toxic relationship?

[berry987]

Not sure where to post this...so mods, please move if there is a better place.

I'm wondering what constitutes a toxic relationship to you? If you feel awful around someone all the time, beaten down, less than, mocked. If you never speak your mind because it will be met with disgust and a condescending reply. If you can't stand to hear this person talk because all they ever say is either bragging about themselves (and their children) or talking badly about someone else. If every time you left this person's company you just felt...horrible.

Is that a toxic relationship? If you said yes...if it were a family member, would you limit contact?

Edited: The reason I am questioning whether it's toxic is I always assumed toxic relationships were obvious...abuse or rage or something. This person (well, my SIL...I might as well say it) has been in my life for 13 years. And the horrible-ness of being around her has grown slowly over the years. And the weird thing is...she likes me. She seeks me out, wants to email, wants to get together. But I feel like crap around her and don't want to see her.

[laohaire]

Yes, and no - I wouldn't limit contact, I'd cut it off entirely.

[LionTigerBear]

Yes, absolutely, even if they were a family member I would cut off contact. Cutting off contact doesn't have to be permanent, although it likely will be. In my case, if my toxic family members ever become non-toxic-- for a long enough period of time to prove it to me, that they are really, truly, changed-- then I would be willing to try again. But I highly doubt that will happen. I'm sorry you have someone in your life like this. You do not need to put up with it!

[~Charlie's~Angel~]

Most of the time, the "toxic" relationships are the ones that keep coming back and making contact. I.e., emails, holidays, family gatherings, phonecalls, hense why its SOOOO TOXIC. Otherwise they would just be strangers you didnt have to deal with, and toxic to someone else.

Yes, your SIL is a toxic person, especially if you feel horrible after just being around her.

[jeteaa]

I have cut off contact 100% with my dad. Its been over 8 years now that I have talked w/ him. So yes its possible to cut off relatives. But I will say that some people DESERVE a chance talk about the issues first, such as a relative or long time friend. Putting myself in your SIL place, I wonder WHY she comes across as you described? I know that when I am around someone who I feel inferior to, envious of, intimidated by, I can babble on and social skills go out the window! Maybe you act in such a away that makes your SIL say the things she does, maybe you make HER uncomfortable??? Maybe she just lacks the social skills to recognize her effect on you??? Good luck.

[claddaghmom]

Symptoms of a toxic relationship:

edgy
walking on eggshells
second guessing your worth, value, decisions (outside of good introspection)
constantly defending yourself, your life, your choices
playing mind games
cyclic extremes...too happy, too angry
put downs, criticism, verbal/emotional abuse
feel tired, depressed, drained after interaction
feel physical symptoms such as shaking, crying, anxiety, indigestion
have to hide parts of yourself, what you think, what you did
treated differently in private versus public
money is a control issue
time/presence is a control issue
any physical abuse
any sexual abuse

Depending on the circumstances, I would limit or altogether cut any toxic relationship. If I gather the person has issues in general or if the interaction is already very short (e.g. extended relatives who live far away) I might put up with it at a family reunion or in a Christmas card. The closer the relationship and the more frequent the interaction, along with type of abuse and degree, the more likely I would just completely cut them. Toxic relationships are extremely dangerous IMO and the primary danger is that most people don't realize how dangerous they are to their life and wellbeing. They are slow, poisonous situations that slowly change your outlook, your personality and your life choices.

[sapientia]

yep, been there (ironically with a SIL) and her big thing is/was ALL passive aggressive-enough so that she can act shocked and amazed when confronted. So I limitedall contact severely after many years of trying and trying and...it just went nowhere. So now I speak to her maybe twice a year.
Best thing I did.
There are a few other toxic people in my life and I absolutely limit them or plan to cut them off completely. I feel much better.

[lotus.blossom]

Sounds absolutely, toxic. Someone who is passive aggressive, competetive, catty, gossipy, or a one-upper has no room in my life. I will see these people socially but not seek out their company. I have a few amazing friends and its just natural when I am with them. Lifes too short to try to make it work with someone like that.

[berry987]

Originally Posted by jeteaa

I have cut off contact 100% with my dad. Its been over 8 years now that I have talked w/ him. So yes its possible to cut off relatives. But I will say that some people DESERVE a chance talk about the issues first, such as a relative or long time friend. Putting myself in your SIL place, I wonder WHY she comes across as you described? I know that when I am around someone who I feel inferior to, envious of, intimidated by, I can babble on and social skills go out the window! Maybe you act in such a away that makes your SIL say the things she does, maybe you make HER uncomfortable??? Maybe she just lacks the social skills to recognize her effect on you??? Good luck.

I doubt this...mainly because she kind of the "queen bee" in my DHs family. When I started dating my DH 13 years ago, she was engaged to my BIL and had already firmly planted herself in the "she who rules the roost" spot. I never wanted to rule, I just wanted to coexist peacefully with my husband's family. So naive. She has a lot of confidence....or arrogance. And I do know that she has no contact with her brother's wife because of disagreements...and they live across the street!

