What Does Your Religion Say Happens to People Before the Founding of Your Faith--or NEver... - Page 2

[mntnmom]

Another Universalist here. :hello As a Quaker, we talk about the "inner light" or "divine spark", that of God within you. Very similar to Buddhist/Hindu thought.
I spent many years as a Euro-centric pagan, and still lean that direction. I think for the most part they have a similar view as Judaism, though they tend not to believe in one universal God. Everyone has their own covenant with their deity, and that is what they are judged by. I have no way of knowing what agreements another person has made, so it's really not my business. Or my job to convert them!

[DarkPassenger]

Originally Posted by Thao

... I realized that if one really believes this, it means that one should avoid proselytizing at all costs. Because before a missionary goes into some remote village somewhere where the people have never heard of Jesus, chances are 100% of the people are going to get into heaven because they never had the chance to choose. But once the gospel has been preached, only those who convert will get into heaven and the others who choose to retain their indigenous religion (usually a majority) will going you-know-where. So spreading the Good News actually sends more people the wrong way. Go figure.

I always wondered this too. I always wondered how Christian missionaries decided it was a good thing to do.

And as far as my answer, I agree with merpk. I am also Jewish and that is what I believe as well.

[Shami]

The reason Christian missionaries go out to tell the 'good news' is because this is what Jesus said to do in Matt 28:19. I think it says something in Hebrews like, how will they believe if they don't hear? Can't remember exactly.
But, for anyone who hasn't heard, Romans chapter 1 says that God has been clearly seen since the creation of the world, even the invisible things of Him.

I am not sure how God did this or does this. I think that God only holds us responsible for what we have seen of Him based on what He has revealed to us. In the Old Testament, God spoke through the prophets. The prophets spoke about the Christ who was to come. God also used certain people to change the ages, like Moses, and Samuel.

I said this in another thread, sorry for the repeat, but I think it is a common misconception that people, both Christian and non Christian, have in thinking that the Bible says those who don't believe will burn in some sort of torment forever. There are some who believe that they will live in regret, as the rich man (story of Lazaras and the rich man in Luke) did for the 1000 years, and then will perish (cease to exist).

baby crying have to go now

Romans 1

19 Because that which is known of God is manifest within them, for God manifested it to them.

20 For the invisible things of Him, both His eternal power and divine characteristics, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being perceived by the things made, so that they would be without excuse;

[CherryBomb]

Well, normally I don't try to make decisions on who's going to Heaven and who's not, because it's not my place. But generally speaking, traditional Catholic thought was that when Jesus descended to the dead, He freed all righteous people from the bounds of Hell, which answer the "what happened to those who existed before He came." As for those who have not heard the Gospel in present times, obviously they can't judged the same as those who have. That doesn't mean they get a free pass into Heaven, but you can't reject something you've never known. I don't know exactly how God will deal with them, but it will be Just and Merciful.

[Shami]

Originally Posted by CherryBomb

Well, normally I don't try to make decisions on who's going to Heaven and who's not, because it's not my place. But generally speaking, traditional Catholic thought was that when Jesus descended to the dead, He freed all righteous people from the bounds of Hell, which answer the "what happened to those who existed before He came." As for those who have not heard the Gospel in present times, obviously they can't judged the same as those who have. That doesn't mean they get a free pass into Heaven, but you can't reject something you've never known. I don't know exactly how God will deal with them, but it will be Just and Merciful.

I hadn't thought of this as related to all people who were before Christ as well as all believers. I went back and read the context of this verse and the verse before is talking about each one being given grace according to the measure of Christ. Then after that verse it speaks of Christ giving gifts to the body of Christ, apostles, shepherds, prophets, evangelists. Not trying to contradict what you understand this verse to mean...just pointing to another possible interpretation. It seems to me that 'Christ led the captives' meaning the ones who have believed in Him and had already become a part of the Body of Christ.

I also 'think' that God can only judge that which we have been shown by Him. Like Cherrybomb said, you can't reject something you have never known.
I am struggling with this right now. Before I 'knew' the Lord Jesus in a personal way, I had 'heard' of Him. If I had died before I really 'knew' Him, would I have been one who perishes? If a bunch of people had told me about Him and I thought I had considered Him (meaning I thought I was seeking God, whoever God is), and then determined that Buddhism was the way, would I be 'rejecting' Him? At the time, I didn't feel like I was rejecting Him because I didn't know Him, yet. And there is a verse when the Lord Jesus told Peter that flesh and blood does not reveal it to you, but the Father reveals it. Furthermore, when I tell someone about the Lord Jesus, I don't feel any pressure that I have to get them to believe, rather it is the Father who will do that in His time.
But, now, if I rejected Him, I believe that would rest on my shoulders for sure because I really do know Him.
I dunno...this is kind of weighing on me right now.

