or Connect
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Pregnancy and Birth › Understanding Circumcision › ugh....cannot come to an agreement....
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

ugh....cannot come to an agreement.... - Page 2

post #21 of 48
there's also this article which probably explains the locker-room reason, which is a pretty bad reason for him to permanently alter his child, which you know already

this is for you to read: the vulnerability of men: http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

hth,
sus
post #22 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by brant31 View Post
The locker room MYTH is called the locker room MYTH because it's more or less an urban legend. Everyone claims to have heard stories of unbearable teasing of boys with foreskins, but no one ever seems to be able to come forward with evidence of what this unbearable teasing was. Or whether it indeed scarred someone for life and negatively affected his academic performance. Or caused him to be celibate for life.

That said, why do you "believe it's a valid concern?" What would this teasing look/sound like? "Haha, your parents loved you and kept you intact!" "Haha, you still have more of your penis than I do!" "Haha, your penis doesn't have a scar around it!"

Honestly, I endured 6 years of gym showers and cannot fathom what the dreaded teasing would have sounded like. It doesn't add up. Unless your husband was one of the bullies, I imagine he doesn't know either.

If you think about it, much school-age taunting is based in envy. It's true of pubic hair (yes, the first one can get teased) and no doubt it's true of foreskin.




How would the statistics be a reliable indicator of boorish behavior? You lost me there. I do happen to know the stats from my high school days, because circ was openly discussed. The rate was about 80/20 cut/uncut, and the uncuts were definitely considered the advantaged ones. I can't remember a single person defending circumcision -- all thought it was pointless.

As for your friends who were traumatized... did they fare worse than the kids who were traumatized for having braces or glasses? Honestly, being kidded for having nature's advantage (which anyone knows in this day and age of the internet) is the easiest of all taunts to ignore or to turn right back on the bully. Still, "traumatized" over having a normal penis sounds more like a personal problem and a personality flaw. It was doomed to happen for one reason or another, even if he was circumcised.

You should assume that your son, on the other hand, will be better equipped to put any teasing in perspective, whether it's over freckles or big ears. Otherwise, be prepared to have a prosthetic foreskin on hand (like in that episode of "Friends") in case he gets teased for being circumcised.
I agree that teasing about being intact is mainly a myth. For that matter, a lot of "school teasing myths" are just that (another example is the myth that a boy with a unisex name will be teased a lot for it, which from my experience [look at my signature] happened only once [and the one who did it was notorious for teasing people about anything worth teasing about]).
post #23 of 48
This is a link for just you to read; don't show it to your dh:

http://www.noharmm.org/feminist.htm

Today, it is often the more passive, compliant mother who will allow her son to be circumcised, acquiescing to the demands of medical professionals, husband, family or other outside sources - probably against her better judgment. The more self-determined, confident mother is more likely to insist that her son remain intact, since she has the strength to withstand the outside pressures of a circumcision oriented society. ***
post #24 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by evjolin View Post
i want to leave son intact, dh does not (sound like a broken record i'm sure).

he has read the research that i have given him from several great sources. he still not convinced and his greatest concern is the "locker room" which i do believe is a valid concern. i'm just not sure what the stats are in our area for intact v. circ'd boys, and i do have friends who are intact who had very traumatic years because of emotional teasing and trauma.

that being said, i want the decision to be our child's, not mine.

so, my question is, if we DO end up circ'ing, any advice as far as having a ped vs ob vs. a mohel vs a plastic surgeon???

i am extremely concerned about having it done correctly if we do decide to do it....
Ok, Teasing can now go both ways. I've heard of boys now being teased for having a "muffin top." If someone is going to get teased, at least they should be the way they were born, not teased for some horrific act done to them.
People used to tease me for my last name. I could handle the teasing, so it always ended in good fun. It really depends on the kid and how he/she handles teasing. I doubt there would EVER be teasing about that, but a resilient child will handle any teasing with ease. A child who is susceptible to teasing is going to get teased for any number of reasons..most of which you wouldn't want to surgically alter.
post #25 of 48

This is not an attack :)

