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"The perpetual victim"... vs Bullying?

post #1 of 37
Thread Starter 
I have an old friend/ex daycare family. They are having problems with the oldest child in school (third grade) and want my advice.

But, my opinion is, this little boy needs to stop making himself a victim.

As a small child, he cried all the time, over everything. If he didn't get to open the door, he cried. If he didn't get to the end of the sidewalk first, he cried. If he didn't get the bike he wanted, he cried.

On the other hand, he was extremely large for his age, and growing at an amazing pace, which made him more clumsy, and he was ALWAYS last to everything because it was impossible for him to outrun the smaller more agile kids. So, I set things up in such a way, that sometimes, he got there first. I thought it was extremely fair.

Now, he's in third grade, and having the same issues, only he never wins. He's still very, very tall. He's the size of most 7th graders. He's still slower than the smaller more agile kids. He still cries all. day. long.

The kids at his school MIGHT possibly be taking advantage of how easy it is to make him cry. But, maybe they aren't trying to MAKE him cry... but, he's just crying. Nobody can really tell. He sits on the floor in the halllway and claims "they cut" when they are in line at the fountain. But, no adult ever sees this. The other kids say "No, we just got here first". Clearly, though, they enjoy making him cry.

Two other issues are..

1. He still uses a Gerber Sippy cup in the car on the way to school. Kids have seen him with this and tease him about this, and once, he forgot he was holding it and got out of the car with it.

2. He wears glasses, and when he goes out to the playground, he puts goggles on over them. The kids don't actually TEASE him about this, but they ask him why he has them. He has them because basketball players have them, and he likes them. The kids shrug and walk away.

To me, this isn't really bullying, as much as the other kids just not having anything in common with him. He's the odd duck. They don't dislike him, but they seem to like how easy it is to get a good tantrum out of him. Nobody sticks up for him. They just watch him melt down.

The school is observing like crazy, but they CLAIM, they don't see where this is bullying by the other kids. They are calling it the "Perpetual victim syndrom" or something like that.

*Yes, he has a high IQ and is very bright, but not gifted.. they have tested him for the gifted school in the district.. he doesn't fall into that either* He is in the advanced program within his school though.
post #2 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by nextcommercial View Post
He still cries all. day. long.
I wonder if there is something off in the family dynamic. How parents respond to crying has an impact on how much kids do it. I'm wondering if family counseling (with the counselor retraining the parents) would help.

If that isn't the main issue, I'm curious if the child has something off in their development -- asperger's, a mental illness, etc. that makes everything more stressful. Has he ever had a complete evaluation? Undiagnosed special needs can make childhood a bit of a nightmare, and mild special needs can look like bad behavoir or poor parenting.

Even if there is an underlieing problem, the parents could most likely improve the situation by how they handle things.

Quote:
1. He still uses a Gerber Sippy cup in the car on the way to school. Kids have seen him with this and tease him about this, and once, he forgot he was holding it and got out of the car with it.
Why? Is there a reason the parents haven't tossed it out and given the kid a water bottler?

Quote:
. He wears glasses, and when he goes out to the playground, he puts goggles on over them. The kids don't actually TEASE him about this, but they ask him why he has them. He has them because basketball players have them, and he likes them.
this is part of what makes me wonder if he has some sn. The goggles are more important to him than blending. While no one wants their child so hung up on fitting in that they act like a sheep, there is a happy medium and kids who can't find it end up with no friends and getting teased.

Quote:
The school is observing like crazy, but they CLAIM, they don't see where this is bullying by the other kids.
A little teasing is really normal. I have 1 sn kid and 1 typical kid. My typical kid says that all kids get occasional jibes about something they are wearing or their hair or something, and it's really a matter of how they react to that determines what happens next. Kids who can turn it into a joke or ignore it do fine, kids who take it to heart don't.

