Help with test results? And other questions...

[echoecho1528]

I've posted about this in the general H&H board, but am hoping to get additional help with understanding any possible correlations between her mineral levels & gut health/allergies/intolerances.
Here are the results from DD's Hair Elements Test.
In summary: she's very high in many toxic elements and low in both zinc and mag.
A little background:
- Dairy intolerant from birth to 10ish months
- Gluten/wheat intolerant - currently trialing
- She hadn't been much of an eater at all until a few weeks ago. She now eats a moderate amount for a 2 yr old, but still has very little variety. I'm not sure of the reason for the change because we did a few things all at once - intro'd wheat, started x-factor butter/fermented clo, & a multi-vitamin (the last two changes were spurred by a visit to the dentist in which we were told she had beginning stages of decalcification in 4 of her teeth )
- This testing was done before she started eating better.

So basically, things have turned around a lot and she seems to be feeling much better than she has for most of her life. I'm wondering if the change in diet and eating behavior would have been enough to up her zinc an mag levels since the testing, thus making her feel much better?

I'm worried that the results look as though they have come from a child on the autism spectrum. She doesn't have any of the obvious behavioral characteristics, but she has only just turned two and I'm afraid that there could simply be just another drop in the bucket that could push her over the edge. Does that sound like unfounded worry? Her intolerances to dairy and wheat up this worry for me as well and I'm concerned that trialing wheat at this time may have been a bad idea, being that a GFCF diet is one of the many treatments for ASD.

I know my post is all over the place , but I'd greatly appreciate if anyone could offer any insight into the next steps I should take.
Thank you,
Amber

[tanyalynn]

I commented some on your first post over in H&H.

Wheat and dairy are problematic for a lot of people, and for different reasons. I think I have two separate, not-very-related reactions to dairy.

In terms of how quickly things improve, IMO it makes a lot of difference what the underlying problems are. Supplements are improving a lot of things for my kids, but the zinc, for example--if I give DD half her usual zinc for 3 days, she's putting her fingers in her mouth again--her low zinc symptom. The supps are a useful band-aid in some ways. For other kids, with different underlying issues, the supps themselves could do a lot more to address the actual problem.

Mag and zinc are probably low in a lot of kids. I've read some gov't food survey articles, on intake of various minerals, and most adults are borderline or low on consumption. They are the two minerals that are stripped out of our foods the easiest, plus there aren't super-duper great sources of either that are at all common in our diets.

There are a fair number of metals that are elevated, and like I said before, if I had to choose one to worry about, it'd be the lead even though it's lower than some of the others. Whether that manifests in ASD symptoms depends on various factors, I think all out of your control, but, my kids, for example: DS has some oddities like spinning, earlier it was banging his head on the wall. DD doesn't do a single thing like that, never has--her genes are different (DH's contribution, yay DH!) but her health is still at risk, just in different ways. I think my kids need me to address their detoxification issues now, while they're little. It will improve their quality of life and health now, and give them more resilience, in a physical sense, to the vagaries of life when they're adults.

[mamafish9]

I have a child with ASD and a hair test that was high in metals.

FWIW, I believe metals toxicities can create behaviors that look like they are on the spectrum, but they're usually things like spinning and lining stuff up. The core issue with autism (in my view) is that children don't understand how to experience share - engage with you for the primary purpose of connecting and pulling the two of you into the same experience. Simple things - calling you by name to get your attention. Responding regularly to their own name. Pointing to show you something. Shifting gaze between you and an object of interest (to see how you react or to "show you" something). A child can flap and spin and bang their head against a wall, but if they can do those things I just listed by 15 months or so, they're not autistic - they just have a brain that is pretty sensitive to imbalances. Some kids, with enough environmental triggers, regress from these behaviors - but if you talk to their parents, in many cases, you find out that pointing, gaze shifting, responding to their name, didn't actually happen. I can adjust nutrients for my son, pull metals, and get him to a place where he doesn't spin and stim and line up toys. But he still doesn't point, or say mama (he just turned 3, and he's never said my name).

