Unconditional Parenting has "emboldened" our daughter, not in a good way...?

[eko_mom]

Unconditional Parenting has "emboldened" our daughter, not in a good way...? DH thinks unconditional parenting is a load of you-know-what, but has been going along with it for the most part. Our almost 4.5 y.o. dd is strong and smart. But, she's starting to ignore requests, from both of us, but particularly DH who is from the "do it because I'm the Dad and I said so" school. He thinks the problem is that she has become emboldened by my lack of discipline or consequences...I'm all about Alfie Kohn, but don't really know how to go here.

I don't want to provide a lack of leadership or lack of structure...but I don't want to punish her either. Advice, thoughts, commiseration welcome. But, no criticism, really. I'm doing enough of that for myself.

[NiteNicole]

I think this an age thing. I say this because don't practice UP at all but I'd say in the last two weeks I'm starting to see a lot of ignoring what I'm asking her to do, continuing to do what she's doing when I ask her to stop, and looking me in the eye while doing something I asked her to stop doing. The look on her face is 100%, "What are you going to do about it." I am hearing similar complaints from friends whose kids are similar ages. Even the ones who spank. Even the ones who do time outs. I suspect that somewhere in the mid-fours, this is just a thing they start to do.

I don't have a perfect way of handling it at this point and honestly, this very issue is making me nuts.

[ssh]

My DD is 4 and 4 months old, so maybe we aren't there yet. We did have some rude and bossy behavior a couple of months ago. We talk about what kind of person she wants to be. We talk about how her chosen behavior effects how other people see her. So she tries to choose behavior that goes with the type of person she wants to be. The kind of person she wants to be changes from a super hero to a princess to someone who takes pictures of kangaroos. But she never wants to be a rude or mean person or a bad stranger. The person she wants to be is always a nice, helpful, interesting one that likes to help other people and is liked by others. When she is rude I let her know. All of this seems to be helping her make better choices about behavior. For example if my DD completely ignored me I'd tell her that being ignored hurts my feelings and it's rude to ignore people, that if she doesn't want to do something when she's asked she should say so. This hasn't been one of our issues. If DD doesn't want to do something she says 'no' or "I'll do it later". We were having problems with her shushing us when we were talking, being bossy and demanding and shouting. Usually I talked to her about why the behavior was rude or mean and how I feel when she's doing those things.

She's going through a emotionally fragile thing right now. She gets upset very easily and cries quietly. I hope this phase doesn't last very long ......

[Surfacing]

[simplymother]

Changing parenting styles--no matter what you change to--is always going to have some funny results at first, you know? It takes some getting used to on both sides (you, as parents trying get into a new groove and find the right balance, and your daughter--trying to work out and make sense of this new way of doing things).

That said, Unconditional Parenting isn't about removing all leadership or never setting limits. It's about HOW we do those things--and being aware of how our kids are perceiving our us.

I agree it is an age thing--these early years are all about testing--not necessarily to be "testy" but to figure out where the boundaries are. That could be what she's doing when she ignores your requests. She's no doubt aware there's something new going on, and maybe she's trying to figure it out. Maybe next time you make a request and it goes ignored, you could go to her and put your arms around her and sweetly say, "I sense that wondering if you have to do whatever I say?"

Depending on how much she can express herself at this age, that could open up a good dialogue about where you stand on the issue.

(For us, I've talked to my kids about how parents are here to lead and guide their children, and we often know what's best because we've lived in this world longer and learned a lot of stuff, but we don't know everything about what they should do because we're not them. So if something I say doesn't feel right to them, they can talk with me about it and together we'll always try to come up with something that feels right for everybody.)

But just having a conversation like this, whatever your conclusion is, would be really helpful if the issue is simply ambiguity about how she's expected to act.

Cheers!

--Kate, who has been absent from these forums for entirely too long!

[PreggieUBA2C]

Originally Posted by simplymother

(For us, I've talked to my kids about how parents are here to lead and guide their children, and we often know what's best because we've lived in this world longer and learned a lot of stuff, but we don't know everything about what they should do because we're not them. So if something I say doesn't feel right to them, they can talk with me about it and together we'll always try to come up with something that feels right for everybody.)

This is the conversation I have regularly with our children as well.

I also agree with the rest of Kate's post.

I wanted to add that having a particularly others-centred little person in our home has really illuminated a common but harmful parenting issue. We want our children to be kind, gentle, considerate, to desire the best for others, to be confident, community-oriented and interdependent, etc..., but when we begin the subtle training of those traits into our children, we ignore the very reality that they need to know what the whole spectrum is before they even have the information to make a legitimate choice about it. So saying, it took my older three until they were 3 yrs old to be emboldened enough to buck the expectations of respect and kindness we had for them in our home, and that was very confusing to us, like what is being discussed here now.

Our fourth child is 28 months old and he is so sensitive to the responses and expectations of others that as a young infant, he would try to smile through his crying; it broke my heart, honestly, to see him trying through his own feelings and pain to make me feel better about it. That's not his job!!!

So, from experiencing his personality, our whole family has begun a sort of self-freeing that we didn't even know about before, and that involves our children having the space and support to explore the whole spectrum of feelings and choices that come to them. Our 28 month old will often tell us that he's 'not being nice right now' so we have that as a warning that he's not meeting our expectations for treatment of ourselves. This might seem terrible, but it really works out nicely. We choose how we will deal with ourselves in the face of his not niceness and he learns what the actual consequences for his chosen actions really are (which includes still being loved and supported and that we don't change who we are when he explores his 'dark side').

