What Does Your Religion Say Happens to People Before the Founding of Your Faith--or NEver...

[umsami]

So, I was watching a show on PBS last night on Herculaneum (city that was destroyed along with Pompei).... and they were showing some of the beautiful temples and stuff from the city... and it got me to wondering....

What does your religion says happens to people who either existed prior to your faith being founded... or who were never exposed to it... etc.? So, for example, the Native Americans who lived here prior to various Missionaries showing up. Or the Romans and Greeks who existed prior to Christianity (or in the early days and were never exposed to it)... and who for whatever reason did not embrace Judaism... people outside of the Hindu world never exposed to Hinduism....etc.

(Hope I'm making sense.)

[Adele_Mommy]

I am Unitarian Universalist. We believe that the same thing happens after death to all people, all religions, all times. We are not in total agreement as to what that is exactly - some people believe in an afterlife or heaven and others do not. Most UUs admit that we can't really know. But the historical name-giving principle of Universalism is a belief in Universal Salvation - if salvation defined as something that happens after you die (which is by no means the only way to define salvation) does exist, then it applies to all people.

[Bluegoat]

My religion (Anglicanism) generally teaches that we are judged according to the Law we know, as Paul said. Every person has the Law in some form, whether through Revelation or natural reason, and all are bound to that Law.

Aside from that, God will do what he thinks is right and we don't really have access to that. Generally it is not thought that they are barred from salvation.

[cappuccinosmom]

I cannot remember the verse but the Bible says that all mankind is created in the image of God and knows God's laws in their hearts, even if they've never heard them.

Since God is not limited by time or space, I do not think his Salvation is limited either. I don't know how or by what means or at what point everyone is offered the knowledge of salvation through Jesus, but I do believe everyone is.

[mamabadger]

Strictly speaking, we would say there never was a time before the faith existed. Before the Christian Church existed, there were people who worshipped the same God - the God of Israel - back to the time of the first human beings.
As for what happens to those outside that faith, the same thing happens to them as happens to all of us: we eventually die and enter the presence of God. My church teaches that each person, after death, exists as close (not in literal space) to God as he or she is able to. Sometimes the analogy of fire is used, as fire is a symbol for the love of God. One person might find a fire mildly warm at 20 feet away, pleasantly warm at 10 feet, blissful at 5 feet, but then uncomfortably hot at 3 feet, and painful at 2 feet. That person would remain 5 feet away from the fire. A second person might only be able to tolerate being 10 feet away, and a third might find the heat painful unless he is quite distant. Each of those people have found their place in Heaven. Being in the Church is one of the things - but not the only thing - which might help a person to be closer to God after death. Being outside the Church is one of the things - but not the only thing- which might hinder him.

[kcstar]

UU Pagan here, so like Adele I don't believe in any kind of eternal hell or punishment.

I believe there are many ways to God, and I try to encourage any seeker to follow the path that best:
1) nourishes their soul
2) supports living in community with their fellow human beings, and
3) encourages them to care for the world around them (people, flora & fauna, and environment)

One of my teachers pointed out that we could apply the first law of thermodynamics: Energy is never created or destroyed.

So as a Pagan I believe in one Source of life that we see in many different ways. Everything has a spark of that source within them. When things die, that spark returns to the source.

At the moment, I'm inclined to believe the individual spark would perceive that return as a visit to the Summerlands (something like Heaven, where there is no pain, bodies are whole, the weather is always perfect...).

The things that made up the spark start to mix in with the rest of the Source, but it may not always be a "thorough" mix. For various reasons, there may be more "stickiness" to a given soul/spark, so that they MIGHT be reborn with much of the same spirit, perhaps memories, etc.

I figure life here can serve equally well as heaven or hell; a place of reward, or a place to try once again to learn how to play nicely with others. As for which combination people get, it matters less what you believe about God/gods/religion, and more how those beliefs shape your actions.

This concept leaves room for the idea of Boddhisattvas, that some people may choose to return again and again to help other people.

I suppose this also could work with mamabadger's fire analogy, that a soul/spark sufficiently developed would dissolve into the Source (unless otherwise sworn not to?)

[Thao]

Mamabadger, I love that fire analogy!

Like what she said about her religion always existing, Buddhism believes it has always been around. Siddartha Guatama, the man who become the Buddha in approximately 500 BC, was not the first Buddha and will not be the last. There are stories about all of the past Buddhas but I can't remember the how many there have been.

But Buddha is a guide only, not a savior, so he is not essential to what happens to people after death. After death people are reborn into a new life according to the karma they have accumulated. Unless they have extinguished enough of their karma that they can escape the cycle of life and death altogether, then they enter Nirvana. Which I always envision as being something close to the Source that kcstar talks about.

[merpk]

Originally Posted by umsami

So, I was watching a show on PBS last night on Herculaneum (city that was destroyed along with Pompei).... and they were showing some of the beautiful temples and stuff from the city... and it got me to wondering....

