"The perpetual victim"... vs Bullying? - Page 2

[JBaxter]

Sounds like some individual and family therapy is in order. For him more social skills training and for the parents some how to parent classes. There are things as a parent you need to really suggest to a child in 3rd grade like not taking a sippy cup to school ( there IS no reason to have one in the car on the way to school)

[GoBecGo]

Originally Posted by yokosmile

Wow. He's just a kid. Blaming the victim much?

The "bullies" are also just kids, and are behaving completely normally, developmentally, in being drawn/fascinated by emotional reactions and illiciting said reactions in others, especially peers. It is a very unpleasant fact that children are capable of immense cruelty.

Ultimately bullying happens. That is not to say we should accept it, but it is far more empowering for the victim to be taught strategies of self-protection and social skills than for them to be told "tell the teacher" forever - one day there won't be a teacher, workplace bullying happens too, and yes, there are unfortunately LOTS of people out there who are victims their whole lives because they are perpetually looking for someone ELSE to stand up for them. It would be nice if the mythical "someone" could always make it stop, but a lot of the time it is far more likely and far BETTER if the VICTIM makes it stop. In this kid's case he OBVIOUSLY needs assistance with his reactions and interactions to and with others, it isn't normal or, i'll bet, fun, to be in tears much of every day. If he can get good help NOW he will avoid a lot of pain in the future. I have seen many kids like this get moved to a new school - the pattern repeats and each time the teachers read the past reports and are more and more likely to think "cry-baby" and not even give the help they COULD. Is it fair? Of course not, but that's reality. I was once a childhood abuse victim, then a teen rape victim, and i never will be again. Rapists and abusive types have not died out, i have simply learned how to protect myself better if there is ever a next time. I'd rather have those skills than the thin hope than "someone" will prevent it happening again.

[carfreemama]

I don't sense any disdain for the child from the OP at all. It's a very difficult position to be directly asked for advice on something like this. You're being asked for your opinion for a reason and if it's your observation that this child may be setting himself up for problems, I think that's worth exploring.

It took me most of my adult life to figure out that my family was in permanent victim mode. ALL of my family. For generations. I think it's very exciting to see some attention paid to this phenomenon, because it can destroy lives. It nearly destroyed mine and it is still destroying much of the rest of my family's. I think we need a safe way to talk about this, knowing we aren't in any way suggesting that victims of bullying/abuse are to blame for it; but that they can learn to be happier and not be targets.

The only healing that came for me was when I realized this is how my family operated. I was the kid nextcommercial describes, though my parents were more negligent in dealing with it than anything. But what I've noticed is that in our family, attention gets paid to you if you're crying/sick/dependent, etc...If you are doing well and being strong, you are suspect or ignored. This happened in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. I had to learn all over again as an adult how to seek attention in positive ways. Am I still quirky? Absolutely. Learning not to be a victim enhanced my ability to express my individuality. It didn't hinder it. I sure wish I had had someone coaching me on social skills when I was this kid's age. I occasionally heard comments from exasperated family members like "is that all you can do, complain?" I remember those comments to this day, because they stung. And they were accurate. You can't cry over every little thing that goes wrong, you can't quit if you're not winning, you can't constantly accuse other people of wrongdoing and expect not to be shunned or teased.

I think you're spot on in your observations, nextcommercial and I think the parents NEED to hear this.

[ollyoxenfree]

I don't sense any disdain for the child or the family. My impression is that the OP is trying to find a way to express some sensitive comments and real concerns that may be easily taken the wrong way by the parents.

I haven't read anyone trying to blame the victim. Rather, I've read a lot of good suggestions to help the child learn to manage social situations and become a stronger person, more capable person.

I think the most effective anti-bullying programs in school set up an environment of respect and tolerance - not just between students, but also between staff and students. They focus on helping the students problem-solve, communicate and foster good relationships. A program that relies mostly on students telling (tattling to) teachers about a problem, and the teacher intervening to solve it, will not be successful. Bullying must not be tolerated, but that doesn't mean that children must rely on adults to solve every problem.

Parents who expect adults to protect and prevent all disappointments, hurts and unhappy outcomes for their child are not doing that child any favours. First, it isn't realistic or possible. Second, even if it were possible, it won't help that child become resilient and grow stronger.

[Linda on the move]

I think my advice to the parents would be:

1. family counseling. I'd frame this in the softest way possible, but their family dynamic is messed up and they need help sorting it out. Reading the right book isn't going to fix the problem. I suspect this child feels loved when he is being babied, so he cries and gets babied and feels loved, and changing that pattern isn't going to be easy. I think the parents are so hung up on the "difficulty seeing their child unhappy" thing that they've made him into a very unhappy little boy.

