Ok, walk me through this one....

[MommaCrystal]

My children go to a very good friend's house once a week for a few hours. It has been a fabulous experience for my boys. She is a wonderful childcare provider and they have a ball. And she love my boys.

She has a daughter 8 months older than my oldest. Her daughter just turned 5, my son will turn five in November. I also bring my 2 1/2 year old.

When I arrived today my friend was crying. I knew something happened and I braced myself to hear it.

She was making lunch and the kids were playing in the next room. My friend realized it was too quiet and went to investigate. The kids came scrambling out from behind the couch. The first story was that they were just reading a book back there. (Both kids told her that separately) My friend knew that wasn't it. She asked them separately what really happened. My son told her that her daughter touched him right here, pointing to his pants.

She punished her daughter in whatever way she saw fit. I didn't ask how as I don't feel that is my business. I told her I'd talk to my son and see what else I could learn. My friend was so upset! She thought this would be the end of our friendship. I'm not happy, but I didn't react as big as she thought I would.

Later my son told my husband that the little girl started to pull his pants down and that he then helped her do it. She told him not to tell her mother, that this would be their little secret. She touched the top of his penis. He told my husband he liked it and that it felt good.

My husband talked to him (very gently) about how it isn't ok to take our clothes of except when at home and changing/getting ready for the bath etc. He told him that no one should touch any part of his body that his underwear covers (we've had this discussion before).

My son walked away from the conversation with a smile. He seemed to feel ok about things.

I know I now need to tell me friend the new details I've learned.

I also want my husband to talk to my son about NOT doing this with another child.

Help me moms, what am I missing? What else should I address? Am I under reacting? Or over reacting?

Thanks!

[~Charlie's~Angel~]

I think you are handling it beautifully.

It all sounds normal, albeit a little nerve racking at first. They are both the same age, so its not like an older child is taking advantage of a younger one.

Maybe your friend just felt so awful because it happened while the kids were in her care.

[pianojazzgirl]

I think you handled it well too. It really is a pretty normal thing for kids this age to be curious about each others' bodies. I agree with the pp that it is a much different dynamic than if it was an older child with a younger one (I don't consider 8 months difference to be significant).

Honestly, if I were your friend I wouldn't punish my dd, but I would have a serious conversation about how it's ok to be curious, but privates need to be kept private. And I'd probably get out an age-appropriate book from the library with pictures of the human body.

If I were you I'd have a conversation with my friend (or maybe send an email?) and let her know that I thought it was natural and normal that the kids had "played dr". I'd let her know about the conversation you had with your ds and I'd suggest that both kids get a chance to satisfy their curiosity with a book.

[scottishmommy]

I think you handled it well. This sort of play is really common and normal. I personally think we freak out too much about this sort of thing in our society. I would call your neighbor and reassure her that everything is fine.

[limabean]

I tend to agree with the others. Actually, just now on the radio I was listening to a parent describe something very similar, saying how a 6yo had started to try to touch a 4.5yo, and they were describing it as "molestation" and said that they had completely severed their relationship with the child and his parents. I was thinking that I'd have a hard time classifying it as molestation with kids so young, and was thinking that although some very serious conversations and heavy supervision would be in order, I couldn't really see myself severing an otherwise good relationship over something like that.

[MammaG]

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that maybe no further intervention is required. I haven't really thought this through all the way...this is my first gut reaction, but here it is:

Don't you remember playing 'doctor' as a child? I do. I liked it and to be perfectly honest I think it taught me a lot about my sexuality (and, yes, kids are sexual beings wether we are comfrotable with that or not...just because they aren't sexually mature yet doesn't mean that they have no sexual feelings). Given that your son and this girl are of an age and assuming that there are no other indications that one is more dominant all the time, maybe a little touching isn't something to get freaked about.

Of COURSE you ought to take the time to make sure your son is comfortable talking to you about such encounters because they will happen and there is a danger that something truly inappropriate and damaging might happen. I'm not suggesting that it ought to be encouraged or approved-of...maybe just, well, ignored.

I think that I used childhood explorations to learn the limits of what I was comfortable with. It was all very innocent for the most part, and as I approached adolescence I became uncomfortable with anyone seeing me naked (Mum and Dad, too) or touching me with anything but the briefest of hugs. Then as I became sexual as a teen, I was always pretty comfortable expressing what I was comfortable with and setting limits about 'how far' I was willing to go. I really do think that the youthful explorations made me more confident and secure.

I'd even go so far as to wonder if because this type of encounter is so universal that maybe there's something developmental that we're supposed to get from it (again, age-similar kids, no bullying etc).

So, again, this is not a totally thought-out response that I would fight for...just my first reaction...I haven't yet dealt with this one as a parent. I sometimes wonder when my boys will get the chance to have the kind of freedom I had as a child to roam freely with a pack of freinds and cousins and have the chance to negotiate these types of situations for themselves, KWIM?

[earthgirl]

I totally agree with MammaG, I don't think you need to do anything else. And I just want to reiterate what others have said, that this type of play seems developmentally normal.

[swtmama2be]

I agree with pp's.......but....

The thing that really concerns me is the girl saying it was their secret and not to tell her mother. That puts a red flag up for me...is it possible the girl is being sexually abused? Maybe I'm reading to much into it...not telling parents is one thing....but calling it a secret makes me very uncomfortable....