As for your child's metals - antimony and arsenic are two my son was high in as well. It's important to know that those two metals affect how the body can use magnesium. Coupled with low magnesium as well, you're likely seeing a LOT of stuff related to low magnesium symptoms (which can be anything from poor sleep to hyperactivity to OCD type behaviors to sensory issues). Supplementing a TON of magnesium, Epsom salts baths, and also some P5P (active form of B6), should help. A lot of the teeth issues may be related here - calcium requires magnesium to be deposited in bones and teeth - and with low mag and metals that interfere with mag, you have two big strikes against healthy teeth. However, supping lots of mag and some P5P can turn this around fairly quickly.

Buildup of those metals is also a sign your child has a sluggish methylation pathway, since that is how those metals are cleared from the body. Two supps to help with that are methyl B12 (sublingual) and folate (folinic acid and/or MTHF folate, not folic acid).

Low zinc causes issues with low stomach acid, which means food (particularly proteins) are not well digested in the stomach. When our son's zinc got really low, that is when we started seeing reactions to casein and gluten (both proteins which are primarily digested in the stomach). I personally would not trial wheat in a child with low zinc - it can take a while for gluten to cause noticeable damage, but I can't imagine it won't with poor digestion. (My son is back on gluten and casein now, FWIW, with normal zinc levels).

[echoecho1528]

Thank you both so much! You have given me a lot of direction and many points to discuss with DH.

Do you have any idea which causes which - metals toxicity or zinc/mag deficiency? Or does it even work that way? Is continuing to breastfeed a bad idea being that the metals could be coming from me?

I will be ordering liquid zinc and mag from brain child. Mamafish9 - what would a TON of mag be?? I'm not sure if it is possible to find P5P, B12 and folate in liquid forms? DD is so unpredictable in what she eats/drinks, so I'm not sure I could get it into her by hiding it in food or drinks.

Also mamafish9, you hit the nail on the head with her current behaviors of concern. OCD like intensity, horrible sleeper, sensory issues, this is her to a T! I feel so refreshed knowing there might be an end to the dark tunnel of unhealthiness I have felt so trapped in!

[mamafish9]

I think metals run down nutrients, but mag and zinc are really easy to get low in, and then you have a vicious circle.

I used brainchild zinc to start off with - it's easy and well absorbed. Their mag is not quite as tasty, and you'd have to use a lot. I taught my son to swallow small capsules at 2.5 (I dip them in maple syrup and he swallows them easily). Mag in any form doesn't taste great, and I needed to get a lot of it in him. Epsom salts baths can help as well.

B vites taste nasty, and that can be a problem. Good news is, they pass easily through breastmilk - so the first step would be to get yourself on a nice B complex (I use Thorne basic B), and then some extra P5P. I believe breastfeeding is an invaluable gift with a kid with a fragile system - and a great way to pass some vites along! You can't increase minerals in your breastmilk by increasing your intake, so focus on getting those directly in your DD, and then take the B vites yourself. Folate is tasteless, so that you could probably get in your DD, and I use Jarrow B12 sublinguals - they're tasty and DS thinks they're candy (he just chews them up, that seems to work fine).

If I have the behaviors pegged, then focus bigtime on magnesium - no calcium supps (they fight with mag for absorption, and calcium tends to win). Lots of mag, spread out over the day into 3-4 doses. Epsom salts baths. Take mag yourself - if you are deficient, it might increase what's in your breastmilk. Along with you taking P5P, you should see some improvements fairly quickly.

The other really important piece is to deal with exposure routes. The scary thing with some of our kids is that the source is basic daily living and eating - they just don't get rid of metals at all well. My son had high antimony and arsenic as well - the most likely source is bed (flame retardants), PJs (flame retardants), and carpet. For PJs, get the snug fitting kind that don't have flame retardants, and/or wash the others in wash soda on hot many times. I replaced my son's bed (and note, my daughter slept on the same bed and had no antimony issues, we tested her - he just doesn't clear it well). For carpet - well, I hope that's not the source! Other possibilities are your water (have it tested at a local lab for antimony, arsenic, and lead - all could possibly be coming through your drinking water). For aluminum and tin, I'm less sure what those sources are, see if the sources listed on this page give you any clues.

[tanyalynn]

Originally Posted by echoecho1528

Thank you both so much! You have given me a lot of direction and many points to discuss with DH.

Do you have any idea which causes which - metals toxicity or zinc/mag deficiency? Or does it even work that way? Is continuing to breastfeed a bad idea being that the metals could be coming from me?

