At what age is CIO no longer dangerous?

[dislocator3972]

Does anyone know where to find RESEARCH about the physical repercussions of CIO at different ages?

Obviously, letting a 3 week old CIO is different than a 3 year old, 13 year old, 30 year old. But when does it change? When does letting a little one cry themselves to sleep become less traumatic? Not to be a downer, but I know that crying myself to sleep in high school was sad, but not physically painful, and was usually brought about by hormones instead of inducing crazy hormone spikes.

I'm not interested in *doing* it, I'm just wondering if all the research is referencing only newborns (all I've seen) or if some research was done with older babes. I've heard that the dangers are less black and white after about 6 months, but I've never seen that verified.

Has anyone seen/heard about this?

[Abraisme]

Had to delete..

[dislocator3972]

Abra you have exactly 1000 posts! There should be confetti or something!

[claddaghmom]

Well, some of the primary issues with extended or stressful crying are related to endrocrine function, neurological damage/impairment and conditioning. So I guess maybe when the 1st stage of rapid brain development is complete? (5yrs?)

Then again, we know that trauma can affect people of all ages. And what is tolerated by one person can be very traumatic to another person.

I know you presented an example of a teen crying at night. But is that really comparable to what people call CIO? Cry it out is when someone in authority forces you into a situation you don't want to be in, and so you cry in an attempt to communicate or out of frustration/fear/stress.

To make the example more comparable, you could say, is it damaging for a teen to be locked into a room against her will, and cry about it?

[2boyzmama]

I think it varies by child, and their cognitive awareness. My 3 year old sometiems cries when it's bed time. But he *knows*. He knows that he's not in trouble, he knows that mommy doesn't leave, he knows that it's just bed time. I know that he's not hungry, not thirsty, he's had lots of love and attention all day. I know that he's basically just throwing a tantrum. So I explain to him that it is bedtime now, that mommy will see him when the sun comes up, and I lay him in his bed. If his cry changes from an "I'm mad" cry to anything else, I go back in. When he's almost asleep, I go in, cover him up, snuggle for a minute or two, and leave him again. I still respond to his cries overnight if he wakes up, even if it's just to tell him that it's not morning yet and he needs to go back to sleep. Sometimes I'll nurse him for a minute or two, just depends on how awake he is, what the day had been like (stressful in any way), etc.

I started handling bedtime like this with both of my boys sometime between their first and second birthdays, whenever they seemed cognitively able to understand the concept of bedtime.

[briome]

There is a difference when a person is forced to stay in a place/room/crib/ against their will. I DO think that is a major part of CIO and its emotional effect. Just crying does happen, just crying intentionaly alone happens also with children. CIO refers to a sleep training technique of isolation and no response. It is important to make sure that is exactly what you are talking about...not just a person being upset and alone but a person being purposefully isolted and avoided to create a certain sleep response. I don't think it is fair to compare this to a child/adult who CAN control their enviroment enough to -leave the room, turn on the light and read a book, get up and walk around, directly talk to the 'gate keeper' (parent) if you know what I mean. (I still think locking anyone -esp alone and with intent to alarm- in a space is very upsetting and could potentional create severe mental health issues)

Is is better when a loving family member does it?
Is is better when a child understands what you want from him/ can conceptualize time?
Is it worse when sleep is associated with distress and isolation, regardless of age or developmental stage?

Dr. James McKenna is a co-sleeping resercher http://www.nd.edu/~jmckenn1/lab/ but I am sure you can extrapolate some of the information to avoiding CIO. I think it would be unethical to study CIO on purpose (intentionaly creating a stressful enviroment in a child never left alone to sleep at different ages..)

Long term effects of co-sleeping/not CIO from his site- http://www.nd.edu/~jmckenn1/lab/longterm.html

Of course it is quite obvious how I feel about this, and we are a little more forceful with our 5 year old on sleeping expectations but never to the isolation/unresponsive point....even if you could prove to me that there would be no long term emotional damage. It just feels wrong.