[PoppyMama]

It could be that the girl has been molested but it could also be simple sneakiness. Like playing sick because you don't want to go to school or sneaking junk food that you know your parents don't want you to eat. Kids that young know that sexuality is taboo for them.

[BellinghamCrunchie]

Originally Posted by swtmama2be

I agree with pp's.......but....

The thing that really concerns me is the girl saying it was their secret and not to tell her mother. That puts a red flag up for me...is it possible the girl is being sexually abused? Maybe I'm reading to much into it...not telling parents is one thing....but calling it a secret makes me very uncomfortable....

It sounded to me like her mother was very upset (crying). For that reason alone, a young child might want to keep it secret - to not upset mom. It also sounds like her mother may have punished the girl.

[RoseDuperre]

Originally Posted by pianojazzgirl

Honestly, if I were your friend I wouldn't punish my dd, but I would have a serious conversation about how it's ok to be curious, but privates need to be kept private. And I'd probably get out an age-appropriate book from the library with pictures of the human body.

If I were you I'd have a conversation with my friend (or maybe send an email?) and let her know that I thought it was natural and normal that the kids had "played dr". I'd let her know about the conversation you had with your ds and I'd suggest that both kids get a chance to satisfy their curiosity with a book.

Yes and yes. I do hope she wasn't too harshly punished, though other people have a point about the possibility of something underlying this secrecy and concern.

Originally Posted by scottishmommy

I think you handled it well. This sort of play is really common and normal. I personally think we freak out too much about this sort of thing in our society. I would call your neighbor and reassure her that everything is fine.

Please do this!

Originally Posted by limabean

I tend to agree with the others. Actually, just now on the radio I was listening to a parent describe something very similar, saying how a 6yo had started to try to touch a 4.5yo, and they were describing it as "molestation" and said that they had completely severed their relationship with the child and his parents.

Now THAT seems like an overreaction.

[TiredX2]

Moved to The Childhood Years

[One_Girl]

It sounds like a normal interaction that will hopefully not happen again now that the issue has been addressed. I think you should tell the mom that you talked to your son about private parts staying private and keep it at that.

It may be that the secret thing had nothing to do with the exploration issue. I talked a lot with my dd about good secrets and bad secrets from the time she was very little, but I phrased bad secrets as a big kid or adult touching her rather than two kids the same age exploring and if that is how this girls mom has addressed secrets with her I can see how she would think nothing of saying it is a secret if she is into secrets. When my dd was that age she was very interested in secrets and she wanted to have lots of secrets with her friends, they were silly little secrets that I wasn't particularly interested in like what toys they were going to play with, which princess she was going to imagine to be that day, which dress they were each going to change into, what they wanted for snack.

[mama2toomany]

i think because they are so close in age and of opposite sex, that it was pretty much just a matter of time.

I think the "secret" part of it is probably because her mother has had that talk with her about inappropriate touching and she didn't want to get into trouble, but still had that curiosity about a boy.

If the girl is being molested then the signs will grow and it would be more apparent. Even showing some signs like this twards adults.

I remember playing doctor with a boy when I was 5.

I think as long as your son has no ill effects from this and is reminded about personal space and good touches and bad touches all will be well. It might not hurt your friends dd to hear those lessons again.

I think you handled it rather well. You stayed calm, and I think in the long run your friend and your son will thank you for it.

[MommaCrystal]

A little update...

I left this alone with my friend as I thought an in person chat would be best (and I got caught up in the Holiday weekend and assumed she had too) and I'll be seeing her tomorrow.

Well, she called me this afternoon and I could hear she was crying. I feel horrible! I wish I had called her sooner. She's been beating herself up all weekend about it. She got more details from her daughter that match the details exactly that my son gave my DH. My friend feels like she let me down and she wasn't watching them closely enough. She was a mess.

I reassured her up and down that I really thought it was normal kids play. (I thought in my head, as someone else mentioned in the post that it was probably inevitable but I didn't say that). I told her that I didn't think she did anything wrong and she wasn't neglectful. I told her I was a tad concerned over the language her daughter used (the secret part) and that I'd keep my eyes open for anything else just in case. But it all seemed really innocent to me.

We agreed to go over the ground rules with each of our own children before our next visit. And she agreed to keep them under her thumb so to speak so they just don't have a chance to get themselves into another sticky situation.

I'm really fine with everything. I hope she is now too.

Thank you ladies!

[zeldamomma]

Originally Posted by MammaG

Of COURSE you ought to take the time to make sure your son is comfortable talking to you about such encounters because they will happen and there is a danger that something truly inappropriate and damaging might happen. I'm not suggesting that it ought to be encouraged or approved-of...maybe just, well, ignored.

I strongly disagree with this as general parenting advice. I don't know how you ignore something and encourage your child to tell you about it-- if your child is telling you about something and you don't try to stop it, you're tacitly approving. My experience is that MANY parents of dominant kids don't see their kids as dominant-- they assume that every child is like their child, and that the relationships are evenly matched. So a kid could be steamrolling over their friends, and the only adult who has any information isn't saying anything because it sounds consensual, based on their child's depiction.

I think the risk of something inappropriate or damaging happening is too great to turn a blind eye and allow the exploration to continue.

For the OP, I don't think I would have punished either kid, but I would certainly act to prevent any more exploring in the future. I hope your friend doesn't beat herself up about it anymore.

[pianojazzgirl]

OP - thanks for updating. I'm sorry your friend was feeling so bad about it. I hope she feels better after your reassurances. Sounds like you handled it well.