Like mamafish said, it's a vicious circle. Many people may be somewhat low in mag and zinc, but it's exacerbated in people susceptible to metals (which looks more genetic, to me, than anything else), or with massive exposures (acute environmental disasters, things that everyone would get sick from, I mean).

As for breastfeeding, for me, I had to decide when the drawbacks outweighed the risks. Sucked to have to make that decision, and mamafish's experience is very different from mine. I know I'm the source of most of the kids' issues--sure, carpets and PJs and stuff didn't help, but both kids have issues (different manifestations) and DS certainly showed oddities very young--weird to see a clumsy infant, it was clear by 7, 8 mos old that he was distinctly poorly coordinated, but I think things were not right in-utero for him. So the risk-benefit calculation was different for us. I started taking a lot of supps for myself when DS was 14 mos, and took a few months to ramp up the kids to their full dosages, and weaned DS when he was 21 mos old.

I will be ordering liquid zinc and mag from brain child. Mamafish9 - what would a TON of mag be?? I'm not sure if it is possible to find P5P, B12 and folate in liquid forms? DD is so unpredictable in what she eats/drinks, so I'm not sure I could get it into her by hiding it in food or drinks.

I chose to not try to hide supps, but give them in small drinks--like 2 T of strongly flavored juice, black cherry was the choice for a long time--and slowly, slowly, slowly add in new stuff. Went to fast several times, had to start over. We worked on the habit of drinking this small amount of juice--sometimes with a straw, sometimes from a tablespoon that I give them, sometimes I think with a medicine syringe. But it wasn't hidden, food didn't taste weird, but it was a part of the daily routine.

And for us, I used powdered supps, slowly increased dosages and tried to mask the flavor with other things. I used a lot of Thorne supps with the kids, for B6 I used Thorne's B-complex #6. I think my dosing is higher than mamafish's.

Also mamafish9, you hit the nail on the head with her current behaviors of concern. OCD like intensity, horrible sleeper, sensory issues, this is her to a T! I feel so refreshed knowing there might be an end to the dark tunnel of unhealthiness I have felt so trapped in!

Originally Posted by mamafish9

B vites taste nasty, and that can be a problem. Good news is, they pass easily through breastmilk - so the first step would be to get yourself on a nice B complex (I use Thorne basic B), and then some extra P5P. I believe breastfeeding is an invaluable gift with a kid with a fragile system - and a great way to pass some vites along! You can't increase minerals in your breastmilk by increasing your intake, so focus on getting those directly in your DD, and then take the B vites yourself. Folate is tasteless, so that you could probably get in your DD, and I use Jarrow B12 sublinguals - they're tasty and DS thinks they're candy (he just chews them up, that seems to work fine).

B vitamins do transfer in breastmilk, a few minerals do as well, but for us, I don't think that did anything but help offset the problems of the breastmilk. I was giving DS a long list of supps while I was nursing him, and I saw an improvement in the dosage of some of the supps h needed, when I weaned him. And the first fall/winter he _wasn't_ nursing was his healthiest. He gets sick a lot more than most kids, and in retrospect, I can't tell if that would've been better if he'd been on formula from the beginning--though how that would go with a kid who's dairy and soy intolerant, well, I just don't know.

So the effectiveness of B vits through breastmilk is somewhat dependent, IMO, on your situation. But starting a good multivit yourself wouldn't hurt. Thorne Basic Nutrients would be something to consider, not sure how the dosage of Bs compares to the one mamafish recommended, but it's got a good amount of folate. They've got multi mineral supps too, if you think you should have that support--I think they're called biomins and citramins.

If I have the behaviors pegged, then focus bigtime on magnesium - no calcium supps (they fight with mag for absorption, and calcium tends to win). Lots of mag, spread out over the day into 3-4 doses. Epsom salts baths. Take mag yourself - if you are deficient, it might increase what's in your breastmilk. Along with you taking P5P, you should see some improvements fairly quickly.

The other really important piece is to deal with exposure routes. The scary thing with some of our kids is that the source is basic daily living and eating - they just don't get rid of metals at all well. My son had high antimony and arsenic as well - the most likely source is bed (flame retardants), PJs (flame retardants), and carpet. For PJs, get the snug fitting kind that don't have flame retardants, and/or wash the others in wash soda on hot many times. I replaced my son's bed (and note, my daughter slept on the same bed and had no antimony issues, we tested her - he just doesn't clear it well). For carpet - well, I hope that's not the source! Other possibilities are your water (have it tested at a local lab for antimony, arsenic, and lead - all could possibly be coming through your drinking water). For aluminum and tin, I'm less sure what those sources are, see if the sources listed on this page give you any clues.