Now, having grown up in a non-violent home with much love, their particular personalities and dynamics, our children's spectrums really don't extend into truly dangerous actions. Sometimes they are very loud and sometimes they are very irritating- VERY IRRITATING- and I have the place in my home and life to say that, and to be confident in who I am in the face of any choice made by someone else. They need to see that they can choose from a wide range of pleasant and unpleasant options, and I am still who they know me to be; they need to know that they cannot change who I am by throwing their toys at the wall in anger, or screaming words they think are rude every time I want to speak to dp.

The thing is that we've seen that they inevitably do choose the most beneficial behaviours that correspond with the most beneficial perspective, but they really need to have the opprotunity to explore that for real, not just hypothetically from what we tell them. They need to feel like they are being evil, rude, violent, mean, etc.... This is a part of human nature, how ever unpleasant, and I want my children to explore those things in my home, when they are young, before it becomes necessary for them to do so later on in their lives, or not at all, at the expense of true autonomy and interdependence. In essence, I think it stunts their growth to give them set parameters within which they must always exist or there will be imposed consequences.

My home is not full of raging violent maniacs, either. My children are kind, sweet, considerate and loving. Sometimes they are not. We can only make a legitimate choice if we truly know the options, and with young children, they don't have enough life expereince to intuit these things, or to hypothesize adequately to make authentic choices.

At least this is my experience.

As for UP, I think this fits right in for us, because as Kate wrote, unconditional parenting informs our responses and goals in our relationships and doesn't restrict us at all. There simply are so many better and more accessible options for navigating relationships than punishment, that something is bound to be effective for all of us long before punishment would ever enter the picture anyway.

For us, the greater informing principle is authentic living as human beings. When we are out of alignment, we feel a range of unpleasant emotions and can have unpleasant and unsatisfying reactions as a result. This lets us know that we need to examine our thinking or otherwise, and inevitably it comes down to what is an authentically human need and corresponding response, and how do we enact that? Oftentimes it involves personal challenge to re-establish our own human qualities, shedding ideas from society that we've incorporated without realising it, or realising their detriment.

It's sometimes like infinite regression for me because I grew up in an abusive home with addicts. For me, I have had to shed everything and rebuild all of who I actually am in the last 10 years. It is not easy, but it is the most rewarding work I've ever done. To whatever degree we all need to do that and for whatever reasons, I think our culture in general has lost its way and we'd do well to become a whole lot more human than we seem to be at present.

I think what we are discussing here is not really about UP, although it is a great inroad, but rather what does it mean to be a human being and how do we guide other little human beings in their journeys into and through life? In that discussion, issues of control, expectations, societal norms, our own experiences as children, punishment and rewards, relationships, etc..., will all be a part.

So, carry on.

[joanna0707]

Originally Posted by PreggieUBA2C

So, from experiencing his personality, our whole family has begun a sort of self-freeing that we didn't even know about before, and that involves our children having the space and support to explore the whole spectrum of feelings and choices that come to them. Our 28 month old will often tell us that he's 'not being nice right now' so we have that as a warning that he's not meeting our expectations for treatment of ourselves. This might seem terrible, but it really works out nicely. We choose how we will deal with ourselves in the face of his not niceness and he learns what the actual consequences for his chosen actions really are (which includes still being loved and supported and that we don't change who we are when he explores his 'dark side').

wow, this is great, I love the idea of letting the children explore the whole spectrum of feelings and choices and dealing with ourselves in the face of children's not niceness
could you please share with us how you are doing this in more detail? what is your reaction when he decides he doesn't want to be nice?

the smiling thru the tears thing is similar to my DS asking for things nicely when he's upset or tired because I tell him there's no need to yell, it feels so fake sometimes

[eko_mom]

All of you thank you for your thoughtful replies. Kate and Preggie, yes that is just my line of thinking. The philosophy of embracing all the child, and not making her think that she has to be "good" to be an acceptable person, because we all have all kinds of emotions.

Yet, in the moment, say, when dd is uprooting the neighbor's flowers, and won't stop despite your requests, or won't discontinue jumping on the bed and screaming when you are trying to put the baby to sleep, or keeps running away from you in public places when you are trying to leave...what do you do then that is not punitive bodily or emotionally? I find myself getting so angry that I can't think straight...and then I know my own attitude is punitive. Exactly, what words, actions do you take right then?

We have had a pretty good run, no terrible twos or threes, and generally a very kind, thoughtful and sensitive DD, but lately (especially since the birth 10 mo. ago of her brother), chaos. Things got better, but now worse. Could coincide with this week being her first day of going to school on her own? (She's been going to preschool--but me and her infant brother have been accompanying her for the last 6 months until Wednesday.)

Its like I've lost my connection to her sometimes...I look at her and she's gone.

[PreggieUBA2C]

Originally Posted by joanna0707

wow, this is great, I love the idea of letting the children explore the whole spectrum of feelings and choices and dealing with ourselves in the face of children's not niceness
could you please share with us how you are doing this in more detail? what is your reaction when he decides he doesn't want to be nice?

I don't really do anything other than acknowlege them when they are choosing to be 'not nice' or whatever it is. Only ds4 will actually say out loud that he's not being nice right now, whereas the others just launch into something and expect that I'll notice. So for ds4, I just say, "Okay." He will usually then tell me not to talk to him in an angry voice and then I say, "Okay, after this I won't, but it's important to me that I tell you that I love you even when you're not being nice and I'll be ready to talk again when you are."