2. explaining to the mother that there is a correlation between her son's behavoir and the way other children treat him. I'd put it as nice as possible, may be saying something about how they've really tried to be child centered and made space for his feelings, but the rest of the world isn't going to treat him like that. What is appropriate emotional for a toddler isn't socially acceptable for a school aged child. This child needs his sippy cup to go in the trash, his goggles limited to at home use, etc. The mom needs to get clear on what is age appropriate and then expect of him. She needs to explain to HIM that his behavoir effects how children treat him. Neither the mother or the child seem to get this.

3. I'd suggest getting the kid involved in some sort of physical, outside of school acitivty. Swimming is a GREAT sport for quirky kids, but martial arts could be really good for him too. He needs self control, self awareness, etc. and martial arts are really good for that. I think he needs an identity other than "the whining baby" which is his role both at home and at school. He needs to start seeing himself a different way, as a competant human being.

4. My favorite parenting book is "Liberated Parents, Liberated Children." It doesn't directly deal with these issues, but I still think that it would be helpful for the parents.

lastly, all kids get teased, only a few get bullied. The first reaction of a child who is teased should be To Deal With It Themselves. Only if the behavoir persist should they go to an adult. Rather than imediately stepping in to *fix* it, parents can help kids brainstorm ways to handle the situation themselves next time.

It is our job as parents to work ourselves out of a job! The rest of the world is not going to cater to our children. People throughout their lives will say things to them that upset them. We can help them develop the skills to deal with that. Just because another child says something to our child that our child didnt' like, it doesn't mean that they were being bullied.

[GoBecGo]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move

It is our job as parents to work ourselves out of a job! The rest of the world is not going to cater to our children. People throughout their lives will say things to them that upset them. We can help them develop the skills to deal with that. Just because another child says something to our child that our child didnt' like, it doesn't mean that they were being bullied.

Just wanted to bring attention to this because i think it's soooo wise and thoughtful! That is precisely my take on this job of parenting too!

[LauraLoo]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move

1. family counseling. I'd frame this in the softest way possible, but their family dynamic is messed up and they need help sorting it out. Reading the right book isn't going to fix the problem.

I really agree with this. Something is out of sorts and someone from the outside needs to figure it out. It's why I suggested a school psychologist/social worker to observe and hopefully they would make this suggestion, too. A family therapist is a very good place to start.

OP - I don't know what your current relationship is with this family, but I'd go gently with any additional suggestions. If the parents are blamers and can't understand that they have a role in this mess, too, they may turn the finger back on you. I'd frame up the counseling as something like, "There seems to be something going on, and maybe someone who deals with this kind of stuff all the time can figure it out."

GL!

[nextcommercial]

Originally Posted by yokosmile

The opening post is clearly dripping with disdain for this kid. I'd figure out why you feel such disdain for a troubled kid, OP. I don't think you are in any position to be offering his family any advice at all.

That is completly untrue, and you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. So I'm not going to give this post any extra attention.

[nextcommercial]

We talked last night again. She kindof understands that Maybe her son is attracting the bad attention by crying so much. She sees the difference between her oldest son, and her youngest kindergarten son. The younger boy just ignores injustice and it rolls off his back. The older one is very different, and those little infractions are a huge deal to him.

She remembers that they always let him win games. Always. They always made sure he got to open the doors. They would even close an open door to let him open it.

Apparently, the school district offers a "bullying class" and the "victims" can go to it also to learn how to handle what happens to them. Mom refuses to send him to this. (I would refuse too) But, At least she's willing to give this idea some thought. Maybe they can all work together to find a way to help him deal with his feelings.

[NightOwlwithowlet]

Some kids are more emotional, my son is one of them. He does tends to cry easily, he has a speech delay and get frustrated and cries. We have worked very hard to teach him the difference between teasing and bullying. It's complicated by the fact that he was bullied in kindergarten (to the point that the bully was expelled). We do everything possible to make sure he doesn't make himself a target, certainly no sippy cups. He's had counseling, social skills classes, martial arts, and role playing.

He still cries easily, though it is getting better with maturity. The last time a kid called him a "cry baby", he called the kid a "jerk" and walked away. I guess that is better......

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by nextcommercial

The younger boy just ignores injustice and it rolls off his back. The older one is very different, and those little infractions are a huge deal to him.

She remembers that they always let him win games. Always. They always made sure he got to open the doors.

Seriously? They let him win every game even though he has a younger sib?

[pauletoy]

OP, just wanted to say that the parents must really value your advice. I don't envy the position you find yourself in though.

