ugh....cannot come to an agreement....

[evjolin]

i want to leave son intact, dh does not (sound like a broken record i'm sure).

he has read the research that i have given him from several great sources. he still not convinced and his greatest concern is the "locker room" which i do believe is a valid concern. i'm just not sure what the stats are in our area for intact v. circ'd boys, and i do have friends who are intact who had very traumatic years because of emotional teasing and trauma.

that being said, i want the decision to be our child's, not mine.

so, my question is, if we DO end up circ'ing, any advice as far as having a ped vs ob vs. a mohel vs a plastic surgeon???

i am extremely concerned about having it done correctly if we do decide to do it....

[beckyand3littlemonsters]

Coming from a country where circumcision is not the norma unless religious or medical reasons i really don't don't understand why anyone else would do this to their baby, sorry not answering your question.
do boys really look that close at each others penis's? i mean seriously i highly doubt they do besides i'm pretty sure they don't all look exactly the same.
please don't take any offence here cos it really isn't intended but if your son was to be smaller in that department than the other boys in the locker room would he then be taken to have an enlargement to avoid locker room teasing?
if no then why remove part of his body to avoid the same thing, children can be cruel but if they are going to tease someone they will always think of something to tease about i was always teased about my surname and the fact that i wear glasses a better thing to do would be to teach your little boy that he is special it is the others that are different (or altered) besides from reading here less and less people are circumcising now any way so those who do will soon be the minority.

[listipton]

For our family, the 'locker room' argument was the biggie for my dh too....Until I asked him if he knew what his friends penis's looked like....and his dad's, etc. He couldn't answer. Also, I pointed out that most schools don't have boys shower together any longer (even after sporting events) due to taunting, etc. Our town has less than 3000 residents and is slow to change and does not have group showering.

FWIW, dh wasn't enthusiastic about leaving ds intact at first. Now, it's a non-issue and he's slowly becoming a pretty outspoken parent about it (as well as not vaxing, babywearing, extended bfing.... you get the picture). We live in the Midwest where circ rates and mainstream medicine runs high.

* as to the 'best' circ method question....my answer would be none. If you're already regretting thinking about it, you're just going to regret it more later. I'd stick to your feelings on leaving it to your son to decide if that is something he wants to do when he is grown.

[klg47]

Originally Posted by evjolin

his greatest concern is the "locker room" which i do believe is a valid concern.

Really? And are you and your H also prepared to have cosmetic facial/body surgery, dye hair, get LASIK, etc., etc., etc., for your son in case people tease him about his nose/face/fatness/skinniness/hair/glasses/etc?

There are a few very effective responses if locker room teasing ever did become an issue.
1) "You're laughing at ME because part of YOUR penis is cut off? "

2) Why are you looking?

Both of those will shut most teenage boys up VERY fast.

[KristyDi]

Originally Posted by evjolin

i want to leave son intact, dh does not (sound like a broken record i'm sure).

he has read the research that i have given him from several great sources. he still not convinced and his greatest concern is the "locker room" which i do believe is a valid concern. i'm just not sure what the stats are in our area for intact v. circ'd boys, and i do have friends who are intact who had very traumatic years because of emotional teasing and trauma.

If your teenage daughter came to you and asked to surgically change the size of her breasts because her peers were teasing her about them would you sign her up for surgery or work with her on accepting the body God/nature gave her and teach her strategies for dealing with teasing/bullying?

Originally Posted by evjolin

that being said, i want the decision to be our child's, not mine.

so, my question is, if we DO end up circ'ing, any advice as far as having a ped vs ob vs. a mohel vs a plastic surgeon???

i am extremely concerned about having it done correctly if we do decide to do it....

I say this with as much gentleness as possible. There is no right way to do a wrong thing. If you circ your son, no matter who does it or how, you will be altering forever the look and function of his penis without his consent. All to avoid teasing that may or may not happen 12-15 years from now.

When there is no way to a compromise, go with the path that is reversible. If your son is intact and wishes to change that, he can. If your son is criced and wishes he wasn't, you can't glue his foreskin back on.

[Greg B]

I disagree that the "Locker Room" is a valid concern, it just sounds like one to people who do not have good tools to weigh benefits vs costs.

First, you have no way to knowing if this will be an issue. Have you surveyed his peers to see how many of them are circumcsied for sure? What if 60% are and 40% are not? What if he gets teased because he is circumcised?

Even if your son gets teased, there is no way to know how troubling it will be. Will you also do a survey everything other kids wear and use the results to buy clothes for your son, hoping that he does not get teased about his clothes? Will you do a survey of the hair styles most common and insist that her get is hair cut that way only to avoid him getting teased about his hair? How about eye color? What if he has to wear glasses? What if he is too tall or too short?