With the others, it's trickier. My response changes depending on what is happening with them. If they are throwing toys, for instance, in frustration, then I'll ask them to throw toys in their room rather than in the kitchen where they could land in our food/sink/stove/etc..., and if they refuse, then I might cover a pot on the stove, or remove all the food from the table/counter, etc..., and that sometimes means that we will have our meal later than anticipated.

I don't pretend like this is fine with me, and I tell them that their choice to throw toys in the kitchen is inconvenient for me because I had other plans for after our meal and now I will be choosing between serving the meal again or doing what I had planned for afterward since the time is passing either way and there isn't any extra time to make up for now. The three older ones have reconsidered every time I've told them this in situations where it is true, and have made different choices, like going to their room to throw toys, or more often, to change how they are behaving altogether, but not for seeking my approval; I reiterate their present choice as valid, even though they can see that I don't necessarily enjoy it; oftentimes it's pretty neutral for me though because our life is very slow-paced and there are not many constraints on my time, so I am sincerely not put out and they don't have any pressure to conform to my desires whatsoever.

That I am just now doing this is not optimally timed. If they had had the freedom to truly explore this stuff when they were younger, they would already have had a significant set of options by now, so I recognise that in the most ideal situation, my five yr old would have been finished with this stage of exploration when he was 2, if I had not trained so many 'nice' expectations into him then. Now, his exploration would be refined and he'd still be doing hings to test his limits and choices, but perhaps not so frequently doing things that our 28 month old does. So, now we're doing it now instead, and that's how it is for us.

I do see the youngest one resolving these things much earlier and it is a obviously directly related to the real experiences he is having without those 'nice' expectations that his brothers had at his age. I can see all four of them maturing all at once, going through all the stages slammed together and somewhat chaotically because they are trying to synthesize their relatively mature knowledge and understanding with immature emotions. So we're going about it as a crash course to bring everyone up to speed all at once, and that can be chaotic at times, but we are seeing the fruit of our willingness already.

I have a lot of options for my own responsive behaviours too, just like they do. I could start throwing things and screaming, but I don't because I have already determined that this is not the most beneficial response; I could leave the room if I wanted a more peaceful atmosphere and certainly if I thought my safety was compromised; I could ignore it, which I don't usually, unless that is my authentic response- as in what they are doing truly doesn't bother me at all; I could attempt to reason with them, which I do frequently, and more often than anything else; I could try doing something odd and bizarre to catch their attention and help them out of a grump, if that's what they really need; I could offer a solution to their problem if I know of one; etc....

At first, they were testing everything to see if my responses would remain consistent, but now we don't have many issues at all (and that didn't take long either!). They are gaining experiences to rely on so that they can predict with accuracy what would happen if they did xyz, and they have begun to talk to one another about it too, reminding each other of when they did xyz and abc happened. Their reasoning abilities which have always been advanced are now not just skill-wise advanced, but maturing at a very fast pace.

Our five yr old (ds2) is a bit volatile in general right now, and I think it's hormones or something growth-related, because he's very much like a weepy teenager, and I remember ds1 being this way a little earlier, but with similar emotional upheaval. We do a lot of playful parenting with him to help him out of his unprovoked grumps. That did NOT help ds1, though. He wanted to be left alone and would take himself to his room for a cry about once each day for a while. Just when I was beginning to be concerned about its frequency, it resolved and he's been level again ever since.

Myself, I don't pretend I'm feeling any way that I'm not, but I have also grown in my own self-understanding to a point where their behaviour doesn't make or break me. I have my own way of being that can withstand how others are without me wilting. I'm not entangled with their emotions, which has allowed me to be very connected and compassionate with them.

A while ago I could not distinguish my emotions from theirs, and the roller-coaster we were all on as a result was an insecure one overall. I would never have thought of myself as un-connected because I have always had such a deep empathy with my children, but that sort of empathic response was not what they needed and it was unhealthy for me too. This was a result of my own needs not being met in my childhood, and before I recognised it, I was taking what I needed from my children, and was sort of doomed to do that because my needs remained actually unmet, and there's no skipping past that, no matter how well-intentioned.

So, now (sadly in retrospect recognising that I've taken from my dc what my parents were supposed to give me) I am connected, sympathetic, also empathic, but not to the point of complete emptying out of myself like before, and I can be authentically me while they are authentically them and we can work things out as they arise. I am now in a place where I can actually meet their real needs and stop the cycle of deprivation that my children have also now been subject to. I can't change the past, but I can now rebuild with them what we all lost from our background and that is a real freedom!!!

So, what I do is to just be, and they can just be as well, without fear. If there's no risk of losing love or approval or anything else that we hold over one another, even seemingly benignly, in order to coerce behaviours that we prefer from others, then the exploration of our whole selves can be refined and mature naturally.

They are free to be who they choose to be, and I am too. Wherever we find conflicts in that, we can work through those.

This isn't just unconditional parenting to me; it is bigger and informs my whole life and all of my experiences. It is living authentically, and that means that I make my choices and move fluidly through life as others makes theirs too. Conflicts arise, and I do my best to navigate and negotiate if necessary, but never to control, coerce, punish or otherwise demand on others. It's never more immediate than in my relationships with my children and partner, though.

