anyone tried reward charts successfully?

[choochootrain]

I've been Alfie Kohn's "follower" for a long time, and I believe in his philosophy and research behind it. We've raised our children with unconditional love and no "rewards" in the mainstream sense of the word, to the best of our abilities.

Now my 7.75 year old daughter is not a happy child. I believe she has low self esteem (which horrifies me--with all the love poured towards her, how is that possible?), anxieties and worries, a grumpy / negative personality, is highly sensitive and self-aware and she is not coping well with her emotions. The situation is probably compounded by the fact that her 5 year old brother is an "easy", sunny child who seems to handle setbacks optimistically and positively. She feels intense envy / jealosy towards him...Then she feels bad about it. It is an awful cycle. Her negativity overwhelms her, and then it overwhelms me. It is hard to be with a very negative little person 24/7.

I've been trying to figure out way to help her feel more in control of her emotions and to improve her self-esteem. We've got almsot all Lori Light books; we have relaxation and meditation tapes; I try to spend as much 1:1 as I can; We do yoga and breathing exercises.

I praise her in meaningful ways for her accomplishments--I always have. When she is not drawning in her negativity she is amazingly caring, generous, compassionate, very intelligent...I always make sure I have a way to let her know how much I value her achievements, her help, and so on. Yet when she is in her negative moods, she feels that everything is BAD, that I never love her, that I always favour her brother and so on and so on.

I wonder if having a very visible chart of sticker might give her some visual experience of her success. I'm envisioning a notebook with stickers? And I'd give her a sticker whenever she is "doing well"--not sure how to define this yet. But the idea of stickers and rewards feels odd to me. I'm worried to go wrong, somehow. I'm thinking about this as a temporary solution, coupled with other things.

Any thoughts on this idea? Anyone implemented something like this? Any problems I'm not seeing? Any alternative?

Thank you!

[nhoutdoormama]

I am also an Alfie fan and a former SpEd teacher and have used reward charts. Leaving aside all of the complexities re: rewards, we have used them "successfully" to encourage specific behaviors that are very easy to measure. We found it helpful to do this because we had gotten into a nagging rut as parents and I was not liking what was happening. My sons loved them. They felt very motivated and did not seem impacted negatively in any way. Certainly less than the nagging we were doing. Dr. Sears has some good suggestions in one of his books, cannot remember if it's The Discipline Book or The Baby Book. We, however, only rewarded, and once they had "earned" a dot, for example, on the dot to dot chart it was never taken away.

The only thing I would caution you against is using them to reward or punish emotions. Finding a way to differentiate between action and emotion is important, IMO. I have a son that sounds very similar to your daughter and he is very sensitive to what he perceives as criticism. I would need to be especially careful with him when using a reward chart for issues related to temperament and keep the focus clearly on behavior.

Best of luck!!

[choochootrain]

Originally Posted by nhoutdoormama

I am also an Alfie fan and a former SpEd teacher and have used reward charts. Leaving aside all of the complexities re: rewards, we have used them "successfully" to encourage specific behaviors that are very easy to measure. We found it helpful to do this because we had gotten into a nagging rut as parents and I was not liking what was happening. My sons loved them. They felt very motivated and did not seem impacted negatively in any way. Certainly less than the nagging we were doing. Dr. Sears has some good suggestions in one of his books, cannot remember if it's The Discipline Book or The Baby Book. We, however, only rewarded, and once they had "earned" a dot, for example, on the dot to dot chart it was never taken away.

The only thing I would caution you against is using them to reward or punish emotions. Finding a way to differentiate between action and emotion is important, IMO. I have a son that sounds very similar to your daughter and he is very sensitive to what he perceives as criticism. I would need to be especially careful with him when using a reward chart for issues related to temperament and keep the focus clearly on behavior.

Best of luck!!

Thank you! I didn't think to incorporate punishments, just rewards.

I'm having trouble indentifying reward worthy behaviours, though. She tells me that I don't notive when she is trying to cope with her negative feelings and makes an effort not to behave in a negative way towards others. I do notice. I think she wants me to do more. But this is so vague, and hard to define.