Just to be clear, I think most of the replies you're getting (including this one) are meant as arguments to your DHs line of thinking as well as to speak to any of your possible concerns of the "Locker Room Phenomenon". The LRP is a rather curious phenomenon indeed: it is one of the only instances ever believed where young boys loose their more natural homophobic instincts to become curious of one another's penis's, so much so that they become comfortable enough to speak outloud about them... in front of lots of other boys even! (JOKE)

Seriously, I think that people need to think about that theory a bit more. I think that there is something to consider here, but it's not weather or not other boys will tease them. I find it hard to believe that any other boys would ever comment openly on another boys penis in ANY public setting; it's certainly not something I've ever once experienced or even heard of actually happening. I think the actual issue that many boys will deal with is their own insecurities about the size, shape, or intactness of their penis compared with others (and probably SIZE for most). I'm sure lots of boys grow up insecure about their penis for all these reasons and more, and I believe that will happen no matter what choice is made about circumcision. I look at this issue as one of life's lessons, and it's something that I believe most women are forced to deal with too at some point (breast size, ankle size, nose shape...etc).

Furthermore, there is always the risk whenever parents try to protect against one *potential* source of emotional trauma or neurosis; they can very well end up creating others or even exacerbating them inadvertently. I can tell you personally, that being intact NEVER once in any way led to any insecurities, or any teasing from others. Sure I had plenty of insecurities just like any other kid, and plenty of teasing... just never about my foreskin
If you and DH cannot come to an agreement, might I suggest that you need a tie breaker 3rd vote to solve the issue: your SON!
good luck with DH, hang in there...
post #26 of 48
The way to deal with teasing is by talking to our kids about why they are being teased ie the other kids insecurities. If we teach them how to deal with teasing to start out then they will have ways of dealing with it.
post #27 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by mama24-7 View Post
there's also this article which probably explains the locker-room reason, which is a pretty bad reason for him to permanently alter his child, which you know already

this is for you to read: the vulnerability of men: http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

hth,
sus
Very good link btw, I couldn't agree much more. I think he really hits the nail square on the head. Thanks for sharing
post #28 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by mama24-7 View Post
I never needed convincing, but there's a lot of good points about men in there for women who do need to bring their partners/husbands on board.

Maybe it's just because I'm a pretty liberal hippie guy and tend to have hippie liberal friends but when I asked a few close male friends of mine their opinion on circumcision I discovered 1) every one of them was circumcised and 2) without exception they are all pretty p!ssed off about it ...

The only one that was hardcore pro circ was my father. One of his points of reference were some of his old buddies whom were never circumcised I guess got together one night (no doubt lots of alcohol was involved) and at some late age in life all made a pact to go get the operation. From what I gather all were at least in their 40s if not older. They all had complications from the operation. My dad got this message from that "best to have it done when they're an infant" I got this message from it (and I love my dad but I've never shied away from calling it as I see it) "be very careful what you're agreeing to when you're getting drunk and forming pacts with your pals"

Anyhoo ... I like that link, it's good info about men psyche with a good amount of humor that makes it a good read :-)
post #29 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by K703 View Post
I agree that teasing about being intact is mainly a myth. For that matter, a lot of "school teasing myths" are just that (another example is the myth that a boy with a unisex name will be teased a lot for it, which from my experience [look at my signature] happened only once [and the one who did it was notorious for teasing people about anything worth teasing about]).
OT: I never intended to give my children unisex names, but my oldest is also a Kelly. He's in 11th grade, and has never been teased about it at all.
post #30 of 48
Quote:
OT: I never intended to give my children unisex names, but my oldest is also a Kelly. He's in 11th grade, and has never been teased about it at all.
OT2: I wish I had y'all around when I was advocating for the name Kiran for our boy ... "sounds too much like Karen" :-( It's his middle name now but I was really attached to it. The name we have now though is cool, I like it's Korean translation though and it suits him, and he definitely responds to it but now I get the "oh take a perfectly normal name and bastardize the spelling" comments too ...