What does your religion says happens to people who either existed prior to your faith being founded... or who were never exposed to it... etc.? So, for example, the Native Americans who lived here prior to various Missionaries showing up. Or the Romans and Greeks who existed prior to Christianity (or in the early days and were never exposed to it)... and who for whatever reason did not embrace Judaism... people outside of the Hindu world never exposed to Hinduism....etc.

(Hope I'm making sense.)

Not getting the question. What should happen to them?


Though thinking about it, perhaps it's just that we're not talking from the same paradigm. If I'm understanding the question now, am imagining that your question is only relevant to religions that teach that theirs is the only right way to the Divine/"Heaven," or that all people must/should eventually convert to that religion. Since Judaism doesn't teach that/hold that way, so the question doesn't apply to it.


Judaism teaches that there are different ways to G!d for different peoples. Judaism is the right way for Jews. Other religions are the right way for other peoples. So it wouldn't be relevant to any other people, whether or not Judaism existed when they were or weren't around.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by merpk

Not getting the question. What should happen to them?


Though thinking about it, perhaps it's just that we're not talking from the same paradigm. If I'm understanding the question now, am imagining that your question is only relevant to religions that teach that theirs is the only right way to the Divine/"Heaven," or that all people must/should eventually convert to that religion. Since Judaism doesn't teach that/hold that way, so the question doesn't apply to it.


Judaism teaches that there are different ways to G!d for different peoples. Judaism is the right way for Jews. Other religions are the right way for other peoples. So it wouldn't be relevant to any other people, whether or not Judaism existed when they were or weren't around.

I think in this context, the question would be, "what is God's plan for non-Jews? Is there one? Is God the God of non-Jews as well?" And perhaps, "How are Jews meant to relate to non-Jews with regard to the answers to these questions?" And if you are of the opinion that there are many possible paths "Are there any paths that are not good/appropriate/true?"

[merpk]

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

I think in this context, the question would be, "what is God's plan for non-Jews? Is there one? Is God the God of non-Jews as well?" And perhaps, "How are Jews meant to relate to non-Jews with regard to the answers to these questions?" And if you are of the opinion that there are many possible paths "Are there any paths that are not good/appropriate/true?"

Huh.

Well, I think in this context, the answer would be, "G!d's plan for non-Jews is between G!d and the non-Jews." And the Jewish view is that G!d is the G!d of the universe. And that "Jews relate to non-Jews with regard to these answers as if these answers are the non-Jews' business and not the Jews'."

And since the Jews are generally of the opinion that each people has its own path to G!d, and since their path is theirs and not ours, what khutzpah would it be on my part to judge how other people deal with their own spirituality.



If there's a Jew that has a different opinion, they're free to it. But as a general rule, that's the Jewish view.




There are the 7Mitzvot Bnei No'akh, which tradition teaches is a set of laws given by G!d to Noakh (Noah) for all of humanity, aka "the Noahide laws." Am no expert in their meaning, and some of the definitions as per Wikipedia are more extreme than I was taught, so ... Maybe that's what you're after? But they don't really answer the question ...

[mamabadger]

Originally Posted by merpk

Well, I think in this context, the answer would be, "G!d's plan for non-Jews is between G!d and the non-Jews." And the Jewish view is that G!d is the G!d of the universe.

This is a little puzzling. You seem to be saying that the God worshipped by the Jews is the one and only true God of the universe. In that case, the answer to Bluegoat's question, "Is God the God of non-Jews as well?" would have to be yes, wouldn't it?

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by mamabadger

This is a little puzzling. You seem to be saying that the God worshipped by the Jews is the one and only true God of the universe. In that case, the answer to Bluegoat's question, "Is God the God of non-Jews as well?" would have to be yes, wouldn't it?

It would also suggest that anything that non-Jews believed about god that was contradictory to what he revealed about himself to the Jews was incorrect.

However, I think perhaps the point was that the Jews don't really have an interest in what non-Jews think, or about their relationship with God is. I am not sure that is really the case, since I have seen the question discussed among Jewish people/thinkers, but that seems to me the gist of the post.

[merpk]

Originally Posted by mamabadger

This is a little puzzling. You seem to be saying that the God worshipped by the Jews is the one and only true God of the universe. In that case, the answer to Bluegoat's question, "Is God the God of non-Jews as well?" would have to be yes, wouldn't it?

Yes, but.

Meaning, yes, but the nonJews' relationship with/to that G!d is entirely their business.

The OP's question, what does "our religion" say happens to people etc., etc., or those never exposed to our faith, presupposes that my faith wants other people to be part of that faith. It doesn't. Judaism isn't interested in converts and isn't interested in the whole world being Jewish at all.

The OP's question comes from a Christian and Muslim worldview, and it presupposes that worldview, which wants to create a world of converts and/or assumes a supremacy over other religions. So it's a bit of a paradigm shift to look at it from a Jewish worldview.




As far as I know, the Hindu belief system is similar to the Jewish one in that respect, accepting that all others have their own spiritual paths and not demanding conversions, etc. Can't speak to others at all. Maybe this is a thing unique to Christianity and Islam.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by merpk

Yes, but.