I think that it would be difficult or impossible to be an 'unconditional parent' but a 'conditional person' otherwise. Like in OP's situation, her dp thinks UP us a load of ___, which if it is separate from the rest of his perspective, could not make any sense at all, so he has to decide that either his whole worldview is a load of ___ or UP is, and since UP is new and not integrated, it is the likely target. So, it's always going to come up as issues of alignment, in each situation with every person, which is definitely how it happens for me, and not so much as a set of do's and don'ts and how-to's.

I don't know if that answers your question and I know I went way off-topic, but I hope it is at least heading toward the direction you were intending.

[PreggieUBA2C]

Originally Posted by eko_mom

We have had a pretty good run, no terrible twos or threes, and generally a very kind, thoughtful and sensitive DD, but lately (especially since the birth 10 mo. ago of her brother), chaos. Things got better, but now worse. Could coincide with this week being her first day of going to school on her own? (She's been going to preschool--but me and her infant brother have been accompanying her for the last 6 months until Wednesday.)

Its like I've lost my connection to her sometimes...I look at her and she's gone.

I bet you this is a pretty significant set of reasons for her behaviour to be changing even above and beyond what is healthy for her as a growing and learning child. That's a lot of heavy things to deal with, for anyone.

[Juvysen]

[eko_mom]

Originally Posted by PreggieUBA2C

I don't really do anything other than acknowlege them when they are choosing to be 'not nice' or whatever it is...I reiterate their present choice as valid, even though they can see that I don't necessarily enjoy it;...so I am sincerely not put out and they don't have any pressure to conform to my desires whatsoever.

I aspire. You explain why a certain behavior is undesired without judging the behavior...? You think that being able to explore these behaviors and still being accepted and loved will eventually yield the cessation of the negative behavior? How do you teach them what is acceptable without being unaccepting? Here are some popular issues around here for DH--playing with food, being too loud/energetic/aggressive with the baby or while DH is on the phone, running away or scootering too far ahead on walks...

Originally Posted by PreggieUBA2C

So, what I do is to just be, and they can just be as well, without fear. If there's no risk of losing love or approval or anything else that we hold over one another, even seemingly benignly, in order to coerce behaviours that we prefer from others, then the exploration of our whole selves can be refined and mature naturally.

They are free to be who they choose to be, and I am too. Wherever we find conflicts in that, we can work through those.

This isn't just unconditional parenting to me; it is bigger and informs my whole life and all of my experiences. It is living authentically, and that means that I make my choices and move fluidly through life as others makes theirs too. Conflicts arise, and I do my best to navigate and negotiate if necessary, but never to control, coerce, punish or otherwise demand on others. It's never more immediate than in my relationships with my children and partner, though.

I think that it would be difficult or impossible to be an 'unconditional parent' but a 'conditional person' otherwise. Like in OP's situation, her dp thinks UP us a load of ___, which if it is separate from the rest of his perspective, could not make any sense at all, so he has to decide that either his whole worldview is a load of ___ or UP is, and since UP is new and not integrated, it is the likely target. So, it's always going to come up as issues of alignment, in each situation with every person, which is definitely how it happens for me, and not so much as a set of do's and don'ts and how-to's.

I don't know if that answers your question and I know I went way off-topic, but I hope it is at least heading toward the direction you were intending.

I feel like our whole worldview is so mired in how we were raised, and "didn't turn out that bad" that we just go to those ways of doing things, even though for me they don't feel authentic. And, honestly, my emotional life in particular has been greatly negatively impacted by coercion by my parents. I can't speak for DH. I feel like a big phony imposing sanctions and authority-coercion to "be good." It feels like I am treating dd like an animal not like a person. I am heartened that perhaps this could be a phase, that if handled authentically and allowing dd to explore her darker emotions will even out. If I can weather not only this, but the expectations and judgments of observers like the in-laws, my parents, and DH. Everyone is so sure that my "permissiveness" is the cause of the problems and will eventually lead to serious problems down the road.

Originally Posted by PreggieUBA2C

I bet you this is a pretty significant set of reasons for her behaviour to be changing even above and beyond what is healthy for her as a growing and learning child. That's a lot of heavy things to deal with, for anyone.

I think that the serious problems will come from losing my authentic connection with dd...in fact, I think that's what's happening now. The connection has been disrupted by the introduction of a new baby and the behaviors we are experiencing by dd are the tests. We are failing them by being conditional about our approval...

[joanna0707]

Originally Posted by PreggieUBA2C

Myself, I don't pretend I'm feeling any way that I'm not, but I have also grown in my own self-understanding to a point where their behaviour doesn't make or break me. I have my own way of being that can withstand how others are without me wilting. I'm not entangled with their emotions, which has allowed me to be very connected and compassionate with them.

Self-discovery and understanding is the first and most important step on the way to freedom you are experiencing with your children.
I'm not sure how to get started, how to finally free myself of all those years of coercion and false expectations and in result free my children and just be.
Any advice?

[coffeegirl]

Originally Posted by eko_mom

I aspire. You explain why a certain behavior is undesired without judging the behavior...? You think that being able to explore these behaviors and still being accepted and loved will eventually yield the cessation of the negative behavior? How do you teach them what is acceptable without being unaccepting? Here are some popular issues around here for DH--playing with food, being too loud/energetic/aggressive with the baby or while DH is on the phone, running away or scootering too far ahead on walks...

Personally I think it's crucial to judge the behaviour of our children; it's part of our jobs as parents. Children aren't born with 100% knowledge of how to behave or relate to others or how to control their emotions, you know?