I wanted to quote mamafish's post because we are coming from two different situations, and there's a lot of overlap, but also areas of distinct difference.

If you haven't already, I'd either just do a hair test for yourself--I'd think the toxic metals would show up fairly well even in a breastfeeding mom, and that could help, but also think about your health history. Compared to other people you encounter, do you seem to have more health issues? Do you need to work harder than others to have good energy?

My clues, that I admit it took me quite a while to see, were a chain of mostly low-level health problems, I only became obviously unwell during the stress (health/nutritional and life events) of my 2nd pregnancy... enviro allergies, anxiety, intermittent depression, fatigue more than most other people, and finally I became hypothyroid and crushing fatigue and brain-fog. It's not the same list for everyone, though these are quite typical for mercury toxicity, but that's my example of things not being like other people. It was manageable and normal for me until I started looking for patterns.

[mamafish9]

I think doing a hair test yourself is a good idea. I think I'd tend to assume you aren't the source of your DS' toxicities because you're not seeing mercury issues, and antimony/arsenic are quickly cleared by most people (so you'd have to have a current exposure to be dumping into him, it's not like mercury where it could be a very old exposure). You might check your lead levels, nursing mamas can dump old lead from their bones into their breastmilk (I tested, and my blood lead was 0). In my case, my hair test is very normal, so I felt my milk was very supportive. If I'd had mercury or lead issues, I'd have been making very different choices, I think. Other metals, probably a more complex decision. I think Tanya's gut-check on - "are you pretty healthy" is also a good one to do.

[tanyalynn]

Mamafish, wouldn't you think that significant lead, in and of itself, could bog down methylation to the point that those other metals built up? That's why I tend to worry about lead and mercury the most, they seem to cause more systemic, intractable issues, in general, than the others. Maybe that, plus the ubiquity of both, and lead especially can be hard to trace back to a source. I tend to worry more about lead in the yellow than any of the others, although I agree that multiple metals elevated into the yellow, combined, are more of a problem than any single one.

[mamafish9]

That wasn't our experience with lead (DS' was just touching into the yellow too). After chelation it's down 50%, and I can't say as how I've really seen any impact on methylation or otherwise. Getting antimony down to where it wasn't keeping him in permanent low mag symptoms was much more significant. However, DS is probably a special case - his methylation is clearly way messed up!

For the OP test, if only one of antimony/arsenic was high yellow, or mag was normal, I wouldn't be as concerned. But antimony & arsenic have synergistic negative effects according to Cutler, and low mag will make it that much worse again. So I assume the most noticeable effects will come from addressing antimony/arsenic. In our case, the chelation approach we chose dealt with the lead as well, so we didn't really have to prioritize in that sense.

I do completely agree that lead is a much bigger bear to deal with - it's harder to get rid of and can have much scarier impact at lower levels. So I think ruling out sources and considering chelation options is important. I suspect mostly we're commenting on the stuff we know best .

[echoecho1528]

Originally Posted by mamafish9

A lot of the teeth issues may be related here - calcium requires magnesium to be deposited in bones and teeth - and with low mag and metals that interfere with mag, you have two big strikes against healthy teeth.

Okay, so calcium and magnesium compete for absorption, but calcium also requires mag to be deposited in bones and teeth, right? You are saying to supp a lot of mag and to not sup calcium. She doesn't eat a lot of calcium rich food, so where will she get the calcium she needs to help her teeth situation?

[echoecho1528]

Originally Posted by TanyaLopez

If you haven't already, I'd either just do a hair test for yourself--I'd think the toxic metals would show up fairly well even in a breastfeeding mom, and that could help, but also think about your health history. Compared to other people you encounter, do you seem to have more health issues? Do you need to work harder than others to have good energy?

My clues, that I admit it took me quite a while to see, were a chain of mostly low-level health problems, I only became obviously unwell during the stress (health/nutritional and life events) of my 2nd pregnancy... enviro allergies, anxiety, intermittent depression, fatigue more than most other people, and finally I became hypothyroid and crushing fatigue and brain-fog. It's not the same list for everyone, though these are quite typical for mercury toxicity, but that's my example of things not being like other people. It was manageable and normal for me until I started looking for patterns.