Dr

[BlueWolf]

Crying is not a bad thing.

CIO is a bad thing when you're trying to force an infant into a situation that they're just not ready to handle.

But crying is not bad and we should not try to prevent all crying all the time. In the right situations, crying can reduce stress. Crying can be therapeutic.

[texmati]

I dunno... I have, as an adult, cried so much and so uncontrollably that I felt that it effected me physically. I can't think of a single time-- as a child, teen, or adult, that I have been *left* alone to cry. I've cried alone, sure, but never when I could or wanted to have someone I loved near me.

I'm not sure what you mean by dangerous, but I feel that it would always be cruel and unnatural. Would you consider CIO if you hadn't read about it in a book or on the internet? I feel it goes against human nature/behavior to do that to anyone- child, adult, stranger, loved one ect.

[Abraisme]

Originally Posted by dislocator3972

Abra you have exactly 1000 posts! There should be confetti or something!

[tzs]

i believe there have been studies on CIO because coincidentaly enough, my friend who's hubby is a phd student in neurology just left a message on my phone about it (it's been popping up in discussion lately among other friends.)

i have to get the complete info but from what he said they did a study on 7-9 month olds and found that after 4 months there was no difference between the sleep regulation of the CIO and non-CIO babies although the CIO babies achieved it faster.

the thing that kind of shocked me is that apparently, depression was lower in the....CIO babies. now, i'm not sure why this would be or how in the heck they measure baby depression but it's shocking enough that i'm going to have to get the source and read for myself.

(on the upside...he also had found research that shows that swaddling improves gross motor development.)

[wombatclay]

Moving to Family Bed/Nightime Parenting in the hopes that someone will have the research you need.

[dislocator3972]

Originally Posted by claddaghmom

Well, some of the primary issues with extended or stressful crying are related to endrocrine function, neurological damage/impairment and conditioning. So I guess maybe when the 1st stage of rapid brain development is complete? (5yrs?)

Then again, we know that trauma can affect people of all ages. And what is tolerated by one person can be very traumatic to another person.

I know you presented an example of a teen crying at night. But is that really comparable to what people call CIO? Cry it out is when someone in authority forces you into a situation you don't want to be in, and so you cry in an attempt to communicate or out of frustration/fear/stress.

To make the example more comparable, you could say, is it damaging for a teen to be locked into a room against her will, and cry about it?

You're right, crying alone at older ages might not be parallel examples. I'm not sure there really is a parallel example of exactly what CIO is. Even a teen would be able to deduce whether or not the authority figures were still in the house, and the teen would have past experience to help him or her analyze safety risks. hmm.

Originally Posted by briome

There is a difference when a person is forced to stay in a place/room/crib/ against their will. I DO think that is a major part of CIO and its emotional effect. Just crying does happen, just crying intentionaly alone happens also with children. CIO refers to a sleep training technique of isolation and no response. It is important to make sure that is exactly what you are talking about...not just a person being upset and alone but a person being purposefully isolted and avoided to create a certain sleep response. I don't think it is fair to compare this to a child/adult who CAN control their enviroment enough to -leave the room, turn on the light and read a book, get up and walk around, directly talk to the 'gate keeper' (parent) if you know what I mean. (I still think locking anyone -esp alone and with intent to alarm- in a space is very upsetting and could potentional create severe mental health issues)

Is is better when a loving family member does it?
Is is better when a child understands what you want from him/ can conceptualize time?
Is it worse when sleep is associated with distress and isolation, regardless of age or developmental stage?

Dr. James McKenna is a co-sleeping resercher http://www.nd.edu/~jmckenn1/lab/ but I am sure you can extrapolate some of the information to avoiding CIO. I think it would be unethical to study CIO on purpose (intentionaly creating a stressful enviroment in a child never left alone to sleep at different ages..)

