because the basement is finished. Additionally, of course he's going to point out every single thing - he wants to make a big sale on repair work. There's often a difference between what must be done and what can be done to fix an issue.

Personally I would get in the basement and rip it all out. Rent a dumpster and just trash it. You aren't going to know the extent until you clear it out and it sounds like eventually you planned on refinishing anyways. Wear a breathing mask and just get it over with. Depending on your area and the amount of debris your dumpster should be about $200-400. Not a big investment.

Then call in a couple of people for estimates.

A few dehumidifiers and gutter extensions can do a lot to get moisture away from the house and out of the basement. A basement sealing system applied to the interior walls can also do a lot. There are solutions out there, you just need to figure out what is good for you.

ETA: I just thought of something else... How is the ventilation in your attic? Is there proper roof venting? Do you get ice backup on the edges of your roof in the winter? Is there a slightly sweet smell next to the eves as a result? Do you have a whole house attic fan? If the roof venting is not adequate that could be contributing to the problem and that is a (relatively) cheap fix. Adding a whole house attic fan will also help greatly with ventilation. Again, a relatively inexpensive fix.

Additionally, even with full disclosure of these issues, there is not guarantee a mortgage and insurance company will approve the sale for a new buyer. Remember, any buyer will have to qualify for the mortgage with a home inspection and appraisal, which the insurance company will look at as well. My guess is that no insurance company will insure the house until the mold is taken care of. So selling might not be as easy as you may think unless you have an all cash buyer.



Is your LOC a personal loan or a home equity line? If it is a home equity line you must pay it off at the time of the sale.

We have had attic insulation (1 1/2 storey house) and more roof vents put in. Ice damming has settled for now.

I do want a full gut out....of course I wouldn't dream of putting it on the market without it! I am wondering how a house that has a result of only 4 bedrooms with only ONE bathroom (with no shower) and an unfinished basement) is going to sell. It has ugly windows, and only 2/3 of the house is sided with the old weathered wood clapboard still on the rest of the house. We made the mistake of buying in the winter and not walking all the way around outside. I am leaning to the mold company instead of a DIY job, as dh has lung problems as it is, and I can then have proof it was properly "remediated".

The mold guy was great actually. Gave me a few names for second opinions, like foundation companies. Like I said I am nervous about the weeping tile...we have no sump, only a floor drain with a p-trap in the bottom. We all have a septic in our town for each yard. We can see weeping tile in our window wells, and it extends into the walls/sides of this floor drain. Water seems to flow very well through/into it especially in the spring. Have had the floor drain roto-rooted out once for major roots too.

Eeek. Yes I am defintiely getting some second and third opinions!!!

O, and the LOC, it is a personal one from a bank...nothing borrowed on the mortgage at all.

[canuckgal]

Originally Posted by ChristyMarie

How much water are the dehumidifiers producing?

Is the drywall wet or just crumbly?

Plaster cracking is pretty darn normal and unless you rip out the entire ceiling and redo it the crack is going to reappear. If it is staying in the same place and not spreading then it is just from a house settling over time. I wouldn't be overly concerned about that. Cracks happen as a house settles. Just does. The concern would be a rapidly spreading crack or lots and lots of new ones.

the multitiude of cracks on the ceiling have not reappeared, but over the doorway does.

The drywall is crumbly, very black, not actively wet.

The basement did not smell mouldy at all when we bought, and the previous owners deny a flood.

[SleeplessMommy]

for crack repair over doors, i have had good results with drywall tape (an open selfstick mesh) followed by drywall patch compound.

[SunshineJ]

Most houses will eventually settle and show cracks in the walls. It just happens, and it doesn't necessarily mean anything dire. I guess the question is how much do you rely on the space in the basement as living space? In our past 2 places we HAD to be able to spread out down there. Can you still make the house work for your family if the basement is unfinished? (We do this at our current place with throw rugs, etc.) I'd get a second opinion first and foremost, and then probably gut the basement. I wouldn't waste money on having the drywall and framing taken down by a company personally; I'd check someplace like Craigslist and hire people willing to do general labor, then have the professionals come in and take care of it from there. If you can determine the mold is contained to the basement, and it's a fixable situation at that point, then I'd keep the house and work on it as you go. If nothing else, I'd sit on it for a couple years until things are better economically in the housing market. I also wanted to point out that if down the road you buy a new construction house you'll still have some repair costs. Eventually the hot water heater will need to be replaced, things will eventually break, etc.

[eirual]

I think I'd gut the basement and leave it unfinished until you can do anything more with it if you so choose or find a way to re-finish the upstairs with a shower/bath combo or whatever you feel it needs. If you're feeling overwhelmed with house repairs (windows, siding, renovating, etc.) I'd get them all priced out and tack them onto your financial plan. If you just focus on the basement for now, the rest can wait until you've got your LOC paid off and have saved up the funds to do one project at a time.

If you're not going to sell it as is and would do the gut work regardless, you may as well keep the house and save realtor fees and mortgage penalties.

Some basements should just not be finished. If you were to paint the walls and concrete floor and put down an area rug to make it a little more user-friendly is one thing. To trap in moistures in an already wet basement is quite another.

[AAK]

Originally Posted by eirual

If you're not going to sell it as is and would do the gut work regardless, you may as well keep the house and save realtor fees and mortgage penalties.

This is what I would do too. Not only that, but once everything is gutted, it is easier to see what the real problem is. I think repair estimates would be more accurate at that stage.

So, gut the basement (either yourself or with labor style workers). Students often need side work. Then, attack the whole thing with a bleach solution. I can't remember the ratio required for mold, but it does work. Then, sit back for a while, use the basement unfinished.

I think you would lose too much by selling. Especially since you need to gut it first anyways.

Amy

[CarrieMF]

I am wondering how a house that has a result of only 4 bedrooms with only ONE bathroom (with no shower) and an unfinished basement) is going to sell

In an older home it'd sell fine. Alot of people LIKE unfinished basements as they can do whatever they want with it.

I am leaning to the mold company instead of a DIY job, as dh has lung problems as it is, and I can then have proof it was properly "remediated".

I'd still gut it myself with the proper mask. You'd be saving yourself alot of money to gut it, that's the most work you'll be paying the mold company.

I wouldn't think about fixing things to give it more market value. Fix what needs to be done - the basement gutted & the siding finished. If the bathroom has a tub you can fix a showerhead. Then get out.