Let's say she feels that her brother is annoying her, but instead of yelling at him and exploding, she picks up a book and reads to herself for a bit. She feels that that was a huge effort on her part, and I agree. But it is not measureable and not definable.

Or instead of ranting and whining when frustrated, she calms herself down and behaves in a "socially acceptable" way.

Any thoughts on this?

[PreggieUBA2C]

I would be very concerned. Have you investigated potential physiological reasons for your dd's persistent negativity? Is there a hormonal/chemical issue happening?

I understand your desire to affirm her in a concrete way, but part of being a respected human being is being trusted, and for actions that align with that trust to not be made issue of as though they were a surprise or extraordinary. And she being raised with that trust and yet feeling unappreciated and emotionally down so often, would seem to indicate something else is going on than simply your communication, but maybe not, I suppose.

You may already be doing this, but if your dd is asking for acknowledgment, perhaps you could quietly sit down beside her when she's chosen to calm herself with a book rather than engage in an unnecessary conflict, and just tell her that you noticed that she did xyz, and that it really helped everyone to avoid a potentially stressful situation, so thank you. Then you could ask if anything was left unresolved for her personally by doing this, that you two could talk about so she doesn't feel like a martyr. I do this all the time with my dc.

I don't see a sticker chart as being more effective for what you are trying to accomplish in your relationship and family than just communicating deliberately (perhaps more often?) about these specific things.

Honestly, though, if you are already doing this, and your dd is still very unhappy most of the time, I would be seeking something else to explain and resolve it.

Diet and hormonal imbalances could be playing a role, unless you've already ruled that out. This must be heart-breaking for you mama.

[K-Mom3]

If she is 7, I would say that she can sometimes reward herself with a chart or some other method, and tell you about it.

You could consider reading "Transforming the difficult child." The first part is how to give more constructive and constant praise and the second part is about setting up a point system that gives kids acknowledgement for the things they are doing well and also help you work on things they need help with. You make a bunch of categories (one could be calming herself down) and the parent gives a daily score in each category--but you could definitely ask her what she thinks about how she did, especially since she knows what is going on in her head.

I would also consider doing a few of the things that combat depression--just to see if they help her to not be so negative. Daily outdoor light, exercise and vitamins, for example. The yoga, relaxation and breathing exercises sound great as well.

[sanguine_speed]

I have a child who is very much the same as you describe. Others don't understand her very well at all. I used to think she was a typical baby and toddler, until I had another child who was dramatically different.
Have you read "The Highly Sensitive Child" or "Sensational Kids"? I see my daughter in these books.

I have decided to avoid sticker charts because while a sticker is a positive reward, remember too that no sticker is a kind of punishment, especially for a sensitive person. And what happens if you regularly miss what it is you're trying to reward? And I agree that it's dangerous to reward emotions. I know you're thinking of rewarding responses to emotions, but I think it's too fine a line, especially for someone like my own dd.

At this stage, I just try to acknowledge those moments when she leaves the room rather than shouting at her little brother or sister.

Meanwhile, to help her enjoy life as much as possible, I set things up so her needs are best met. She will not have to share a bedroom as long as I can help it because she really really needs her own space to be. We talk about how she can remove herself from scenarios that are difficult for her. We spent as much time as possible doing things she really enjoys that are physical activities: swimming, horseback riding, bike riding, going to the park, etc.

I still wish she could be a happier, more easy-going kid, for her own sake far more than mine, but she isn't. She IS however coping rather well as she grows up and I'm seeing improvements in her quality of life.

[choochootrain]

Originally Posted by sanguine_speed

I have a child who is very much the same as you describe. Others don't understand her very well at all. I used to think she was a typical baby and toddler, until I had another child who was dramatically different.
Have you read "The Highly Sensitive Child" or "Sensational Kids"? I see my daughter in these books.

I have decided to avoid sticker charts because while a sticker is a positive reward, remember too that no sticker is a kind of punishment, especially for a sensitive person. And what happens if you regularly miss what it is you're trying to reward? And I agree that it's dangerous to reward emotions. I know you're thinking of rewarding responses to emotions, but I think it's too fine a line, especially for someone like my own dd.