Part of the acting out that your daughter is doing is because she's testing her (and your) boundaries. All children do this, and all children, to some extent, crave limits and structure. They can't put these limits on themselves because they don't know how. That's why we have to do it for them when they're so young. I believe, and I know from personal experience, that this can make them feel secure. And in time they learn to control and regulate their emotions and behaviors for themselves, learning from us. (I reason this out by understanding that the goal of parental discipline is to teach a child self discipline.)

To be honest, some of the tenants of UP seem to me like they could cause a lot of insecurity and anxiety in a child who might simply be looking for clear, firm guidance from their parents.

[PreggieUBA2C]

Originally Posted by eko_mom

I aspire. You explain why a certain behavior is undesired without judging the behavior...? You think that being able to explore these behaviors and still being accepted and loved will eventually yield the cessation of the negative behavior? How do you teach them what is acceptable without being unaccepting? Here are some popular issues around here for DH--playing with food, being too loud/energetic/aggressive with the baby or while DH is on the phone, running away or scootering too far ahead on walks...

Being accepted and loved should be entirely distinct from behaviour, in my perspective. My children really can't do anything to lose those, even if they tried, so they are not choosing their behaviours according to what will guarantee continued love and what will likely not cause its end. Their choices can be more complex and provide greater information for them than just whether or not they're 'in the doghouse' with mummie or worse, no longer loved and accepted. Is it really validly called a choice when so much is at stake if they make the 'wrong' decision?

I think that children are atuned to the responses of their parents and that they know when I don't enjoy what they have chosen, so anything more than my sincere response- given that I am also matured and self-composed and healthy- is a form of punishment in the eyes of the child. I also think that what I perceive as negative behaviour has to be very tightly scrutinised and selected.

I don't think making noise is a negative behaviour, and being unable to quiet down while I'm on the phone isn't either- though my perception of that behaviour may be very negative. If I am on the phone, and my boys are rambunctious, I close myself into another room. My dc really do try to be quiet, but at their ages, only the 6 yr old has the impulse control and awareness that would yeild a truly quiet environment for me talking on the phone, and maybe not when he's in the middle of something loud and energetic.

To use more of your examples, I really think the behaviours you've described are not negative at all, but just normal for young children. Playing with food is only situationally irritating; sometimes playing with food is part of the meal (fondue, self-made pizzas, dips, etc, all seem like play to young children, ime) and other times it's not. We tell our children what sort of meal we're having and we are very lenient with things like mashed potatoes, which really beg to be molded and touched. Peas and other little foods are enjoyable to handle, and we don't find that upsetting either.

Something to consider is that in some cultures, it is rude to use utensils for one's own meal; utensils are only for serving and hands are for eating and feeding one another in ritual-like bliss- for the whole family, adults and children inclusively. I learned that at a friend's home when no cutlery was set out and everyone sat down to feed the person next to him/her with his/her hands.

Regarding running away or being inattentive to us when we're out or walking, is something that for a long time really burned dp. I had read The Continuum Concept and decided that my instincts were not up to snuff. So, I began not looking at my children all the time and using my other senses to know where they were. I also stopped calling after them when I was moving. It took them about five minutes to catch onto this, and that was about 4 yrs ago. I neeeeeevvvvver call my children in a store or out on a walk, unless it's a courtesy because I know they are engrossed in examining something, and then it's just, "_____, we're leaving," and we do; we don't wait.

They catch up immediately and we rarely say anything, but just go about our business and they just come, even when they've run off somewhere; their antennae are very acutely atuned and they can be at the opposite end of a long aisle and the millisecond that I begin to move toward turning the corner, they are already cheerfully hoofing it to catch up. And it's not an anxious thing at all; they love being trusted and having the freedom to explore, and they can do this while I'm doing what I'm there to do. They have personal challenges with this too, to see how far they can go and then return in what amount of time. I don't lose any of my children when we're out and they don't run into the roads or disrupt others.

Originally Posted by eko_mom

I feel like our whole worldview is so mired in how we were raised, and "didn't turn out that bad" that we just go to those ways of doing things, even though for me they don't feel authentic. And, honestly, my emotional life in particular has been greatly negatively impacted by coercion by my parents. I can't speak for DH. I feel like a big phony imposing sanctions and authority-coercion to "be good." It feels like I am treating dd like an animal not like a person. I am heartened that perhaps this could be a phase, that if handled authentically and allowing dd to explore her darker emotions will even out. If I can weather not only this, but the expectations and judgments of observers like the in-laws, my parents, and DH. Everyone is so sure that my "permissiveness" is the cause of the problems and will eventually lead to serious problems down the road.

I think that the serious problems will come from losing my authentic connection with dd...in fact, I think that's what's happening now. The connection has been disrupted by the introduction of a new baby and the behaviors we are experiencing by dd are the tests. We are failing them by being conditional about our approval...

I just wrote about how for generations before our parents, the typical sentiment with regard to raising children was that "my children will have it better than I did" but since our parents' generation, it has changed to, "I survived it, and turned out just fine, so my dc will too." What a HUGE paradigm shift. Rather than desiring to lay a strong foundation upon which our children can grow and live further, higher, better than us, we now think that whatever we survived is fine for them too- that they can pull themselves out the mess too, that they should struggle the way we did because it builds character and work ethic. I think that's ridiculous and cruel.

What then is my role? To make sure they suffer like I did? Given all of human history and this being such a recent sentiment, I am more inclined to trust the genuine desire that is in me, that happens to coincide with that of older generations, that my life will be a foundation for them so that they can spring off of it, and not have to reinvent the wheel that I did. I want them to actually progress from where I am and came from. And even if that doesn't end up happening for them, if I haven't at least made my best effort to prepare them, to set them up, then what was I doing all this time???