But, even assuming you can protect him from childhood teasing, and/or that teasing about having a foreskin is significantly more traumatic than say glasses, so you feel compelled to protect him from just that issue of teasing, how do you weigh that against the loss of his human right to bodily integrity? How do you weigh that against taking his chioce away from him based on your fears and speculation? How do you weigh it against the pain and risk? How about the loss of sexual feelings and function for both him and his partner(s)?

Sorry, but to me it is a silly argument to make, and indicates someone who is blinded by irrational fear.

Regards

[evjolin]

yikes--i kind of feel like *most* of you are killing the messenger here! as i mentioned, i am PRO leaving our son intact. i was just looking for some helpful ways to counter my husband's feelings. guess i'll remember not come back to this particular board on MDC.

[aidanraynesmom]

Wow the locker room thing was one of the easier myths to debunk with my DH. FWIW, we didn't know much about circ at the time our DS was born. I regretted it immediately and so does my DH who wanted it done for all the usual male reasons. As soon as I realized I'd made a huge mistake I did a little reading and then took those facts to DH who is now right along with me in feeling pretty strong about leaving our next intact in he happens to be a boy.

When it came to the locker room point I simply asked him a few questions that allowed him to come to his own conclusions. He also had the whole, "I want him to look like me" thing.

If one boy is looking that closely at another boy's penis, who is the one that will likely be the one made fun of?

Do you remember what your dad's looks like?

Most parents start to cover up (we don't but whatever) when the kids are pretty young, too young to have vivid memories as an adult.

And I'm sorry, but if you want your little boy to look like you, you may want to buy him a penis pump.

And the above mentioned reason that there aren't even communal showers anymore.

From one on-the-fence mama to another. Please seriously consider not. I figured it wasn't a big deal if we did even though I knew enough to at least question it. Even though I made the ultimate decision I blame my husband for his portion. I'm guilty and bitter. I'm healing but its taken a while. I can still hear my baby's screams

[aidanraynesmom]

Originally Posted by evjolin

yikes--i kind of feel like *most* of you are killing the messenger here! as i mentioned, i am PRO leaving our son intact. i was just looking for some helpful ways to counter my husband's feelings. guess i'll remember not come back to this particular board on MDC.

Oh please don't run off! Its hard sometimes bc this is a very serious subject and can get people a little heated. To be fair, you do seem a little on the fence about it. That's just the way it came across.

But at least you're only down to that one particular point in the debate! You're miles ahead of some mamas

I hope he comes around. I think maybe some of these replies that seem to be coming at you may be more an attempt to show their irritation at the feelings of your DH. Just a thought, good luck with him! They can be so stubborn sometimes!

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

Odds are high that he wont be the only intact boy. Right now the circ rate vs intact is nearly 50/50 and dropping every year as more and more people learn that circ is not needed and what is lost with circ.

Like a pp said there is no right way to do a wrong thing. You will be taking a very big part of your ds's future sexual function into your hands. Once it is gone it can never be gotten back and that big a decision should be left up to the owner of the penis.

If you look through posts here you will say probably hundreds of posts where the parents dont agree. For the ones in the regrets sticky who let their dh make the choice there is guilt because of it.

Not to mention the hundreds if not thousands of men who deeply resent that their parents made the choice and they are living with the complications that cannot be fixed.

Even if the odds where less than 1% of something going wrong that is way to high because of the potential devastating effects.

With me and many other mothers here who's dh was adamant and wouldnt listen to reason that is when you put your foot down and say over my dead body. Most of those men come to terms with it even if they never come all the way to the intactavist side.

Your dh will love your ds if he is intact and if he dosnt then respectfully he isnt a man I would want to father my child.

[beckyand3littlemonsters]

I really wasn't getting at you honestly it was more a question aimed at your dh's reasoning.

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by evjolin

yikes--i kind of feel like *most* of you are killing the messenger here! as i mentioned, i am PRO leaving our son intact. i was just looking for some helpful ways to counter my husband's feelings. guess i'll remember not come back to this particular board on MDC.

Please don't take it like that ebjolin. I think you have to remember how times have changed since you were in high school. I know when I went, we didn't shower or do anything like that in the locker room and there were few opportunities to see my peers. I believe it's even less common today and there are more intact boys then there were 10 or 15 years ago. As an intact guy I can't say I've ever had a problem.

What part of the country are you in anyway? Perhaps we can dig up some statistics.