From everything you have noted, it sounds to me like a majority of the problem is the parents giving in to the little boy. He has no idea how to manage his emotions when he doesn't get what he wants because he has never had to. Now that he is older, his peers have started noticing his little quirks and, unfortunately, children can be very cruel. A good start would be ditching the sippy cup.

I have a very sensitive little boy (we believe he had mild SPD). Organized sports have been the key to helping him gain some self confidence, independence, handle disappointment and learn how to interact with other children. Maybe the parents would consider tball, karate, soccer, etc.

[journeymom]

Originally Posted by eepster

Hearing this, I'd be more inclined to think learned behavior than a SN. Have you talked about how she reacts to things with her?

Well, and it can be a big dose of both nature and nurture, SN and learned behavior. Maybe the boy IS a little to the left of center on the normal spectrum. Heck, maybe his mom is, too!

Originally Posted by yokosmile

They enjoy making him cry, and you don't think that's bullying? Do you realize that children have committed suicide over being bullied?

There's a big difference between teasing and bullying. Though teasing can turn into bullying eventually. But what the OP described doesn't sound like bullying.

Take a look at this article. It's got an interesting perspective on how to deal with bullying, and why the popular approach to bully education isn't working.

We talk a lot about how the only person we can ever control completely is ourselves. This little boy is the only constant in each of those scenarios. Teaching him how to get along in the real world, so that he doesn't fall apart at every perceived slight, could help liberate him and help him feel like a strong, likable person.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by journeymom

There's a big difference between teasing and bullying. Though teasing can turn into bullying eventually. But what the OP described doesn't sound like bullying.

Take a look at this article. It's got an interesting perspective on how to deal with bullying, and why the popular approach to bully education isn't working.

As a former victim of bullying, that was a hard read, but I liked what it had to say. I've never been a fan of the anti-bullying stuff. All the "tell an authority figure" stuff makes my head hurt. I've never seen anything that gets a kid targetted more intensely than "tattling".

[nextcommercial]

Originally Posted by journeymom

Take a look at this article. It's got an interesting perspective on how to deal with bullying, and why the popular approach to bully education isn't working.

.

I just emailed her that link. Thanks.

[LROM]

That is SUCH a good article. I have to say, it was a real turning point for me as an adult when I was arguing with some guy at a party about an issue that was very important to me, and he made me cry (I was an adult already!) because he was SO mean and dismissive and ridiculous, but he clearly enjoyed upsetting me so neither of us walked away from it and it just spiraled and spiraled.

After that party I swore I was going to find new ways of talking to people I seriously disagreed with about those topics I was emotionally invested in. And I discovered something really similar to this bullying article, mainly LISTENING to the other person's argument and, no matter how much I might think their basis for disagreement was bogus or irrational, still use their own argument to illustrate my argument. AND to do that while staying calm.

It was a huge shift. And a couple years later when I encountered this guy again, my calmness, my turning questions back on him, and the way I basically said "At the end of the day, I don't really care if you disagree with me. I still know I'm right." It seriously almost had him in tears, he was so frustrated that I wouldn't engage him in hysteria!

I totally learned from that that when I talk to victims of any kind, no matter how in the wrong the bad guy/gal is, it really is about equipping the victim. "What will you say next time? What will you do? Do you have a safety plan? Let's role play this - what if he/she says this? What else could go wrong?" This goes for talking to abusive parents, partners, neighbors, whoever... no matter how horrible they are in what they're doing, they apparently will still do it unless the victim changes THEIR part in the dynamic, even if the dynamic isn't the victim's fault.

If we want something bad to end, no matter how much we're not to blame, we still have to be realistic and if there's something we can do/change to shift the dynamic, we should have tools to shift it.

That poor Irish girl who committed suicide at 15 after months of ruthless tormenting, when I first heard about it I thought "that is SO tragic!!! I definitely believe in making an example of those who tormented her, but surely she didn't have to die? Did anyone help her think through how to protect herself beyond "Don't pay attention to them... dont listen to them..."? The bullying was ruthless from what I heard and that girl needed serious support in figuring out how to react, but being from another country and place where she never encountered people that mean... she was clearly too vulnerable. I wish I could have been her friend in that school.....

I will absolutely positively pose hypotheticals to my dd when she's school aged. And when she's old enough to be interested in boys (what is that now, like 8???) I'm going to role play situations with boys too (age appropriate of course!) and ask her what she'd do if people did/said _______ to her. Also watching t.v. and movies and talking to her about what happens and how she feels about how people handle things. All in the name of learning how she thinks and hopefully offering helpful advice if she feels stuck or confused. That's some of the best anti-bullying medicine out there I hope...

[journeymom]

LROM, well said!