This is likely the perspective your inlaws have, and for that reason in my life, I have found it very easy to live as I do in spite of the disdain of others. I know that I am doing things in a way that is completely different than they did, and I expect entirely different results, so their upset and derision isn't really relevant to me. I anticipate it, but I know too much to even consider going backward, and that perspective is a regressive one, no matter how it is expressed or explained; it is not progressive and not healthy, imo.

You know that you are not aligned, which is why you are examining this in your life, so kudos to you for your courage and willingness to examine things and not be satisfied with whatever you have expereinced or are presently surviving. There is so much more to life than survival.

[PreggieUBA2C]

Originally Posted by joanna0707

Self-discovery and understanding is the first and most important step on the way to freedom you are experiencing with your children.
I'm not sure how to get started, how to finally free myself of all those years of coercion and false expectations and in result free my children and just be.
Any advice?

If I tell you what broke the last bit for me, it might not be well-received. I did spend an enormous amount of time reading and thinking and changing behaviours before I came to the point where my parents' behaviours/abuses were just stuck in my psyche; I couldn't shake them. I had already dealt with all of the reactions and triggers I had, but there was lingering shame, and what changed that for me was leaving the church... see? Not really helpful for others, necessarily.

BUT my worldview included that I was deliberately placed in the care of parents to endure their abuse so that something good would eventually come of it through me if only I'd be willing and surrender. When I left christianity, and thereby the doctrine of original sin and the idea that I would grow from my upbringing, I was free to recognise that no god deliberately put me there to learn anything, that their abuse was truly abuse, and that I didn't need to carry the shame I had as if it were a key to something I was supposed to learn, for instance because I would otherwise be arrogant as it was so delicately explained to me.

In the beginning of my self-discovery, I had some definite markers to start with, like being a child of addicts, which led me to finding out what the typical reactions are, and then weeding them out and replacing them with healthy ones through a lot of self-reflection and committment. I also read a lot of books that weren't really intended for healing, but that nonetheless effected healing for me because they helped me to align my thinking and emotions with healthy thinking and emotions and reset the template for myself so that my children wouldn't fall into my template and become addicts themselves (which is a very high likelihood statistically even though I have never been an addict). I read books in philosophy, anthropology and other cross-genre books dealing with similar things. I looooved The Continuum Concept because it solidified in my mind my mother-role and encouraged me to discover my inborn instincts for the first time, and I found they were there and intact, just unused!

I don't know really how someone else could start this journey for themselves other than to go where it leads. My path has been overall very meandering, but at times, was very focussed until I could move on. It took me forever to get through UP because the paradigm shifts necessary to grasp the concepts were sooooo vast and far-reaching that I could really only handle maybe a page per day. I can read 400 pages in a day with retention, to give you an idea of the enormity of thought and change that I had to undergo to read and grasp UP- such a slow pace for me!

Of course, that spurred me onto learning more about more things that I became aware that I was missing too, so I read books and reflected on those things too. Not to be diminished was my deliberate observation of my children too; they provided a lot of clues to me about what I needed to change and learn, as well as what I would now have to help them change because of how they had grown to respond to my unhealthy perspectives.

I spent a lot of time in self-reflection as well, listening to what I was saying and my tone and examining my intentions and their roots. It was huge, and still is, although now it is so much easier! It is like an unravelling so that now when I note something about myself, changing it is like moving a jar in the fridge to put something else in its place; it is routine and since one of the byproducts of my upbringing is a complete lack of nostalgia, I don't miss the thing I am rid of at all. I also have a personality that tends toward very immediate and forever committment to things I value, so I can decide that a behaviour isn't beneficial and then change it right then and forever. My dp doesn't have that ability, and this is much harder for him because of that, but he is still plodding along, doing his best, intermittently backsliding and then returning to his newer understanding and behaviours, and I think that is the more common experience.

I hope you find encouragment and support to go ahead with whatever you want to change! It is worthwhile, which I'm sure you have already determined.

[PreggieUBA2C]

Originally Posted by coffeegirl

Personally I think it's crucial to judge the behaviour of our children; it's part of our jobs as parents. Children aren't born with 100% knowledge of how to behave or relate to others or how to control their emotions, you know?

Part of the acting out that your daughter is doing is because she's testing her (and your) boundaries. All children do this, and all children, to some extent, crave limits and structure. They can't put these limits on themselves because they don't know how. That's why we have to do it for them when they're so young. I believe, and I know from personal experience, that this can make them feel secure. And in time they learn to control and regulate their emotions and behaviors for themselves, learning from us. (I reason this out by understanding that the goal of parental discipline is to teach a child self discipline.)

To be honest, some of the tenants of UP seem to me like they could cause a lot of insecurity and anxiety in a child who might simply be looking for clear, firm guidance from their parents.

I think I do understand where you are coming from and spent a lot of my life acting accordingly, but I've changed my perspective. With my own children and the shedding of my upbringing, I've seen that they are actually wired toward self-regulation, and that when I impose on them how they ought to feel and act, though in the moment it may 'work' in that both they and I feel better that the potential outburst is quelled, in the long run, they don't develop self-regulation strategies at all. What they do develop are mummie-pleasing, approval-oriented behaviours that are not authentic to them. They are so sensitive to my responses and reactions that I don't have to deliberately instill fear into them or impose limitations; their sensitivities to me are deep and they know when I am not happy with their choices.