[claddaghmom]

Well, one thing you could point out to your husband is that the circumcision rate in America is drastically falling. It is currently around 50% BUT that is due to the still-high numbers in the midwest. In some regions of the US, it is getting close to 10-20%. In other words, there is a huge chance that by the time your son is old enough to be naked in a locker room, he will be the only one missing a foreskin.

The next thing to point out is that routine circumcision does not really exist in the global culture. Canada has cut their rate close to 9%, Europe issued warnings b/c the rate for later circumcisions was 6% and they wanted it closer to 2%...meanwhile it's estimated that 80% of the world is intact.

I would also really work him through the "locker room" argument. This argument is saying you have to permanently, surgically mutilate (have him look up the word in a dictionary if he objects) your child to protect him from teasing or being the "odd one out." So ask him for consistency. Is he going to give his son liposuction in case he is the fat kid? What about a nose job? Perhaps your husband will want to dye his son's hair from birth to highschool?

Don't forget to show him lots of photos and videos of intact men. Almost everyone I meet is surprised to discover that when erect, an intact and a cut man look very similar. (And this little detail often leads to discussions of what it means when a society wants all men to permanently look eroticized).


Observe for yourself the mobility of a real foreskin with these moving gifs:
http://tinyurl.com/38wvfp

The three zones of penile skin:
http://www.foreskin.org/3zones-c.htm

The functions of the foreskin:
http://research.cirp.org/func1.html

Contrast and compare pictures of cut and uncut penises:
http://www.circumstitions.com/Restric/comparison.html

Baby Circumcision Photo Collection:
http://tinyurl.com/3523bz

An excellent comprehensive overview with pictures:
http://wreckingboy.livejournal.com/318545.html

What is lost due to circumcision?
http://www.norm.org/lost.html

Procedure
http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/methods.html
http://lb.redirectingat.com/?id=848X...3slide0001.htm

Rates
http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/bollinger2001/ (American)
http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/USA/ (American)
http://www.courtchallenge.com/refs/rate1m.html (Canadian)
http://www.courtchallenge.com/refs/s...hi-2005-e.html (Canadian)

Welcome to America, Baby! -- 2mins
http://video.yahoo.com/watch/935124/3668656

Video showing a computer generated model of the function of the foreskin during sexual activity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj6UjduMTiU

This page is my favourite, as it is most accurate due to showing real photos and slides to demonstrate how the foreskin works:

http://www.noharmm.org/anatomy.htm

[MammaB21]

I wasn't aware that boys were made to shower in school anymore. We weren't when I was in high school 8 years ago. Possibly in sports, but I'm pretty certain he would still have a choice not to, kwim?

DP is intact and did have some self consciousness about it at that age. I don't think it was from guys, though, but more once he was sexually active. It was something that was easily overcome with an explanation. I can tell you from him that whatever 'teasing' or self image issues that he went through as a teen are now well worth it. Humans are only teenagers for 6 years of their lives. Even IF your son has a rough go of it, odds are he'll be pretty thankful for his whole penis for the other 90% of his life. Also kids are teased for all sorts of things, and physical differences are unfortunately the easiest thing to attack. For me, it's not even close to a valid reason. If we used this as a justification to circ, we'd have to start doing all sorts of cosmetic surgery on kids to keep up. And even then, kids would still be teased.

I have male friends my age who were probably part of the group of boys doing some 'teasing' who are now working on restoration.

My stance is that this is something that is no negotiable. If I had a partner who was pro circ, I'd do as you have done and educate on the situation as much as possible. After that, if their viewpoint hadn't changed I'd let them know that this was something that was not up for discussion. I'd encourage you to continue to try and talk with your husband about this, but to also really think about where you are on the topic. You'll need to find out where you are going to draw the line and simply end the conversation. Please stick to your guns on this, for your sons sake.

[To-Fu]

Originally Posted by evjolin

yikes--i kind of feel like *most* of you are killing the messenger here! as i mentioned, i am PRO leaving our son intact. i was just looking for some helpful ways to counter my husband's feelings. guess i'll remember not come back to this particular board on MDC.

Please stick around! I think a lot of folks were responding to this part of your post:

so, my question is, if we DO end up circ'ing, any advice as far as having a ped vs ob vs. a mohel vs a plastic surgeon???

i am extremely concerned about having it done correctly if we do decide to do it....

It does sound like you're on the fence to me, so I hope that at least some of the comments will be a source of information and support for you. There are some good links stickied in the Resource Thread at the top of the forum if you're looking for more research/info to share with your husband or to settle things in your own mind.