At this stage, I just try to acknowledge those moments when she leaves the room rather than shouting at her little brother or sister.

Meanwhile, to help her enjoy life as much as possible, I set things up so her needs are best met. She will not have to share a bedroom as long as I can help it because she really really needs her own space to be. We talk about how she can remove herself from scenarios that are difficult for her. We spent as much time as possible doing things she really enjoys that are physical activities: swimming, horseback riding, bike riding, going to the park, etc.

I still wish she could be a happier, more easy-going kid, for her own sake far more than mine, but she isn't. She IS however coping rather well as she grows up and I'm seeing improvements in her quality of life.

We do seem to have similar children. I agree with the bolded part. You summed it up well for me. Thank you.

[sapphire_chan]

It sounds like what she wants is more acknowledgments of when she's trying. Meaning she already views your approval as a reward for controlling her emotions and doesn't think it's being given fairly.

Also, reading a book is a way to suppress emotions, not a way to deal with them.

So my suggestion is that in addition to looking at diet, exercise, sunlight, you also do role-playing with her. Brainstorm ideas of things she can do when she feels overwhelmed and upset, talk with her about how things like meditation and dancing and reading make her feel. Check out nutritional factors that cause irritability and see what other symptoms those have (example: "not drinking enough water makes people cranky and have a headache, so if you have a headache, you can try drinking water and it can help you")

But make it all about her being a happier person for herself and not about you monitoring her.

[momofmine]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

I
Also, reading a book is a way to suppress emotions, not a way to deal with them.

I have a very similar child also. He is very intelligent, and I think that a lot of the gifted literature I have read has helped me some. However, I am having a hard time helping him to learn to deal with big emotions like this. How do I help him to not be mean to his brother when he is annoyed, but at the same time not suppress his emotions?

[choochootrain]

Originally Posted by momofmine

I have a very similar child also. He is very intelligent, and I think that a lot of the gifted literature I have read has helped me some. However, I am having a hard time helping him to learn to deal with big emotions like this. How do I help him to not be mean to his brother when he is annoyed, but at the same time not suppress his emotions?

Yes, this exactly. But I don't necessarily agree with the PP that reading a book is suppressing, not dealing.

For DD, she can deal with her emotions, with my help, for hours. She gets stuck, she start remembering every terrible thing that happened to her starting from when she was 2, and she gets more and more upset. One of the books we read on helping children deal with anxiety talks about this. It compares this kind of ruminating to growing tomatoes--very soon you have too many of them and they are pretty useless when you have so many. Now, when I remind DD that she's growing tomatoes, she can sometimes stop and backtrack.

FWIW, the typical advice all the AP / GD books give about validating, emapthy, discussing solutions and so on, doesn't work with DD. When I do this with DS, he would sigh with relief, relax, and run to play within 3-5 minutes. With DD, it is different. It has very little effect on her, and instead makes her grow more and more tomatoes. It is very frustrating and fruitless. I know that if I stay with her for a good hour, while she pours it all out, she does sigh with relief and goes to play. But unfortunately I have 3 kids, and I can't always spend this full hour with her, ignoring everyone else. And when I do, I'm absolutely drained. I wish I could do this every time she needed it. It makes me feel bad that I can't, but I simply can't.

So reading a book, in her case, allows her to switch her thinking from negativity to something else. Instead of dwelling on her misery, she moves foward. I think it is a valid tool.

[choochootrain]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

It sounds like what she wants is more acknowledgments of when she's trying. Meaning she already views your approval as a reward for controlling her emotions and doesn't think it's being given fairly.

.

I think the issues is too that when she is upset, she is unable to see things positively or even rememer positive things. This is why I was thinking about a visual representation. Maybe I could do my usual approvals, but also remind her that I would put a pretty sticker in MY notebook for each time. Then when she is upset, I can show her physical evidence--each time I placed a sticker in the notebook was the time when I really valued her efforts.

When she is upset, she will even "rewrite" positive events and will retell them negatively. Like she would say, I had such a terrible day! And I would say, You seemed to enjoy our morning read aloud, then you said the breakfast was really good, and then we went to the library and you found some books that you were excited about.