This is nearly impossible to prevent, and I don't think it is necessary or beneficial to try to do so (because that amount, whatever it is, I think is the natural desire for and reciprocation of attachment), but I do think that whatever natural inclination they have for pleasing me is sufficient, and that it is not beneficial to pile on a bunch of extra in the form of my overtly expressed displeasure derived of my preferences.

I think you are right that children crave and need structure. I give that in abundance to them, but the structure I give is perhaps not the same structure you are referring to here. I don't make a bunch of rules and enforcements for them to follow. I do set my own personal boundaries and I am consistent with those because they are an authentic expression of my true boundaries, not synthetic society-pleasing ones, so I don't have to keep track of them; they are as much as part of me as my personality. I do not allow the degradation of human dignity in my home and will intervene if that is happening. This is admittedly a sort of imposition, but I think it reflects what everyone needs and if someone is not yet able to make that clear, then I am willing to do so on his/her behalf. When it is me, I make myself clear; when t is the baby, for instance, I make it clear on his behalf.

The structure we have in our home is relational, personal, and not at all mechanical or superimposed over our relationships and personal growth. It is hard to explain this without writing a book or experiencing it. Relating to your concern about children needing security and parental judgment to deal with their emotions and self-regulation, when our children experience the initial anxiety of not really being sure how to respond, I am there with them, being a sure support and sometimes even talking through options with them. They don't receive the instant no-growth instruction/imperative that 'structure' often implies, but they are certainly not set adrift or insecure. When they settle on something, the victory is theirs, and the life-experience is immediate and ingrained. If they were not happy with how it turned out, they gained the experience they needed to choose something else next time, and I'm there then too.

In either situation, they were supported and also personally responsible and responsive; this is the only real way to truly self-regulate; so-called self-discipline that comes from internalising the voice and commands of mum and dad is not self-discipline or self-regulation, but programmed or patterned response, and it is effective with dogs and and other loyal pets, and even appears to 'work' with humans, but I do not view it as healthy for human beings. It is a strange mix of Orwellian and Huxlian anti-human ideologies.

I don't think a human being is ever too young to begin the process of its own maturation, and the circumstances, if authentic, that my children experience from birth onward, will mirror or follow the natural curve of their maturation. What I mean is that they will have no dilemmas about tax reporting at age 2, nor will they be stuck in a room with someone who is trying to persuade them to steal shoes from the store. These things may come up in their lives, but they won't until they are actually equipped to handle them. I am in a position to ensure this of course, though, because my family free-learns and that means that we are together most of the time, if not all. In fact it's rare that we are not- and of course that does not mean we are isolated; we do entertain and go places too. Anyway, living authentically really is a whole-life thing, and much of the difficulties that we would otherwise have in regard to raising our children simply do not exist for us because of the choices we've made, and the ones we do have may be very different from those of others.

This maturation is very fluid, and I think that 'structure' as it denotes a mechanical undergirding or framework, is best suited to situations where fluidity is a liability, like in an airport, for instance. Schools and other institutions use it because they cannot handle true fluid human behaviour and experience, being that they are not human or organic in any way. In our family, however, there is ample room and support for just this, and a structure would indeed have to be a synthetic and mechanical imposition; it does not flow freely from our human experience and adds nothing- but even worse, takes away!

With regard to judgment, I think that very little of what a child experiences and chooses in normal circumstances truly exists within the realm of morality, which means that it is rare that any judgment is necessary or called for.

Much of what is considered 'wrong' by parents is really trangression of parental preferences, and many children are punished for this. It is not a moral issue that my child not stand on the table. I don't like it, it is not my preference, and I am happy to share my preference with my children about that- but it is not a moral issue and requires not judgment. Since this is my example, I'll follow it through. We have a large kitchen table- 4'x6'- and two of our children like to sit on it while they are all drawing because it means they can all be close and see what one another is doing. This is important to them and makes a lot of sense; they feel and are separated by sitting ont he benches because of their relative physical sizes. So, the compromise that we made was that the two younger ones may sit on the table when they are drawing, but they may not sit there if there is any food or drink on the table at all.

Because no moral issue was ever presented such as would be common -"but it is a moral issue that my dc don't do as I say when I'm the parent!"- we negotiated a way for all of us to meet our needs and even our preferences! If I had made a rule and enforcement regulations, then I would have changed this into something it really isn't and never need be. I didn't make a rule for them to transgress out of their own perceived need.

If I were to consider something less preference-specific like hitting, for instance, I am still left with it not being truly a moral issue in the experience of a child. As an adult, it has definitely become a moral and ethical issue, but for a child- a young one especially- hitting is a physical manifestation of emotion and not at all in the same category as true violence, which is the moral and ethical category that hitting belongs to for me, being mature and capable of distinguishing between my emotions and my actions. If my conscience were malformed or unformed through some neurological or other disorder, then I'd be in the same situation as the child.

So saying, I don't ignore hitting, but I don't treat it as a moral issue requiring judgment either. When my children hit one another, I intervene first by telling them to stop hitting, then by helping them sort out the emotions and thoughts that they were expressing through hitting that they can now address through talking. I don't ask them politely (as in with a please and thank you) or request that they stop, because I am not really open to a 'no' answer, so I don't pretend that I am. I tell them to stop directly. "Stop hitting immediately."

In this situation, I am not judging, but I am defending the well-being of the person being hit and attempting to assist the hitter in expressing his actual need instead of just hitting, which isn't addressing a real need; nobody needs to hit anyone.