Long term effects of co-sleeping/not CIO from his site- http://www.nd.edu/~jmckenn1/lab/longterm.html

Of course it is quite obvious how I feel about this, and we are a little more forceful with our 5 year old on sleeping expectations but never to the isolation/unresponsive point....even if you could prove to me that there would be no long term emotional damage. It just feels wrong.

Dr

Thanks for the links. I know a lot of parents who wait until their baby is 6 months or so, and then begin the sleep training. But nothing I have read about CIO/sleep training/infant sleep suggests that this is somehow safer. I'm sure the MDC is not the place to go to find pro-CIO stuff, but I thought someone might have seen it or might know where to find it.

Thankfully, DH and I are on the same page and perfectly happy to keep parenting our daughter to sleep, but I would feel more comfortable at playgroup if I knew that their babies were ok.

And really, if I were my friends, and someone had research that indicated my behaviors were dangerous, I'd want to know.

Originally Posted by BlueWolf

Crying is not a bad thing.

CIO is a bad thing when you're trying to force an infant into a situation that they're just not ready to handle.

But crying is not bad and we should not try to prevent all crying all the time. In the right situations, crying can reduce stress. Crying can be therapeutic.

When would an infant be ready? As a toddler? Younger? Older? Maybe it varies too much from child to child to say.

Originally Posted by texmati

I dunno... I have, as an adult, cried so much and so uncontrollably that I felt that it effected me physically. I can't think of a single time-- as a child, teen, or adult, that I have been *left* alone to cry. I've cried alone, sure, but never when I could or wanted to have someone I loved near me.

I'm not sure what you mean by dangerous, but I feel that it would always be cruel and unnatural. Would you consider CIO if you hadn't read about it in a book or on the internet? I feel it goes against human nature/behavior to do that to anyone- child, adult, stranger, loved one ect.

I absolutely agree. As parents, we have both physical and emotional responses to our children crying because we're supposed to respond.

Originally Posted by tzs

i believe there have been studies on CIO because coincidentaly enough, my friend who's hubby is a phd student in neurology just left a message on my phone about it (it's been popping up in discussion lately among other friends.)

i have to get the complete info but from what he said they did a study on 7-9 month olds and found that after 4 months there was no difference between the sleep regulation of the CIO and non-CIO babies although the CIO babies achieved it faster.

the thing that kind of shocked me is that apparently, depression was lower in the....CIO babies. now, i'm not sure why this would be or how in the heck they measure baby depression but it's shocking enough that i'm going to have to get the source and read for myself.

(on the upside...he also had found research that shows that swaddling improves gross motor development.)

I'd love to hear more about this!

[wombatclay]

The Australian Association for Infant Mental Health Inc. issued a position paper (updated in 2004) that sets out reasons to avoid "controlled crying". You can find the whole paper here, but one section is of specific interest to this conversation:

If controlled crying is to be used it would be most appropriate after the child has an understanding of the meaning of the parent’s words, to know that the
parent will be coming back and to be able to feel safe without the parent’s presence. Developmentally this takes about three years.

They also suggest that any infant/child should be given a full health evaluation and parents counseled on alternatives before any controlled crying is attempted.

The paper ends with a nice bibliography covering pediatric sleep, stress, and alternatives to controlled crying. Now, it's 2004 so it's a bit old, but a quick dig through pubmed didn't turn up much research one way or the other in the past 5 years (or rather, there are lots of surveys, but no real conclusions, and controlled studies are thin on the ground).

[almadianna]

I have to say that as an adult if I was forced to cry on my own it would do me harm.... so I dont think that allowing a child to cry on their own to teach them something is a good idea. Ever.

Crying in itself is not evil, kids cry... but CIO is basically with a purpose to teach them independence, self reliance, or whatever... and that just does not make sense.