And she is very likely to say, that she didnt' enjoy the read aloud because her baby sister was interrupting, that she wanted an orange juice for breakfast and not apple, and there was a kid in the library that talked too loudly.

I'm confused. Either she was really unhappy with everything, but controlled herself while actiing really happy, or she was happy but later everything seems gloomy. Or what? I feel like a terrible parent not to know, but I really don't know. I think it is the latter. And that small irritations end up beign blown out of proportion.

This is very hard for me to deal with. Especially if I spend the day focusing on her, sometimes to some exclusion of the other two (who ARE easy going and often don't require as much, but i feel bad of "ignoring" them), and in the evening she tells me there was nothing good about the day. I feel so defeated. And then I ask her, wasn't this or that nice or pleasant or fun? And she says, nope.

[PreggieUBA2C]

Being gifted, highly sensitive, and also having chemical or neurological issues are not mutually exclusive; I experience them all.

This obviously may not apply, but I thought I'd give it another try.

In learning about the brain, I discovered that I have an overactive cingulate gyrus. This is the part of the brain that 'grows tomatoes' and worse, if it isn't unstuck in its cycle, it will go on rehashing and making worse what has already been through the cycle. In addition to that, I have an overactive deep limbic system, so I actually experience many things in a negative way that most people enjoy, and this feeds the negative feedback loop of the cingulate gyrus.

That is a very simplistic explanation, but the great news about this is that I am also able to retrain my brain to function much better. I can stop the negative feedback loop deliberately, and have done so; my cingulate gyrus is no longer allowed its tendency toward overactivity. I rejected looped thoughts- no matter what they were- and replaced them with others. At first this was extremely difficult because the brain acts like something is being overlooked and tries harder to convey the information in the loop, so to combat that, I had to be a lot tougher and more insistent. Then it abated. I no longer have a negative feedback loop at all. It took brain retraining to accomplish that, and it was deliberate and necessary.

If I hadn't done this, the rest of my body and mind would still suffer.

Op, from the way that you have described how your dd can have what seems like a fine day, but upon review find it to have been all negative (and then adding onto negatives over and over again), it really does seem to me to be a cingulate issue and probably compounded with limbic sytem overactivity as well.

ETA: One of my children was also affected similarly, and I worked with him to learn how to retrain his thought patterns to reject the loops. I used a key phrase for him if he didn't recognise it himself and that was simply, "That's a loop, sweetie." He would adjust his thoughts as needed and his negativity has all but completely disappeared with the exception of a healthy amount of it for reasonable cause. We spent a lot of time discussing this together too, so it wasn't a child-training tactic at all; he did the work once he also recognised it in himself. He's 6 yrs old now; we did this when he was five.

[choochootrain]

Originally Posted by PreggieUBA2C

Being gifted, highly sensitive, and also having chemical or neurological issues are not mutually exclusive; I experience them all.

This obviously may not apply, but I thought I'd give it another try.

In learnign about the brain, I discovered that I have an overactive cingulate gyrus. This i the part of the brain that 'grows tomatoes' and worse, if it isn't unstuck in its cycle, it will go on rehashing and making worse what has already been through the cycle. In addition to that, I hae an overactive deep limbic system, so I actually experience many things in a negative way that most people enjoy, and this feeds the negative feedback loop of the cingulate gyrus.

That is a very simplistic explanation, but the breat news about this is that I am also able to retrain my brain to function much better. I can stop the negative feedback loop deliberately, and have done so; my cingulate gyrus is no longer allowed its tendency toward overactivity. I rejected looped thoughts- no matter what they are- and replace them with others. At first this is extremely difficult because the brain acts like something is being overlooked and tries harder to convey the information in the loop, so to combat that, I had to be a lot tougher and more insistent. Then it abated. I no longer have a negative feedback loop at all. It took brain retraining to accomplish that, and it was deliberate and necessary.

If I hadn't done this, the rest of my body and mind would still suffer.

Op, from the way that you have described how your dd can have what seems like a fine day, but upon review find it to have been all negative (and then adding onto negatives over and over again), it really does seem to me to be a cingulate issue and probably compounded with limbic sytem overactivity as well.