In this situation, I am guiding them, but not judging them. I am judging their behaviour -hitting- as not as beneficial as talking (and hitting crosses over into the well-being of another person who needs security, and I am very willing to enact that for him); though I would call that discernment and not necessarily judgment, although the word use isn't as important to me as the meaning I intend. Also, as I wrote above, I am expressing the need for and eventual self-expressable personal boundaries of the one being hit. Eventually, I won't do that because they will all have matured to a point where they can express their own healthy boundaries.

I hope you see that there is no lack of discipline in my perspective, no permissiveness or laziness; rather I am diligently engaged with my family all day, while today I am nursing a rotten sinus infection and dp has taken over the chores. Wow, if I'd been doing the chores I usually do, I'd not have written all this... I do a lot of chores!!! I've still been in constant engagement with my children though. Huh.

[Juvysen]

I just wrote about how for generations before our parents, the typical sentiment with regard to raising children was that "my children will have it better than I did" but since our parents' generation, it has changed to, "I survived it, and turned out just fine, so my dc will too." What a HUGE paradigm shift. Rather than desiring to lay a strong foundation upon which our children can grow and live further, higher, better than us, we now think that whatever we survived is fine for them too- that they can pull themselves out the mess too, that they should struggle the way we did because it builds character and work ethic. I think that's ridiculous and cruel.

What then is my role? To make sure they suffer like I did? Given all of human history and this being such a recent sentiment, I am more inclined to trust the genuine desire that is in me, that happens to coincide with that of older generations, that my life will be a foundation for them so that they can spring off of it, and not have to reinvent the wheel that I did. I want them to actually progress from where I am and came from. And even if that doesn't end up happening for them, if I haven't at least made my best effort to prepare them, to set them up, then what was I doing all this time???

This is likely the perspective your inlaws have, and for that reason in my life, I have found it very easy to live as I do in spite of the disdain of others. I know that I am doing things in a way that is completely different than they did, and I expect entirely different results, so their upset and derision isn't really relevant to me. I anticipate it, but I know too much to even consider going backward, and that perspective is a regressive one, no matter how it is expressed or explained; it is not progressive and not healthy, imo.

I love this perspective. I need to try and keep that in mind.

[coffeegirl]

Originally Posted by PreggieUBA2C

<snip>
Much of what is considered 'wrong' by parents is really trangression of parental preferences, and many children are punished for this. It is not a moral issue that my child not stand on the table. I don't like it, it is not my preference, and I am happy to share my preference with my children about that- but it is not a moral issue and requires not judgment. Since this is my example, I'll follow it through. We have a large kitchen table- 4'x6'- and two of our children like to sit on it while they are all drawing because it means they can all be close and see what one another is doing. This is important to them and makes a lot of sense; they feel and are separated by sitting ont he benches because of their relative physical sizes. So, the compromise that we made was that the two younger ones may sit on the table when they are drawing, but they may not sit there if there is any food or drink on the table at all.

Because no moral issue was ever presented such as would be common -"but it is a moral issue that my dc don't do as I say when I'm the parent!"- we negotiated a way for all of us to meet our needs and even our preferences! If I had made a rule and enforcement regulations, then I would have changed this into something it really isn't and never need be. I didn't make a rule for them to transgress out of their own perceived need.

Thank you for taking the time to reply. A lot to think about that you wrote. First, one thing that is different that I don't have the hang of yet is the terminology. In some places it seems to me that we're really more on the same page than the previous, explanatory paragraphs you wrote would indicate, unless I'm not understanding the terms correctly. Let me ask about the hitting scenario...I understand you have 4 kids so you're speaking from direct experience.

Originally Posted by PreggieUBA2C

]
So saying, I don't ignore hitting, but I don't treat it as a moral issue requiring judgement either. When my children hit one another, I intervene first by telling them to stop hitting, then by helping them sort out the emotions and thoughts that they were expressing through hitting that they can now address through talking. I don't ask them politely (as in with a please and thank you) or request that they stop, because I am not really open to a 'no' answer, so I don't pretend that I am. I tell them to stop directly. "Stop hitting immediately."

You say you aren't judging the child here, but aren't you if you are essentially 'making' them stop? Yes, you're defending the dignity of the child being hit, but that means you're also necessarily making a judgement that the hitting child is offending the dignity of the child who's being hit. It's not an injurious judgement, it's common sense and it's necessary, you know? That's how I'm seeing it...otherwise, why will you not accept a 'no' answer to the 'stop hitting immediately' command?

Also, what you've described in your post...both the reasoning and the examples....would you describe this as Unconditional Parenting or no?

[mamazee]

I think we're mixing up two different parenting philosophies here. One is Taking Children Seriously, where they don't coerce children in any way, as in a child throwing toys and not making them stop. But there is nothing in Unconditional Parenting that says you can't make the toy-throwing stop in some way, just that you can't use behavioral techniques (punishment, threat of punishment, bribes, rewards) to make it stop. But if a toy is being thrown, there's nothing wrong with saying, "It looks like you're having trouble with this toy. Let's play with something else now." It wouldn't be UP to say, "If you don't stop throwing the toy, no ice cream when we go out later." Or "That toy will have to go in time out until the weekend is over." But I think it's very compatible with UP to say, "Let me know when you're done throwing and you can have this toy back, but it's dangerous to throw this one. You could throw this soft ball instead if you're wanting something to throw."