I think she has very little self-awareness. She can be so incredibly ugly when she talks about other people -- often people who just left the room like our mutual FIL

We are incredibly different people, first of all. She is a mainstream pediatrician who was recently quoted in an AMA magazine admonishing parents who don't vax. She told me I was selfish and risking my son's life for choosing home birth. Actually, she screamed it at me. She is very money-oriented and proud of it...and I'm just not. We tend to disagree on everything. Yet, for some reason, her opinion is the only one allowed. She attacks if you question her. So I've just stopped talking. I've learned how to keep peace - nod and listen even if what she is saying is ignorant and mean.

My DH and I tried to talk to her and BIL about our relationship one time a few years ago. We went out to dinner with them and somehow the "family dynamic" came up and...long story short...it ended with me crying, my DH about the punch a wall and my SIL chuckling to herself. And in the end, she didn't get it AT ALL.

I wish I could say she was jealous or intimidated by me....but I don't think she is intimidated by anyone. Let alone me, 8 years younger, married to her husband's "little bro" apparently incapable of making life choices.

[LROM]

Actually, you'd be suprised... sometimes the very reason toxic people keep seeking out certain people is that those people are threatening to them and again and again they want to prove to themselves that they are superior/can dominate those threatening people. Not that it's conscioius - I seriously doubt your SIL walks around thinking "I worry she's better than me, but I'll show her!"

Instead I wouldn't be suprised if she subconsciously is threatened by you, your lifestyle, your lack of concern about material wealth. Because really, i fyou don't care about the same things she does or do things differently than she feels everyone should, you are bucking her system.

Sane adults should of course be able to live with each other's different choices (as long as no one's getting hurt), but here is where people's issues come in.

Interestingly, I think you should read the thread in "Parenting" about "victim vs. bullying" or something like that. There's a link to an article in almost the last post, I seriously think the dynamic in that article applies to most toxic relationships. And toxic people are kinda adult bullies.

Check it out, see if the thinking in that helps you think differently about how you interact with her when you HAVE to interact with her.

All other times... cut her off. You have choices, and you should be clear that what feels healthy for you and your family is most important. Me, I'd want to talk to her about how specific behaviors she has makes me feel, but I'd do so understanding that she may very well act hurt, offended, misunderstood, etc and then not change a thing. And I'd need to live with that. But being clear at least makes you have tried to give her soem awareness about the affect she's having, so that if she truly does value her relationship with you she has a chance to learn and change.

But if she's really toxic, you don't have to do that. Just figure out how to handle your few interactions with her so you don't get poisoned, or not much poison anyway....

[lilmom]

Absolutely, without a doubt, 100% toxic. I would cut her off.

I cut my dad out of my life for several years because he was so completely toxic I felt physically ill after any contact with him. It was the best thing I ever did for myself and also for my personal relationships too! My boyfriends and friends no longer had to deal with him harrassing them too!

I did speak with him again when I was pregnant with DS and have seen him twice since then..but every time has been toxic again..the only difference is that I just didn't really care anymore and pretty much had no expectations of normalcy from him, and also the visits were extremely limited, and on MY terms, at a neutral location. I would never go to his house. Gives him wayyy too much power.

Life is much, much too short to spend with people who are this way. In my experience, they don't change. So sorry you have been dealing with her in this way. I hope you are able to cut ties, at least most of the time.

[AirMiami]

Originally Posted by berry987

I'm wondering what constitutes a toxic relationship to you? If you feel awful around someone all the time, beaten down, less than, mocked. If you never speak your mind because it will be met with disgust and a condescending reply. If you can't stand to hear this person talk because all they ever say is either bragging about themselves (and their children) or talking badly about someone else. If every time you left this person's company you just felt...horrible.

Wow...this is my mother...

[mamallama]

I think it's really sad that she's a pediatrician and she chooses to alienate you and berate you. Where's the compassion?? She ought to have better job skills than that.

It would be one thing if she met you where you are, expressed concern, heard your point of view, and then offered evidence supporting her point of view. Maybe you still wouldn't agree, but it would be entirely different from her screaming at you and accusing you.

I'm the queen bee in my family (I'm more-or-less happy being broke, though--I'm not at all money oriented!) I never scream at anyone. I never berate anyone. My siblings call me for advice. Maybe the difference between me and your SIL is that I'm confident in my decisions.

I would limit contact to the bare essentials, at least for now.

I did that about 10 years ago with my step mom. It's been great. Last time I saw her was 3yrs ago at my brother's high school graduation. I send Christmas cards. She emails occasionally. I respond when she's polite, delete when she's passive aggressive. It took a while, but I used to stew for days over those nasty little digs she'd take. Now it's no more than a momentary annoyance to me. I delete, smile and nod, pass the bean dip, whatever the situation calls for and move right on.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by berry987

I wish I could say she was jealous or intimidated by me....but I don't think she is intimidated by anyone. Let alone me, 8 years younger, married to her husband's "little bro" apparently incapable of making life choices.