... sorry back to your regularly scheduled discussion -
post #31 of 48
I can weigh in on the locker room thing. I have 2 teens one in elem and a toddler. My first 3 are circ'd ... why because I was stupid ( yes thats the reason and I can say that about myslelf)
I had a LONG conversation with my older 2 about the whole locker room thing. Neither of them could tell me which of their friends are and arnt both are student athletes and have showered. They told me its an unwritten rule you dont look at another "dudes junk" ( their EXACT words). Im in rural MD with a high circ rate. My little guy is happily intact with no issues. I have grown TONS as a mother.
Everyone on this board is a wealth of info but I wanted to weigh in the locker room thing
post #32 of 48
Teasing is not about a physical trait, it is about the victim having a vulnerable personality. Your DS could be the epitome of physical perfection but if he acts vulnerable he will get teased for something. On the other hand your DS could be the goofiest kid on the planet, but if he doesn't act vulnerable he will be left alone.

This article will explain this. http://wondertime.go.com/learning/ar...our-child.html

Men who say they had a hard time in the locker room b/c of their intact status, most likely reacted to any mention of their status in a defensive vulnerable manner. Once the teaser found a sore point they would keep pushing that button. As long as you don't raise your DS with the idea that being intact is weird he won't react about it.
post #33 of 48
If you tell where you are generally maybe someone can look up the circ rate for you.

When we go to the swim team pool, the adults will get nudie to change and shower if desired but the teens do not and this trickles down to the younger kids. They do convolutions to change into swimsuits without actually removing underwear, etc. I think it has to do with cell phone cameras.

If your husband does not want your son to be teased, he will do better by putting him in 5 years of Taekwondo than chopping off his foreskin.
post #34 of 48
Quote:
and his greatest concern is the "locker room" which i do believe is a valid concern.
Dh says that isn't a valid argument because guys in locker rooms (and restrooms) are avoiding looking at other people's penises. And if you do look, they make fun of you.
post #35 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by claddaghmom View Post
Well, one thing you could point out to your husband is that the circumcision rate in America is drastically falling. It is currently around 50% BUT that is due to the still-high numbers in the midwest. In some regions of the US, it is getting close to 10-20%. In other words, there is a huge chance that by the time your son is old enough to be naked in a locker room, he will be the only one missing a foreskin.

The next thing to point out is that routine circumcision does not really exist in the global culture. Canada has cut their rate close to 9%, Europe issued warnings b/c the rate for later circumcisions was 6% and they wanted it closer to 2%...meanwhile it's estimated that 80% of the world is intact.
Can you post links to the percentages? I want to email a friend who thinks mostly everyone circs but every study I found give much higher circ rates than you quoted. This is what I found, but I don't want to email it to her because she will say it proves her point, I think? I need links that will prove her wrong. Thanks so much!!!

Canada:

In 2009, the Public Health Agency of Canada reported a rate of circumcision of male babies of 31.9% for Canada overall for 2006-2007 [Canada, 2009]. Rate was 44.3% in Alberta, 43.7% in Ontario, 39.2% in Prince Edward Island, 35.6% in Saskatchewan, 31.6% in Manitoba, 30.2% in British Columbia, 18.0% in New Brunswick, 12.3% in Quebec, 9.7% in Northwest Territories, 6.8% in Nova Scotia, and lack of reliable information for Nunavut, Newfoundland and Labrador.


USA:

In the USA the rate of infant circumcision has always been high. In 2002 the number of infants circumcised before discharge from the birth hospital was 1.2 million [Kozak et al., 2002], as compared with 142,000 subsequently (being 93,000 up to age 15 and 49,000 after age 15) [Owings & Kozak, 1998]. In a 2008 report, hospital discharge data in Maryland found 75.3% of 96,457 male infants were circumcised after birth and survey data from 4,273 mothers showed a rate of 82.3% [Cheng et al., 2008]. Rate was lower amongst Hispanic and Asian infants and thus higher in non-Hispanic White and Black infants.

In earlier surveys, rates have been recorded by the CDC's National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) [National, 2003]. Since only those circumcisions recorded are included in these statistics, the data are under-estimates [Schoen, 2006b], and are more useful for determining trends rather than absolute rates. The statement of an overall rate of 65.3% is thus much lower than the true rate [Schoen, 2006b].