Thanks! This is exactly how she is looping / ruminating. I haven't look into actual brain parts, but I do know that cognitive-behavioral therapy (retraining the brain, in this case from the negative loop) is one of the most effective therapies. We are settling into working on this more regularly.

She doesn't listen to me, as in I'm not an authority on brain retraining to her

But we have some affirmations on her ipod, and she does accept them better. She'd quote the tape to me!

I hope to be able to have regular "sessions" with her.

[sanguine_speed]

Originally Posted by choochootrain

I think the issues is too that when she is upset, she is unable to see things positively or even rememer positive things. This is why I was thinking about a visual representation. Maybe I could do my usual approvals, but also remind her that I would put a pretty sticker in MY notebook for each time. Then when she is upset, I can show her physical evidence--each time I placed a sticker in the notebook was the time when I really valued her efforts.

When she is upset, she will even "rewrite" positive events and will retell them negatively. Like she would say, I had such a terrible day! And I would say, You seemed to enjoy our morning read aloud, then you said the breakfast was really good, and then we went to the library and you found some books that you were excited about.

And she is very likely to say, that she didnt' enjoy the read aloud because her baby sister was interrupting, that she wanted an orange juice for breakfast and not apple, and there was a kid in the library that talked too loudly.

I'm confused. Either she was really unhappy with everything, but controlled herself while actiing really happy, or she was happy but later everything seems gloomy. Or what? I feel like a terrible parent not to know, but I really don't know. I think it is the latter. And that small irritations end up beign blown out of proportion.

This is very hard for me to deal with. Especially if I spend the day focusing on her, sometimes to some exclusion of the other two (who ARE easy going and often don't require as much, but i feel bad of "ignoring" them), and in the evening she tells me there was nothing good about the day. I feel so defeated. And then I ask her, wasn't this or that nice or pleasant or fun? And she says, nope.

This is my dd too!
You definitely are not alone.
I also have 3 kids (and a 4th due any day) and appreciate the difficulty in meeting everyone's needs with one needing these things you describe. And the feeling defeated when things seemed to be going great, but suddenly no, nothing was good and nothing is good.

((hugs))

[sapphire_chan]

Okay, for ME, books were/are a way of suppressing. Instead of thinking about why I felt that way and being proactive about solutions, I'd basically numb myself with reading.

Using books as a way to calm down before actually working things through would be a good idea, but just reading and reading and reading with no pleasure is only slightly less harmful than binging on junk food, videogames, or whatever.

ETA: And reading your further post, it sounds like you've helped her use books wisely in this regard.

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by choochootrain

I think the issues is too that when she is upset, she is unable to see things positively or even rememer positive things. This is why I was thinking about a visual representation. Maybe I could do my usual approvals, but also remind her that I would put a pretty sticker in MY notebook for each time. Then when she is upset, I can show her physical evidence--each time I placed a sticker in the notebook was the time when I really valued her efforts.

When she is upset, she will even "rewrite" positive events and will retell them negatively. Like she would say, I had such a terrible day! And I would say, You seemed to enjoy our morning read aloud, then you said the breakfast was really good, and then we went to the library and you found some books that you were excited about.

And she is very likely to say, that she didnt' enjoy the read aloud because her baby sister was interrupting, that she wanted an orange juice for breakfast and not apple, and there was a kid in the library that talked too loudly.

I'm confused. Either she was really unhappy with everything, but controlled herself while actiing really happy, or she was happy but later everything seems gloomy. Or what? I feel like a terrible parent not to know, but I really don't know. I think it is the latter. And that small irritations end up beign blown out of proportion.

This is very hard for me to deal with. Especially if I spend the day focusing on her, sometimes to some exclusion of the other two (who ARE easy going and often don't require as much, but i feel bad of "ignoring" them), and in the evening she tells me there was nothing good about the day. I feel so defeated. And then I ask her, wasn't this or that nice or pleasant or fun? And she says, nope.

Oh... yeah, how you were thinking could work. My concerns would be (and you know your dd and whether these would be a factor), 1. would she want you to tell her exactly why each sticker was in the book? 2. would she keep a mental count and be upset if there was a disparity between when you noticed things and her sense of self?