Meaning, yes, but the nonJews' relationship with/to that G!d is entirely their business.

The OP's question, what does "our religion" say happens to people etc., etc., or those never exposed to our faith, presupposes that my faith wants other people to be part of that faith. It doesn't. Judaism isn't interested in converts and isn't interested in the whole world being Jewish at all.

The OP's question comes from a Christian and Muslim worldview, and it presupposes that worldview, which wants to create a world of converts and/or assumes a supremacy over other religions. So it's a bit of a paradigm shift to look at it from a Jewish worldview.




As far as I know, the Hindu belief system is similar to the Jewish one in that respect, accepting that all others have their own spiritual paths and not demanding conversions, etc. Can't speak to others at all. Maybe this is a thing unique to Christianity and Islam.

Typically Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism are considered to be proselytizing religions. All see themselves as universal in that they are meant to be an answer for all people. In the West we often don't notice this about Buddhism, but its historically been a big factor in why it has spread around, and even why so many teachers came to the West.

The other "big" religions, Judaism and Hinduism, don't necessarily seek to convert people. However, that is not the same as not having an opinion on what happens to them or their relationship with god. Hindus think the same laws of reality apply to non-Hindus, for example. Non-Hindus are reincarnated, subject to karma, and so on, because Hindus believe that is the nature of reality. But because they see many expressions of the Divine Nature as a good thing, and believe that there are a variety of paths, and that everyone will take many reincarnations to improve themselves, there is no real call to convert people.

I haven't read much modern Jewish thought, but I have read some medieval Jewish thought. And it seems to me that it considered God to be the God of all, and worship directed to false gods, by anyone, to be a negative thing. However, I know Jewish philosophy changed in focus after that period.

[mamabadger]

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

The other "big" religions, Judaism and Hinduism, don't necessarily seek to convert people. However, that is not the same as not having an opinion on what happens to them or their relationship with god.

Exactly. Usually people/religions which say "my faith is right for me, others' faith is right for them" do not believe in an absolute truth, or that they worship the one true God. It is an odd combination.

To look at it another way, what if a Jewish person left his religion and began to worship a different deity? Would that be a bad thing in any way? Then again, suppose a polytheist did convert and began to worship the God of Israel. Would that be a good thing for him, or would it be wrong or pointless because he was not Jewish to begin with? Would God be happy the man stopped worshipping false gods, or does He only care whether Jews do so?

[merpk]

Originally Posted by mamabadger

Exactly. Usually people/religions which say "my faith is right for me, others' faith is right for them" do not believe in an absolute truth, or that they worship the one true God. It is an odd combination.

That's *not* what Judaism says ("my faith is right for me, others' faith is right for them") and not what I typed upthread. Judaism says, Judaism is right for Jews; others' faith is right for them.

It's not so individualistic as you've interpreted it. It's very specific.

Originally Posted by mamabadger

To look at it another way, what if a Jewish person left his religion and began to worship a different deity? Would that be a bad thing in any way? Then again, suppose a polytheist did convert and began to worship the God of Israel. Would that be a good thing for him, or would it be wrong or pointless because he was not Jewish to begin with? Would God be happy the man stopped worshipping false gods, or does He only care whether Jews do so?

Read the paragraph over this, it answers the question.

[klg47]

Latter Day Saints (Mormons) believe that everyone who dies without the LDS gospel will get a chance to accept it after they die.

[jeminijad]

This is very interesting, because I was raised in a Christian sect that very much held that Christianity (and specifically their take on it) was the Truth, and the only truth. We were taught and believed that we were the only true Church/organization, and that anyone who had been exposed to our beliefs and rejected them would not reach salvation.

We were taught that those prior to Christ, and those never exposed to him, were probably going to receive grace because they never had a chance to serve him. God was merciful.

I had been under a vague impression that other monotheistic religions were the same. Apparently, I was wrong.

[Thao]

We were taught that those prior to Christ, and those never exposed to him, were probably going to receive grace because they never had a chance to serve him. God was merciful.

I grew up in a church that taught the same thing. Later on, I realized that if one really believes this, it means that one should avoid proselytizing at all costs. Because before a missionary goes into some remote village somewhere where the people have never heard of Jesus, chances are 100% of the people are going to get into heaven because they never had the chance to choose. But once the gospel has been preached, only those who convert will get into heaven and the others who choose to retain their indigenous religion (usually a majority) will going you-know-where. So spreading the Good News actually sends more people the wrong way. Go figure.

[genifer]

What Does Your Religion Say Happens to People Before the Founding of Your Faith--or NEver Exposed to Your Faith?

The religion that I 'belong' to says a lot of different things about it, which makes me think there is a bit of confusion on the subject. *I*, otoh, dont know precisely how to interpret what my Holy Book teaches on the subject. Im certainly not going to go by what the adherants of my faith say about it bc of all the aforementioned confusion on the subject. Im in the process of figuring this one out. Maybe one day Ill be able to tell you what *I* believe the bible says about it.