Despite being underestimates some trends can be noted in NCHS data. For Whites there was no change over the years studied (65.8 vs 65.5%). For Blacks it rose from 57.9% to 64.4%. The rates recorded in the north-east region were steady at 70%, while rates rose in the mid-west (80%) and South (70%). For the western region rates have been falling due to the influx of Hispanics (50% of all births, so diluting out the overall rate in California to 35%). Overall the statistics show an increase in circumcision rate for Non-Hispanic Whites. In the West individual hospital data have shown, moreover, the rate for non-Hispanic Whites is in fact 75-80%. Interestingly, for the next generation of Hispanics, 29% of boys are circumcised (San Francisco General Hospital data).
post #36 of 48
Well, if you feel like discussing it is likely to change his mind, then by all means bring on the figures and studies.

But if he is unwilling to be open-minded regardless of the facts and leave this decision up to your future son, then I would as peacefully as possible let him know that this is simply not going to happen and that it's the one issue that you are in no way going to compromise on, end of discussion---it's not up for debate, it's an issue of preserving your baby's genital integrity and you hope that some day he will understand why you feel so strongly about it. Until then, stay strong, mama!

Then continue to repeat that as necessary, and don't allow your son out of your sight if you feel like your partner is likely to arrange a circumcision without your consent. I hope that it works out that he respects your decision on this.
post #37 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowqueen View Post
In earlier surveys, rates have been recorded by the CDC's National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) [National, 2003]. Since only those circumcisions recorded are included in these statistics, the data are under-estimates [Schoen, 2006b], and are more useful for determining trends rather than absolute rates. The statement of an overall rate of 65.3% is thus much lower than the true rate [Schoen, 2006b].
bold mine

I would be very suspect of this data, and I have my suspicions about where you found it. Dr Schoen has a clear agenda to promote universal male circumcision. He even writes poetry about (no, I'm not jocking.)

You can find a fair amount of information here
http://www.circumstitions.com/
post #38 of 48
Repeat to him over and over:

"I just can't let you do that to our son."
post #39 of 48
Here are the most up to date statistics that I have. Unfortunatly they dont update them that often.

Statistics:http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/USA/
Quote:
Year 2006 circ rates by region:
Northeast Region 63.6%
North Central Region 77.9%
Southern Region 55.3%
Western Region 33.8%
All Regions 56.1%
Statistics by state:http://www.cirp.org/library/statisti...taterates2004/

Older Statistics back to the 30's:http://www.circs.org/reviews/rates/usa.html

Statistics graph by race back in 01:http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/bollinger2003


Map statistic: http://www.circumstitions.com/Maps.html


Canada statistics up to 01:http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/Canada/


Statistics world wide: http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/majority.htm
Quote:
79 million American infant circs
9 million American child or adult circs
13 million Canada, UK, New Zealand & Australia infant circs
27 million rest of world infant circs
44 million child or adult circs other parts of world
315 million Muslim child/adolescent circumcisions
487 million = TOTAL MEN CIRCUMCISED WORLDWIDE (18%)
2 billion 160 million = TOTAL MEN INTACT WORLDWIDE (82%)

2 billion 647 million = Total Men Living Worldwide
post #40 of 48

Dh really gets it!

He is still reluctant, but as I have posted before, has come so far around, considering he started from the "it's just done" point of view. He now agrees that he wouldn't want to have it done, even if I just left it up to him at this point. He also admitted, that while life would have been a whole lot easier for him if I had never presented an opposing view, he does not regret being more informed about the subject. He is still a little panicky about the whole thing, since our son is due in 2 weeks now, but I think (and he agreed with this) that it is all pretty much because there is this deep nagging feeling that either our son's penis is "messed up" or dh's is. I think it all boils down to insecurity. He thought this operation was done to make him somehow "better" in that department, but to find out it really has no point is so hard. We are beyond presenting information at this point. He knows it is all about emotion now, and what he needs to come to terms with. He miserably said "I just wish if they couldn't come up with a good medical reason to do it, that it would not be legal."

I was just like "hmmm, good point honey" (meanwhile, inside ) I really love dh and it's times like this that he reminds me why I married him.

I wish the rates were dropping faster in this country. I wish people would just think about this more before sacrificing their sons... but at least I know that in our tiny little corner of America, things will be peaceful and gentle, as nature intended.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Understanding Circumcision
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Pregnancy and Birth › Understanding Circumcision › ugh....cannot come to an agreement....