I guess for me, it's all about letting my son make this major decision about his own body for himself. If he gets older and wants to remove his foreskin, he can.

[Jaesun's Dad]

Originally Posted by evjolin

his greatest concern is the "locker room"

If ask your husband how many times he recalls from his childhood instances of boys looking at other boys' penis and making a commentary on it,I pretty much guarantee you the correct answer is: never

#1 rule of the locker rooms is: you don't look

Since more parents are actually putting thought into the decision your son surely will be unlikely to be the only one that still has everything he was born with.

i do have friends who are intact who had very traumatic years because of emotional teasing and trauma

Everyone had traumatic experiences because of teasing. But they aren't teasing about penile surgery, they're teasing about everything but. That's part of growing up. I was teased because I had long hair, because I was scrawny, because I had poor posture, because of the clothes I wore, because I didn't have a girlfriend, because a girl I liked was "homely", because I was friends with Ray or I wasn't friends with Chris ... my son, your son, every dear son to every dear mom and dad will be teased for any of these reasons. They all hurt. I guarantee you that removing the foreskin from his penis is not going to result in any less teasing.

If kids these days are going about looking down in the locker room and making comments about what they see then they're sure a heck of a lot more open minded about such discussions than when I was boy anyway. So ......... (self evident conclusion)

edit: I hope my post doesn't come across as confrontational I see from some of the above you (OP) were a little put off. Just as a guy I really hate the "locker room myth" I hope you just accept my POV as what it is :-) Cheers hope you stick around too..

[billikengirl]

I cannot understand thinking that conformity for its own sake is so important that I would amputate healthy parts of my child (my DH disagrees with me so I feel for you there).

How my son's penis LOOKS is no one's business but his own. I wish more dads could understand that.

I believe it is my right and obligation to protect my child, and I did. I wouldn't stand by and allow (or facilitate) anyonem, even his father, to do such permanent harm my child in any other way--why this one? It can't be undone. I urge you to reconsider compromising over this and remember that it would be your son losing a body part, not you or your husband.

[claddaghmom]

I'd be interested in hearing your husband's view of baby girl circumcision, too. I mean, what about the teasing and emotional trauma experienced by girls? Would he give a baby girl breast implants to prevent her from being teased in the locker room?

This is just not one of the "better" arguments for amputating babies...so I wonder what is really going on under the surface here.

[brant31]

Originally Posted by evjolin

i want to leave son intact, dh does not

he still not convinced and his greatest concern is the "locker room" which i do believe is a valid concern.

The locker room MYTH is called the locker room MYTH because it's more or less an urban legend. Everyone claims to have heard stories of unbearable teasing of boys with foreskins, but no one ever seems to be able to come forward with evidence of what this unbearable teasing was. Or whether it indeed scarred someone for life and negatively affected his academic performance. Or caused him to be celibate for life.

That said, why do you "believe it's a valid concern?" What would this teasing look/sound like? "Haha, your parents loved you and kept you intact!" "Haha, you still have more of your penis than I do!" "Haha, your penis doesn't have a scar around it!"

Honestly, I endured 6 years of gym showers and cannot fathom what the dreaded teasing would have sounded like. It doesn't add up. Unless your husband was one of the bullies, I imagine he doesn't know either.

If you think about it, much school-age taunting is based in envy. It's true of pubic hair (yes, the first one can get teased) and no doubt it's true of foreskin.

i'm just not sure what the stats are in our area for intact v. circ'd boys, and i do have friends who are intact who had very traumatic years because of emotional teasing and trauma.

How would the statistics be a reliable indicator of boorish behavior? You lost me there. I do happen to know the stats from my high school days, because circ was openly discussed. The rate was about 80/20 cut/uncut, and the uncuts were definitely considered the advantaged ones. I can't remember a single person defending circumcision -- all thought it was pointless.

As for your friends who were traumatized... did they fare worse than the kids who were traumatized for having braces or glasses? Honestly, being kidded for having nature's advantage (which anyone knows in this day and age of the internet) is the easiest of all taunts to ignore or to turn right back on the bully. Still, "traumatized" over having a normal penis sounds more like a personal problem and a personality flaw. It was doomed to happen for one reason or another, even if he was circumcised.

You should assume that your son, on the other hand, will be better equipped to put any teasing in perspective, whether it's over freckles or big ears. Otherwise, be prepared to have a prosthetic foreskin on hand (like in that episode of "Friends") in case he gets teased for being circumcised.

[evjolin]

thanks--some of your answers were very helpful....i feel better armed to continue discussing this with DH :-)