This little guy sounds like he needs some social skills and copying skills. How are the parents handling this stuff? What do they same to him about it? Do they feel he needs to learn to deal better with his peers, or do they feel that every one should walk on eggshells? Because he still has a sippy cup, I question if the have age appropriate expectations for him at all. He is a cry baby, and he drinks from a baby cup. It's odd.
post #3 of 37
Thread Starter 
I've always wondered about the aspergers. When he was little, he had one new obsession every two years. Starting with trains. It was all he could talk about or think about. Everything that we talked about had to be turned around to a talk about trains. Then, it was rescue heroes, then aliens, etc. He can retell a real life story perfectly now. But, at one time, if you asked "How did you hurt your arm?" He would say "I fell off a train" Or "An alien tried to bite it and I ran away, then fell".

His parents handle it by calling the school. Or going back inside to talk to the teacher. Every time. Mom gets very, very emotional. Which I understand. It's the most painful thing in the world to see your child hurting.

The sippy cup, is because "He needs more milk, and he likes it in a sippy cup".

I asked about the sippy cup too. I actually got mad at them for setting him up like that. Especially since there are coffee cups that work really nice for the car, and look kindof cool too.
post #4 of 37
Thread Starter 
Also, I can't actually suggest special needs, since I am just the friend. I wonder if the school hasn't suggested it???

They tested him for the gifted school though. Wouldn't someone have wondered about special needs then?
post #5 of 37
There was a really good post here:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...725&highlight=

There are some great resources here to deal with teasing. I would strongly suggest looking at those and giving those to mom and dad. If the family could work on this, life might be a lot happier.

The bottom line is that 'reactive' kids get teased and bullied more. Is it right? No. Is it OK? No. But, there is something that these kids can do -- they can learn to control their reactions and thereby reducing the teasing. If they don't give the perpetrators the thrill of the reaction, they'll get bored and go away.

I'm working really hard with ds on it. It's hard, but it is paying off.
post #6 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnS6 View Post
There was a really good post here:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...725&highlight=

There are some great resources here to deal with teasing. I would strongly suggest looking at those and giving those to mom and dad. If the family could work on this, life might be a lot happier.

The bottom line is that 'reactive' kids get teased and bullied more. Is it right? No. Is it OK? No. But, there is something that these kids can do -- they can learn to control their reactions and thereby reducing the teasing. If they don't give the perpetrators the thrill of the reaction, they'll get bored and go away.

I'm working really hard with ds on it. It's hard, but it is paying off.
Oh. thank you. I can easily send these links to her and give my opinion.
post #7 of 37
That does send off Aspie-bells to me. Especially the obsession with trains.
post #8 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by nextcommercial View Post
I've always wondered about the aspergers. When he was little, he had one new obsession every two years. Starting with trains. It was all he could talk about or think about. Everything that we talked about had to be turned around to a talk about trains. Then, it was rescue heroes, then aliens, etc. He can retell a real life story perfectly now. But, at one time, if you asked "How did you hurt your arm?" He would say "I fell off a train" Or "An alien tried to bite it and I ran away, then fell".

His parents handle it by calling the school. Or going back inside to talk to the teacher. Every time. Mom gets very, very emotional. Which I understand. It's the most painful thing in the world to see your child hurting.

The sippy cup, is because "He needs more milk, and he likes it in a sippy cup".

I asked about the sippy cup too. I actually got mad at them for setting him up like that. Especially since there are coffee cups that work really nice for the car, and look kindof cool too.
Is he a calf? I know milk isn't a terrible thing to drink by a long chalk, but i think having a sippy at SCHOOL (or even en route to school) to increase milk intake is the sort of thing you'd do with a 2yo on the way to daycare, not a 7 year old.

When is his birthday? Can you buy him a super-cool bottle or coffee mug for the car (one featuring his favourite current obsession?). If he is aspie then he's going to have a hard time, whatever is done. My dad and DH are both aspie and really, the obsession feels safer than social acceptance ever can, so it's always going to win. I agree working on his reactions could really help him though.
post #9 of 37
I have a vitim kid. every day she comes home from school and tells me how so and so hit/bumped/brusied her whatever. it is not one kid bullying her. it is just normal kids playing and being a little clumsy. and she is extremely clumsy. and she is the baby and is used to be babied (my bad) and this is a way for her to get the attention she preceives she islacking but is not.