[newcastlemama]

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

My religion (Anglicanism) generally teaches that we are judged according to the Law we know, as Paul said. Every person has the Law in some form, whether through Revelation or natural reason, and all are bound to that Law.

Aside from that, God will do what he thinks is right and we don't really have access to that. Generally it is not thought that they are barred from salvation.

I generally agree with this.

Romans 2:14-16

14For when Gentiles, who do not have the law,(A) by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the work of the law is(B) written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16(C) on that day when,(D) according to my gospel, God judges(E) the secrets of men(F) by Christ Jesus.

Romans 4:15

15For(B) the law brings wrath, but(C) where there is no law(D) there is no transgression.

Romans 2:11-12

11For(A) God shows no partiality.12For all who have sinned(B) without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

This was/is a big stuggle for me as a Christian so I have thought a lot about this topic. It also comforts me to know that God is the most just and loving being in all the universe. (He IS love!)

Jen

[Shami]

Thanks Newcastlemama, I went back and read those chapters and it helped me a lot.
It seems like before the law, means before God gave the ten commandments, people were not held responsible because 'if no law, then no transgression' applies. Then once the law was given, people under the law were responsible for keeping the law meaning there is not grace? just pull yourself up by your boot straps and do the right thing according to law?
The Bible says that Abraham was accounted righteous because of his belief in God. Those who believe in Christ have Christ as our righteousness.

Still not sure what all of this means for the afterlife, and maybe we just won't know until...

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by Shami

Thanks Newcastlemama, I went back and read those chapters and it helped me a lot.
It seems like before the law, means before God gave the ten commandments, people were not held responsible because 'if no law, then no transgression' applies. Then once the law was given, people under the law were responsible for keeping the law meaning there is not grace? just pull yourself up by your boot straps and do the right thing according to law?
The Bible says that Abraham was accounted righteous because of his belief in God. Those who believe in Christ have Christ as our righteousness.

Still not sure what all of this means for the afterlife, and maybe we just won't know until...

But remember, God gives everyone the Law in some form. Those who didn't get it directly, like the gentiles, still had natural reason which revealed to them many of God's principles. All societies have moral codes, and they are actually pretty similar. A pagan who knew murder to be wrong and murdered was breaking Gods law as much as a Jew who murdered was.

[Shami]

Thanks Bluegoat.
It seems like God has his bases covered, so to speak. He accounted for all kinds of people from every part of the earth. The question still remains. What happens to them after they die? Will they be judged based on what law they fall under, whether it's the natural law, Moses law, or the law of the Spirit of life (Rom 8), and how obedient they have been to the law which they have seen?

[newcastlemama]

Shami, my heart gets really heavy with these types of thoughts and questions.
Hopefully there is another mama who knows more here than I do to answer your questions better, but I just wanted to show support. Something I do know is that God knows about everyone's life--where and when they are born, what they know, their thoughts and actions, and heart--and He will do what is just. I know it seems to simple for me to say that but that is always what my dh tells me when I face this.

[Shami]

Newcastlemama
I really appreciate your post. I read most of Romans again and it helped a lot. I think this thread is helping me see that God is God and can do whatever He wants. Also, He is full of mercy and compassion, I do know that, and fully expect Him to judge with mercy and compassion. I just find it very hard to answer these types of questions because I want everyone to know how loving God is, but honestly I feel like people can't see His love because of certain passages in the Bible, which I cannot explain. Sigh.

I used to think that the God in the Bible seemed mean and vengeful until I got to know Him personally. Maybe God is just misunderstood and that's how it will always be. Anyway, thanks for the encouraging words NCM.

[genifer]

He is full of mercy and compassion, I do know that, and fully expect Him to judge with mercy and compassion.

Ive also learned thru personal experience that we can fully trust His judgement, and that our judgements are sometimes based on things we percieve rather then the truth He knows.

This type of question, until very recently, used to really trouble me. Maybe Im a fast learner or something, but in a way I kinda 'get it'... otoh, I dont get some of it, but what I dont get, I understand that God is not mean and vengeful... that He IS merciful... but also just. And when it talks about judging and God's standards, I get the feeling that we're expected to know the answers to these questions bc we declare to be christians, but I think we're just learning the answers to these questions. I know what christianity or christians before me said or how they interpreted scripture, but its gotta become real understanding to me in order for me to go out and teach it to someone else, ykwim? Its gotta become 'truth understood' within me before I can give an answer to anyone else... When it comes to judging another person's soul... I have no place to do that. The bible says something about the saints judging after this age is over, but I dont have the qualifications, as of yet, to do any sort of judging... Im in the process of gaining understanding and learning the wisdom of God as he teaches me the things He believes I should know.