You might be surprised:

Originally Posted by LROM

Actually, you'd be suprised... sometimes the very reason toxic people keep seeking out certain people is that those people are threatening to them and again and again they want to prove to themselves that they are superior/can dominate those threatening people. Not that it's conscioius - I seriously doubt your SIL walks around thinking "I worry she's better than me, but I'll show her!"

Instead I wouldn't be suprised if she subconsciously is threatened by you, your lifestyle, your lack of concern about material wealth.

This. I have someone in my life who I've tried to warm up to, and have never been able to. I feel kind of incompetent around her, and she's always seemed so self-confident (confidence is something I've never had, even as a child) and kind of intimidating. I won't get into details, but someone who knows us both told me, about a year ago, that he thinks she's intimidated by me, because I just don't give a crap about a lot of things that she feels are really important, and she can't fathom even being able to function in my life, yk?

Not that any of that makes it any easier to deal with her. It doesn't. I'm sure it doesn't help you deal with your SIL, either. I'd certainly consider cutting off contact, but only you and your dh know if that would be worth it.

*HUGS*

[berry987]

Thanks everyone for your replies. It's very comforting to hear "cut her off" because I have been distancing myself for about a year now. We used to have a lot more contact - I tried for so long to have the SIL relationship I thought was possible with two, normal, grown women. I went through all the motions like we were close and it was just wearing me down, little by little. I used to massively stress about upcoming visits, because I thought that if I just reacted differently or spoke in a more confident manner things wouldn't get so bad. But after so many years (and a really awful visit to the ILs vacation home) I finally told DH last summer that I was not going to communicate much with her anymore. So for almost a year, I respond to photos/updates she sends of my nephews, but I don't include more (no, "How are you doing?" in there). And she emailed a few weeks ago saying she wanted to plan a get-together and I just never responded. Oh, and when she forwarded the article where she is quoted about vax's....never responded. So her emails have tapered off, too.

My DH is now in charge of family visits and he can talk to his brother. DH brought the kids up to their house (they live 2 hours away) a few months ago to watch football with his brother. So they can have their relationship, but it doesn't mean I have to have one with his wife.

Anyway, I've been feeling a little guilty lately, because it feels GOOD to not be in contact with her. She's out of my head for the most part. I don't have the "what will ** say about this? How can I hide it from her and avoid some mocking comment?" playing through my decisions. And I was wondering if what I've done is bad or rude...or justified. Because I can totally understand cutting off contact with someone who is physically abusive or has massive rage or something....but just mean, arrogant, judgemental?

And it's funny that you mention the intimidated by someone who lives life totally different than her. Because my sisters have said the same thing. I think that might be part of it, because she is definitely most angry/judgemental/dismissive when she comes in contact with "others." It's like she's from this exclusive planet that only has rich people who worry about the who was invited to who's dinner party, donate to the proper charities, and of course, trust their doctors implicitly. Because she seems downright stunned when she hears other ideas. Once, after a long family gathering with lots of drinking, she told me in an inebriated state that she doesn't feel like she can relax with her friends because any one of her friends would toss her to the wolves if it benefited them. That she can "be herself" around me, though. I know that is incredibly sad. But I still don't want to be around her.

So, thanks....I feel better.

And, yes, Mamallama, I sometimes wonder about her patients. I've been with her when she was on call before and seems SOOO condescending on the phone with her patients' parents. And she told me before that her worst nightmare is when parents come in with print outs from internet and questions...because, what, people trying to educate themselves about their child's health are just awful??

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by berry987

And she told me before that her worst nightmare is when parents come in with print outs from internet and questions...because, what, people trying to educate themselves about their child's health are just awful??

Awful...or threatening? I'm not someone who has a lot of patience with, or trust in, the medical profession, as a whole. But, it probably would be hard for a lot of people to spend all those years in school, and then have some "amateur" (and I think many of them fail to think of it from the perspective of parents being an expert on their child) show up, basically saying, "okay - I already know what's going on, so your skills aren't needed - I just need your access to medication/surgery/treatment", yk?

She sounds really insecure, honestly...but I wouldn't want to be around her. It's possible to understand why someone is the way they are, and still not want them around.

[yokosmile]

Originally Posted by LROM

Actually, you'd be suprised... sometimes the very reason toxic people keep seeking out certain people is that those people are threatening to them and again and again they want to prove to themselves that they are superior/can dominate those threatening people. Not that it's conscioius - I seriously doubt your SIL walks around thinking "I worry she's better than me, but I'll show her!"

Very insightful!

OP, it can be very difficult to cut contact with a toxic family member, but you will feel such relief after you do, I promise.