You pointed out mom was really emotional. if she is all pouting around, crying foul is it really a surprise her son is? it sounds like they are also really enabeling this. I mean they still let him walk around with a sippy cup. really now.

I have no tolerence for my dd when she starts playing a victim. I tell her to suck it up and start acting like the big girl she is (she is seven).
post #10 of 37
I saw a close family friend go through this. Their son cried at the drop of a hat. He also quit games he wasn't winning and lots of other really annoying behaviors to kids and adults.

AT one point Mom would have to drag him to school screaming and crying and then bribe him with money to get him out of the car.

Counseling for the family helped tremendously. I can not stress what a difference it made. The kid is now a really good football player, does well in school, and is just a nice kid.
post #11 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by nextcommercial View Post
His parents handle it by calling the school. Or going back inside to talk to the teacher. Every time. Mom gets very, very emotional. Which I understand. It's the most painful thing in the world to see your child hurting.
Hearing this, I'd be more inclined to think learned behavior than a SN. Have you talked about how she reacts to things with her?
post #12 of 37
post #13 of 37
I have no idea about this perpetual victim business but this

Quote:
He's still very, very tall. He's the size of most 7th graders. He's still slower than the smaller more agile kids. He still cries all. day. long.
sounds like a kid with crazy hormone issues, right? Does he never see a doctor of any kind at all? I would think they'd be all OVER just the size alone. I know kids come in a wide range of normal but to be the size of a kid four year older is a pretty big leap.
post #14 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NiteNicole View Post


sounds like a kid with crazy hormone issues, right? Does he never see a doctor of any kind at all? I would think they'd be all OVER just the size alone. I know kids come in a wide range of normal but to be the size of a kid four year older is a pretty big leap.
He's been like this since he was about 12 months old. I have a picture of him at age two, he's standing next to three other kids all within four months of his age. He is more than a head taller than the other boys. They all come to his shoulder.

Once, he almost got thrown out of kindergarten by the substitute teacher because she didn't believe he was only five.

He also lost all his baby teeth at age four.

So, the doctors claim that with the steady growth, and the tooth loss that this is normal for him. I have no idea if that's true though since this same doctor told his parents he was in danger of being obese.... even though he is the skinniest kid I have ever seen. So, personally, I think this particular doctor is an idiot.
post #15 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by nextcommercial View Post
Also, I can't actually suggest special needs, since I am just the friend. I wonder if the school hasn't suggested it???
It can be difficult to tell the difference between mild sn and poor parenting, and this kids' parents are really screwing up. So he *might* have some sn, but the school, like many posters, will see the poor parenting and think that's the whole story.

What can you do? Are the parents open to suggestions from you? Would they read a book you lent them? Could you suggest family counseling? Can you tell them that he needs to take some responsibililty for himself and they need to start treating him like he is seven?
post #16 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post
It can be difficult to tell the difference between mild sn and poor parenting, and this kids' parents are really screwing up. So he *might* have some sn, but the school, like many posters, will see the poor parenting and think that's the whole story.

What can you do? Are the parents open to suggestions from you? Would they read a book you lent them? Could you suggest family counseling? Can you tell them that he needs to take some responsibililty for himself and they need to start treating him like he is seven?
Yes, they are asking for suggestions from me. I could give them a book, or links. I will send them the links posted earlier... but, I after I talk to mom first to make sure she's open to hear that I don't think he's truly being bullied.

They just love him so much, and he and his brother are their entire world. It's incredibly hard to see your child going through this. But, they need to help him find a way to get along with the other kids without bursting into tears when he's not the first in line.
post #17 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by nextcommercial View Post
He's been like this since he was about 12 months old. I have a picture of him at age two, he's standing next to three other kids all within four months of his age. He is more than a head taller than the other boys. They all come to his shoulder.

Once, he almost got thrown out of kindergarten by the substitute teacher because she didn't believe he was only five.

He also lost all his baby teeth at age four.

