DH is Muslim and says the Foreskin has to go :(

[Bebegim]

Any non-circumcizing muslims or jews out there? My dh refuses to discuss the subject and I just trying to collect as much info as I can to try and prepare for an open hearted discussion! So far Im hearing, my way or the high way from, but hes a softie, so if I pull enough stuff together... I might at least get him to open up about the subject!!

Thanks in advance!!!!
Lauren

[zoebird]

quick google search produced:

http://www.quran.org/khatne.htm -- a quick article that asserts that the Koran does not state that circumcision should be practiced;

http://www.quran.org/CIRCUMCISION.HTM -- a link from the above article that goes into the legal arguments for and against circumcision of both males and females, written by a islamic law expert.

i found the article compelling and interesting, though long and not really written for a non-muslim (there were things i had to look up).

this was the most relevant quote:

Muslims systematically practice male circumcision. However, the Koran makes no mention of circumcision. On the contrary, one can find verses which can be interpreted as being against circumcision:

• Our Lord, You did not create all this in vain (3:191).
• He perfected everything He created (32:7).
• [The devil said]: "I will mislead them, and I will create in them false desires; I will order them to slit the ears of cattles, and to deface the fair nature created by God" (4:119).
• One can deduce from the first verses that the foreskin is an integral part of the human body created by God, and that one should not imagine that by cutting it one is perfecting the work of God. The third verse considers the alteration of Nature as obedience to the Devil.

the article mostly states that it was common practice to circumcise in Mohammed's time, and has continued on because of his statements on it, but that both science and reason--as well as the koran itself--can lend a stronger argument against this common practice (for boys and girls) according to the tradition of how muslim law works.

if your husband is willing to read the article--which is titled "To Mutilate in the Name of Jehova or Allah" and therefore against circumcisions of males and females--then it might convince him to keep his son in tact.

i found it to be a fascinating read.

good luck to you!

[ammiga]

We're a non-circing Jewish family (conservative). I am pregnant now, and we don't know the gender of our baby that is due in July. At first, dh wanted to circ our baby if it turns out to be a boy, but we had some really good conversations about it. For us, it really started with the knowledge that no subject was off limits. Neither of us ever gets to say, "I'm doing this to/with our child, and any discussion about it is off limits". We both respect each other enough to hold a conversation about anything, and really listen to what the other has to say about it.

We aren't the sort of people who do things just because someone says so (I guess, even if that someone is god). Everything needs to have a good reason that we reach through research and the well-being of our children at heart. We don't vax either, and we didn't reach that decision lightly.

I sat dh down and told him that we needed to talk about this, and start from a neutral place. We would weigh all of the information that we could find, and make a decision from there.

Although we are conservative Jews, we don't follow every rule mandated to us. We don't keep kosher, we don't strictly observe the sabbath, etc. Although we do believe in our religion, we do pick and choose some of what we choose to follow, because of how it fits with our beliefs and lives. Permanently removing a major piece of our son's organs, just because the bible says to, was not an option.

I don't know much about the Muslim religion, but I can say that the Jewish religion has come quite a long way with making men and women more equal, even when not allowed by Jewish law. Women are now given the right to end a marriage, Jewish girls have a bat mitzvah, etc. What if in an effort to equalize males and females, rabbis now started mandating female circumcision? Everyone would be up at arms. Maybe this is a time that the males should be given the same right to bodily integrity as females. The right to make decisions regarding their own bodies, and the right to make that covenant for themselves, if they so choose.

Modern Jews also do not follow all of the mandates of our religion, but find ways to symbolize our observance of rules. For instance, on Passover, we no longer sacrifice an animal, but have a roasted shank bone on our seder plate. Why not find a humane way to symbolize this covenant without cutting off a part of our son's body? Slowly, this concept is catching on with Jews, and I am proud to be a part of the group that is asking questions and making our rabbi think about it.

I don't know how much of this applies to how your dh follows his religion or if any of this speaks to modern Muslims, but maybe it will give you a place to start.

[Bebegim]

wow! great info!! thanks to you both!!!

i will pull together as much info as I can before we find out the sex, so we can discuss it. I did read a lot about the religion before we got married and I really felt shocked with how my perception of it was and what it really seemed like. I even taught DH a few things. He is turkish, so we say its like muslim-light. a lot of our friends still drink and even eat pork... and i dont know a single one who prays 5 times. not one. besides my FIL.

i was so terrified when i learned muslims have huge parties when the boys are between like 3-7 to remove the foreskin. i watched a few youtube movies. those poor babies were so terrified. and the mothers were hysterical. of course, i was hysterical just watching. and dh said his mother cried for like 3 days before and after.

from a cursory look online, it seems that removing the foreskin is considered important, but not a requirement. There was a bit about adult males who are converting and if they feared they would be hurt in anyway by circumcision, then it was not required... so, if a grown man is scared, he doesnt have too... but the baby, who cant speak or the child who crying hysterically... So, I think there is definitely enough evidence out there to show my dh there are two sides to the story.

Thanks to you both!!!!

[zoebird]

you are welcome. i hope that he is convinced.

it's so sad to me that this is done at all.

[pdx.mothernurture]

Originally Posted by ammiga

Why not find a humane way to symbolize this covenant without cutting off a part of our son's body? Slowly, this concept is catching on with Jews, and I am proud to be a part of the group that is asking questions and making our rabbi think about it.

I just wanted to say that while I'm not Jewish, reading your post made me remember THIS; both the intro and the conclusion still make me teary every time I read it.

To the OP, congrats on your pregnancy and I just want to commend you for your courage and positive attitude with regard to discussing this issue with your dh. Best of luck and keep us updated. If you need any specific information on circumcision risks, foreskin functions, etc. don't hesitate to post in CAC. Your post got moved here because we can't address the religious component over there.