[lolar2]

Originally Posted by dislocator3972

Thanks for the links. I know a lot of parents who wait until their baby is 6 months or so, and then begin the sleep training. But nothing I have read about CIO/sleep training/infant sleep suggests that this is somehow safer. I'm sure the MDC is not the place to go to find pro-CIO stuff, but I thought someone might have seen it or might know where to find it.

IIRC Weissbluth's book says that babies under 6 months old need to be fed often. So he doesn't advocate CIO before that, in order to avoid failure to thrive. It has to do with frequency of feeding, not crying per se.

[blizzard_babe]

This is interesting to me, not because I plan on CIO-ing DS, but because I've managed to "talk down" friends who are looking to CIO a little baby, and have said, "At LEAST wait until he's a little older." I've never had a number, but have wanted to avoid those little bitties crying when they don't even understand that mama still exists when she leaves the room...

[D_McG]

Originally Posted by 2boyzmama

I think it varies by child, and their cognitive awareness. My 3 year old sometiems cries when it's bed time. But he *knows*. He knows that he's not in trouble, he knows that mommy doesn't leave, he knows that it's just bed time. I know that he's not hungry, not thirsty, he's had lots of love and attention all day. I know that he's basically just throwing a tantrum. So I explain to him that it is bedtime now, that mommy will see him when the sun comes up, and I lay him in his bed. If his cry changes from an "I'm mad" cry to anything else, I go back in. When he's almost asleep, I go in, cover him up, snuggle for a minute or two, and leave him again. I still respond to his cries overnight if he wakes up, even if it's just to tell him that it's not morning yet and he needs to go back to sleep. Sometimes I'll nurse him for a minute or two, just depends on how awake he is, what the day had been like (stressful in any way), etc.

I started handling bedtime like this with both of my boys sometime between their first and second birthdays, whenever they seemed cognitively able to understand the concept of bedtime.

This is it for me. My DS is almost 4 and if he's crying in his bed he just gets up to ask for help. There is no CIO. Any time a child is confined for an extended period of time and crying can't be good. Studies to show the harm? Not there, imo. But just common sense. Little children need love and touch and all that.

[justKate]

Originally Posted by blizzard_babe

I've never had a number, but have wanted to avoid those little bitties crying when they don't even understand that mama still exists when she leaves the room...

That's the worst, isn't it? Can you imagine the fear they must experience? To be literally a part of someone, and then have them leave you alone? Ugh. I know, preaching to the choir. But it really upsets me.

[JMJ]

My 1 year old still has issues when I leave her in bed with DH so that I can run to the bathroom really fast. I can't imagine she's ready to handle bedtime herself any time soon. I still have a hard time going to bed myself. I like to cuddle and chat for a bit before going to sleep. As a child, I would dread nighttime and being forced to be alone even though I knew my parents were still there. As a teenager and young adult, I would stay up really late to not have to be alone at night. My parents did not do CIO until I was over a year when I was weaned and sleep trained all at once.

[Enudely]

Originally Posted by 2boyzmama

I think it varies by child, and their cognitive awareness. My 3 year old sometiems cries when it's bed time. But he *knows*. He knows that he's not in trouble, he knows that mommy doesn't leave, he knows that it's just bed time. I know that he's not hungry, not thirsty, he's had lots of love and attention all day. I know that he's basically just throwing a tantrum. So I explain to him that it is bedtime now, that mommy will see him when the sun comes up, and I lay him in his bed. If his cry changes from an "I'm mad" cry to anything else, I go back in. When he's almost asleep, I go in, cover him up, snuggle for a minute or two, and leave him again. I still respond to his cries overnight if he wakes up, even if it's just to tell him that it's not morning yet and he needs to go back to sleep. Sometimes I'll nurse him for a minute or two, just depends on how awake he is, what the day had been like (stressful in any way), etc.

I started handling bedtime like this with both of my boys sometime between their first and second birthdays, whenever they seemed cognitively able to understand the concept of bedtime.

Just wondering how you managed to get them to actually stay in their beds? I'm trying to dial in a better bedtime