So, the doctors claim that with the steady growth, and the tooth loss that this is normal for him. I have no idea if that's true though since this same doctor told his parents he was in danger of being obese.... even though he is the skinniest kid I have ever seen. So, personally, I think this particular doctor is an idiot.
The loosing baby teeth at 4 yo sounds more concerning to me than the hight alone did. If it were just one or two one might just think early bloomer, but all of them seems beyond of normal variation. Are his parents very tall, or more average in hight?
post #18 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post
I wonder if there is something off in the family dynamic. How parents respond to crying has an impact on how much kids do it. I'm wondering if family counseling (with the counselor retraining the parents) would help.

If that isn't the main issue, I'm curious if the child has something off in their development -- asperger's, a mental illness, etc. that makes everything more stressful. Has he ever had a complete evaluation? Undiagnosed special needs can make childhood a bit of a nightmare, and mild special needs can look like bad behavoir or poor parenting.

Even if there is an underlieing problem, the parents could most likely improve the situation by how they handle things.



Why? Is there a reason the parents haven't tossed it out and given the kid a water bottler?



this is part of what makes me wonder if he has some sn. The goggles are more important to him than blending. While no one wants their child so hung up on fitting in that they act like a sheep, there is a happy medium and kids who can't find it end up with no friends and getting teased.



A little teasing is really normal. I have 1 sn kid and 1 typical kid. My typical kid says that all kids get occasional jibes about something they are wearing or their hair or something, and it's really a matter of how they react to that determines what happens next. Kids who can turn it into a joke or ignore it do fine, kids who take it to heart don't.

This little guy sounds like he needs some social skills and copying skills. How are the parents handling this stuff? What do they same to him about it? Do they feel he needs to learn to deal better with his peers, or do they feel that every one should walk on eggshells? Because he still has a sippy cup, I question if the have age appropriate expectations for him at all. He is a cry baby, and he drinks from a baby cup. It's odd.
: to all this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnS6 View Post
There was a really good post here:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...725&highlight=

There are some great resources here to deal with teasing. I would strongly suggest looking at those and giving those to mom and dad. If the family could work on this, life might be a lot happier.

The bottom line is that 'reactive' kids get teased and bullied more. Is it right? No. Is it OK? No. But, there is something that these kids can do -- they can learn to control their reactions and thereby reducing the teasing. If they don't give the perpetrators the thrill of the reaction, they'll get bored and go away.

I'm working really hard with ds on it. It's hard, but it is paying off.
Like Lynn, I have a "reactive" DS. We're now in a social skills training program. It's helped *a lot*. He's getting a lot better about not reacting and we do a lot of role playing and come up with 'scripts' for when DS is being teased. It's helped so much that DS (knock on wood) is not being teased at all any more and is actually making some friends in his class and in the neighborhood. So, while it is absolutely not right that kids tease/bully other kids, there are things that can at least help.

In my DS' case, he doesn't have sn, though. He's just very bright, very creative, not at all athletic or interested in sports, and a bit quirky. I love all that! But it doesn't necessarily help him fit in with other little boys very well. In the case of the OP's friends' little (big!) boy, it does sound like there could be some sn at play, so maybe something like social skills training wouldn't help him.
post #19 of 37
There seem to be a number of possibilities to consider. What is clear is that the boy is unhappy and the parents do not seem to be able to help him work through this.

Since the school has been involved, do you know if they have a school psychologist and/or a social worker that could observe the boy?
post #20 of 37
Quote:
But, my opinion is, this little boy needs to stop making himself a victim.
Wow. He's just a kid. Blaming the victim much?

You say:
Quote:
Clearly, though, they enjoy making him cry.
But then go on to contradict yourself by stating:
Quote:
To me, this isn't really bullying, as much as the other kids just not having anything in common with him.
They enjoy making him cry, and you don't think that's bullying? Do you realize that children have committed suicide over being bullied?

The opening post is clearly dripping with disdain for this kid. I'd figure out why you feel such disdain for a troubled kid, OP. I don't think you are in any position to be offering his family any advice at all.
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