Jen

[Galatea]

I wanted to add that often for Turkish people, the importance of circumcision is not so much about being Muslim as it is being Turkish... you are likely in for an uphill battle, and your battle will perhaps not end when the baby is 3 months or 1 year, since the ritual circumcision in Turkey is about age 6.

[claddaghmom]

If you use facebook, there is a big fb group for Muslims who do not believe in circ.

[Liquesce]

Quran.org is not a resource that either can or should be used to try to convince any even reasonably traditional Muslim of something in their own religion; it is a site operated by what most will consider a highly deviant sect.

When it comes down to it, most Muslims really do not care whether or not the Qur'an mentions circumcision specifically. It is clearly dealt with in the hadith. That the organizers of the linked site oppose the inclusion of the hadith in the body of source material used for making religious judgments and recommendations is a whole other issue which, in practice, makes their point of view more than likely to be irrelevant to your spouse. And while the latter link may well be written by someone educated in Islamic law, his argument does not by any stretch follow any system of Islamic law. The crux of his argument seems to be that what is true of female circumcision should also be true of male circumcision -- an argument which has a certain obvious logic, but which refuses to deal with the very different religious source material on the two respective subjects. In short: this just isn't something you can google and come up with a paper somewhere to be used to tell a Muslim what their religion has to say about circumcision is wrong. There isn't one.

What can be said is that there is no requirement of infant/childhood circumcision, there is no sin upon a person for being uncircumcised, there is no requirement of circumcision to be considered a Muslim or to fulfill the absolute obligations of a Muslim, and that you just want to leave it until your child is old enough to make a sound decision about it for himself.

Good luck to you.

[wombatclay]

Wow, I am Muslim and never heard of any one delaying the circumcision until age 6 at least not for any kind or religious reason. It is favorable to do it on the 8th day after birth.

In this case, I think the heart of the matter is the Turkish cultural element. Not the Muslim religion element. Circumcision in Turkey is generally done when the boy is around 5 years old and is a HUGE family event with a lot of social "weight". Sharing reasons against circumcision from a religious perspective may not be as effective as approaching it from a Turkish perspective. Unfortunately, the Turkish medical establishment has only gone so far as to say that circumcision is best done in a hospital at birth (though people still throw parties later on).

How connected is your husband to his Turkish heritage? How open is he to going against family tradition in general? Would he be satisfied with holding a party when your son was 5 or 6 that didn't include circumcision? Is there a Turkish community center where you could ask about alternatives? Perhaps you could just tell your partner that you would agree to a traditional circumcision (some turkish boys are not circumcised till 10 years or so) and then you'd have 6-10 years to deal with the subject?

Good luck... a religious arguement would probably help but I think that if you can find non-circumcising Turkish families here in the US then that might be your best option.

[zoebird]

Originally Posted by Liquesce

Quran.org is not a resource that either can or should be used to try to convince any even reasonably traditional Muslim of something in their own religion; it is a site operated by what most will consider a highly deviant sect.

thanks Liquesce. i tried to run it down, but didn't have the time to look into it too carefully.

What can be said is that there is no requirement of infant/childhood circumcision, there is no sin upon a person for being uncircumcised, there is no requirement of circumcision to be considered a Muslim or to fulfill the absolute obligations of a Muslim, and that you just want to leave it until your child is old enough to make a sound decision about it for himself.

i think this is what i took away from the article writer's argument. i think it is also true of the jewish customs. that parents can opt in or out, and by opting out, it has no impact on the ability to be jewish or practice judaism or be 'right with God.'

thanks for your insight about the web site.

[tlh]

Originally Posted by Liquesce

What can be said is that there is no requirement of infant/childhood circumcision, there is no sin upon a person for being uncircumcised, there is no requirement of circumcision to be considered a Muslim or to fulfill the absolute obligations of a Muslim, and that you just want to leave it until your child is old enough to make a sound decision about it for himself.

That's what I was going to say.It's more for men and women than children.

"Circumcision is a sunnah for the men and a makrumah for the women". (Note the reference to men and women: nothing about boys and girls.) The term sunnah means customary or traditional; the term makrumah means meritorious. The most you could conclude is that circumcision was customary for men and meritorious for women, and thus desirable for both but obligatory for neither.

[blessedwithboys]

i saw this on new posts and wish to ask a technical question if i may...newborn babies circed in hospital are quite often not given pain relief, but after the newborn period babies are often put under general anesthesia. we all know why thats screwy, but i guessi'm wondering how its done on a 6-10yo child? is a circ really performed at a party, like a jewish bris on the 8th day? or is the poor child allowed the "dignity" of being operated on by a surgeon under anesthesia and then brought to the party after his "recovery"?

i hope its not too intrusive for me to ask that here, i am just utterly horrified at the thought...

[cappuccinosmom]

Wow, I am Muslim and never heard of any one delaying the circumcision until age 6 at least not for any kind or religious reason. It is favorable to do it on the 8th day after birth.

In dh's country everybody, Christian and Muslim, are circed in late childhood/early adolescence (and girls are also mutilated at that time). Clearly some aspects of circ. are purely cultural.

Healthcare workers who perform circs will use local anaesthetics but there are plenty of folks who have it done by some rural "medicine man", and dh has seen (as a rural nurse) the practice done with a sharp piece of pottery in filthy conditions.

[Liquesce]

I have personally known people who were circed at about 5 or 6 years old; I have never personally heard of anyone having general anesthesia for the procedure though.

I've also never really encountered the celebratory aspect of it though ... in the communities I know personally it's just something that is done, not something with much ritual attached. So it's usually done by a doctor with little fanfare, regardless of the age or specifics involved. YMMV.