Ive always said there were certain things I do understand or already believe to be truth....

1) is there a God?

Yes.

2) Do I know who Jesus Christ is and what He did on the cross, what he accomplished, why he had to go to the cross?

Yes.

3) Is heaven real?

Yes

4) Is Hell real?

Yes, but beyond that (as far as Hell is concerned) I dont know much about it, except to say what someone's already said here, that its a rather unpleasant place. Something about eternal banishment from God's presense... and other unpleasantries...

5) Will there be people who do end up in Hell?

Yes. I believe so, sadly. The 'who' and 'why' are details Im not privy to.

[christianmomof3]

Originally Posted by merpk

Judaism teaches that there are different ways to G!d for different peoples. Judaism is the right way for Jews. Other religions are the right way for other peoples. So it wouldn't be relevant to any other people, whether or not Judaism existed when they were or weren't around.

Originally Posted by merpk

Well, I think in this context, the answer would be, "G!d's plan for non-Jews is between G!d and the non-Jews."

I was raised in the reform Jewish religion, and although I am now a born again Christian, I think I understand and agree with this Jewish viewpoint still.
As far as I was taught, the Jewish religion is concerned with how we live our life now and has very little if anything to say about what may or may not happen after death.
The whole what will happen to us after we die stuff is still really odd to me.
Because the way I see it, who knows?
Even as a Christian, I live my life for now, not for after I die.
I enjoy the Lord and try to live Him and grow in His life and express Him and His love to others now. I have no idea what happens after we die and for all I know it could just be nothing. I do know that in the Bible Paul said he hoped to be with the Lord after he died, but other than that, the Bible really does not give any details about any afterlife.

Originally Posted by Shami

I also 'think' that God can only judge that which we have been shown by Him. Like Cherrybomb said, you can't reject something you have never known.
Before I 'knew' the Lord Jesus in a personal way, I had 'heard' of Him.

I agree that we are only held responsible for what we know. Before I became a Christian I thought they had 3 gods - a father, son and ghost apparantly (I was thinking casper for some reason).
I rejected Christ but really what I was rejecting was my preconceived concepts about who and what He was.

Originally Posted by Shami

God is God and can do whatever He wants. Also, He is full of mercy and compassion, I do know that, and fully expect Him to judge with mercy and compassion.

[annethcz]

Originally Posted by Thao

I grew up in a church that taught the same thing. Later on, I realized that if one really believes this, it means that one should avoid proselytizing at all costs. Because before a missionary goes into some remote village somewhere where the people have never heard of Jesus, chances are 100% of the people are going to get into heaven because they never had the chance to choose. But once the gospel has been preached, only those who convert will get into heaven and the others who choose to retain their indigenous religion (usually a majority) will going you-know-where. So spreading the Good News actually sends more people the wrong way. Go figure.

I was raised in a protestant Christian church, and I remember thinking the same thing as a child. It just didn't seem to make sense to me.

[christianmomof3]

oh, and I was going to ask, what is the POV of the Muslim religion on that one? What are their life after death beliefs and is their evangelism based on that or something else?

[Shami]

Originally Posted by christianmomof3

I agree that we are only held responsible for what we know. Before I became a Christian I thought they had 3 gods - a father, son and ghost apparantly (I was thinking casper for some reason).
I rejected Christ but really what I was rejecting was my preconceived concepts about who and what He was.

This! You worded this very well. This is what I was feeling. It was all of my history with Christians, sorry to say, that hindered my believing. Strange, huh?
The way some, not all, represented God was a real turn off for me. Mainly my extended family, not my immediate family, tried to scare me into believing that I would go to hell. God is not about fear. Actually, now I know that God is love, and Satan is the source of fear. So, was I rejecting Christ, or was I rejecting a misrepresentation of Christ? I believe it was the latter of the two.

[Shami]

Originally Posted by christianmomof3

oh, and I was going to ask, what is the POV of the Muslim religion on that one? What are their life after death beliefs and is their evangelism based on that or something else?

I hope someone will address this because I only know the extreme side that I hear in the media.

[Summertime Mommy]

In Islam, people of the book and anyone who does good, believes in one god, and the last day are allowed into heaven, this is stated in the Qur'an.For others, it is generally believed that all people will be judged on what was revealed to them, and you cannot be judged for what you do not know.