I think that a journal-type thing could also help. For instance, right after a story time when she's feeling excited, have her tell you about it. So then she's in a positive mood and talking about positive things and you write it down. And then remind her about it, maybe start a family habit of every few hours you take 5-10 minutes to meditate on the good things about the day or something. (Maybe the "complaint free living" threads (maybe in parenting and finding your tribe) have ideas.) That way, instead of trying to change her mood, you're maintaining her mood. I know when I'm feeling down, I could be told "but you had some chocolate earlier! " and respond "oh yeah, well the chocolate was really small and I shouldn't even be eating chocolate anyway, blah blah blah blah and I hate everything and everything hates me!!"

ETA: Ah, you're using ipod affirmations, good idea. Although, I'd still get things specific to her life relayed to her positively at regular intervals. Again, for me, in those moods an affirmation can be another thing to get upset about "you're a beautiful person" "b*lls*T"

[PreggieUBA2C]

Originally Posted by choochootrain

Thanks! This is exactly how she is looping / ruminating. I haven't look into actual brain parts, but I do know that cognitive-behavioral therapy (retraining the brain, in this case from the negative loop) is one of the most effective therapies. We are settling into working on this more regularly.

She doesn't listen to me, as in I'm not an authority on brain retraining to her

But we have some affirmations on her ipod, and she does accept them better. She'd quote the tape to me!

I hope to be able to have regular "sessions" with her.

AAAAAHHHH! You snatched up my unedited post! I literally had two children on me and two directly beside me role playing loudly, and I was organising dinner with an under-functioning oven when I wrote (and I'm sick). I fixed the post....

That's great that you can do this with your dd. My ds1 will not be taught either, so when I wrote that we discussed this in depth, it really was a set of discussions like with an adult, both of us knowing that he would make his own decisions.

We did try a few sessions of brain entrainment sound waves. That felt weird, but it seemed to reset both of us. For me, it made me aware of the physical symptoms of overactivity so that I can physically feel in my brain when my limbic system is beginning to overload, even before I become aware of my need to take a break to relax. That hypersensitivity thing really helps in this.

It also alerted me to the place in my brain where my migraines originate because I could feel that part of my brain being swollen and pushing up against my eyes and other parts. I can now stop a migraine by humming at just the right pitch to 'massage' that part to relaxation and the migraine leaves. I also have cluster headaches, and they are more difficult to address, but I do the same thing with more spots to deal with.

Things can really improve for your daughter!

[colsxjack]

I may not know what I am talking about. My daughter is only 9 months old.
But maybe you could try to have your daughter collect and reward herself her own stickers and you can discuss her self appointed rewards at the end of the day.
That way she can tell you all the "work" she did that day to act in a way in which she felt she should be acting and start showing off some of the pride she has in her ability to control her behaviours. While discussing her rewards you will get an idea of the work she believes she accomplished throughout the day and acknowledge her for it. Then you wont miss anything. Which inevitably, if you were doing a reward system for her you would miss something her her eyes. You do have more kids and are busy and can't see everything she does. She is sensitive and may feel you missed something that she should have gotten a sticker for and it will make things worst.

Maybe even try going out with her for her to pick out a book and some stickers. She can keep it like a journal, but one in which she is discussing herself with you. Praise her for the work she did becoming the person she feels she should work at being.

I don't know. Just a thought.

[lookatreestar]

it sounds similar to myself as a kid i just dug this up the other day and it has some suggestions for "causes" which i only agree with 2, natural disposition and the chemical imbalance in the brain (serotonin levels) i would always feel a ton better if i was eating my protein and i would eat a chicken breast before bed at night. hope this helps, you sound like a good mama so hang in there!

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by choochootrain

Let's say she feels that her brother is annoying her, but instead of yelling at him and exploding, she picks up a book and reads to herself for a bit. She feels that that was a huge effort on her part, and I agree. But it is not measureable and not definable.

I haven't read past this, but what about having HER be in charge of the sticker chart. When she thinks she did a good job dealing with her negative feelings in a positive way, she puts a sticker on, them comes and talks to you about it if she so desires.

eta- hehe I just read more looks like colsxjack had the same idea!