Like you, I have always had low level health problems. Allergies, chronic anemia, fatigue, brain-fog, major depressive disorder. It is just how I have always lived my life, but now I am thinking I might have some underlying issues I need to deal with. Since DD was born, her health has taken such precedence, that I don't really even think of my issues.

As for lead exposure, I am going to have to assume it is from me. We only use bottled water, we live in modern housing. I'm looking at the list on the Dana's View site, and the only things listed that she is exposed to are rubber toys, bathtubs, and vinyl mini blinds. I can get rid of the toys, but I'm confused as to how such minimal exposure could cause such elevated levels.

I really don't want to wean, but I will definitely get myself tested to see if my levels are similar, and make a decision from there. It would definitely be a kick in the butt to wean if I find that my levels are high as well. Is a blood lead test more definitive than a hair analysis?

[mamafish9]

Originally Posted by echoecho1528

Okay, so calcium and magnesium compete for absorption, but calcium also requires mag to be deposited in bones and teeth, right? You are saying to supp a lot of mag and to not sup calcium. She doesn't eat a lot of calcium rich food, so where will she get the calcium she needs to help her teeth situation?

Get magnesium up first, then you can supp calcium. Until you get the mag up, supping calcium isn't that useful, imo - and it makes the mag issues worse.

Originally Posted by echoecho1528

As for lead exposure, I am going to have to assume it is from me. We only use bottled water, we live in modern housing. I'm looking at the list on the Dana's View site, and the only things listed that she is exposed to are rubber toys, bathtubs, and vinyl mini blinds. I can get rid of the toys, but I'm confused as to how such minimal exposure could cause such elevated levels.

All it takes is low level exposure if your child is not excreting well. You can get lead test kits to swab your bathtub, and should, if you have an older tub. There is low levels of lead in most food, just picked up from the soil. Your DD's levels aren't that high, so I'd guess it is something like food or minimal exposure from toys.

A hair test will tell you body load of a metal, a blood test will tell you what is currently exposed/mobilized. So even if I had a high body load of lead (stored in bones), the issue is whether I was mobilizing it into my babe (which can sometimes happen with nursing).

Given your health history, you may want to run a hair test of your own, but a blood test for you for lead will let you know if you are the source of current exposure for your DD.

[tanyalynn]

Originally Posted by mamafish9

That wasn't our experience with lead (DS' was just touching into the yellow too). After chelation it's down 50%, and I can't say as how I've really seen any impact on methylation or otherwise. Getting antimony down to where it wasn't keeping him in permanent low mag symptoms was much more significant. However, DS is probably a special case - his methylation is clearly way messed up!

Several good points, above and below.

For the OP test, if only one of antimony/arsenic was high yellow, or mag was normal, I wouldn't be as concerned. But antimony & arsenic have synergistic negative effects according to Cutler, and low mag will make it that much worse again. So I assume the most noticeable effects will come from addressing antimony/arsenic. In our case, the chelation approach we chose dealt with the lead as well, so we didn't really have to prioritize in that sense.

I do completely agree that lead is a much bigger bear to deal with - it's harder to get rid of and can have much scarier impact at lower levels. So I think ruling out sources and considering chelation options is important. I suspect mostly we're commenting on the stuff we know best .

Yeah, both to talking from our strengths, and lead is a special case, but not the only problem out there, and the synergistic effect you mentioned probably needs addressing.

Originally Posted by echoecho1528

Like you, I have always had low level health problems. Allergies, chronic anemia, fatigue, brain-fog, major depressive disorder. It is just how I have always lived my life, but now I am thinking I might have some underlying issues I need to deal with. Since DD was born, her health has taken such precedence, that I don't really even think of my issues.

Ever had a B12 test? It's important for methylation, it's required for red blood cells to carry oxygen, it can be involved in mood issues. I mean, even if it's low (I've read healthy people are in the top third of the ref range), it's probably not the only thing, but it may be important for your situation.

As for lead exposure, I am going to have to assume it is from me. We only use bottled water, we live in modern housing. I'm looking at the list on the Dana's View site, and the only things listed that she is exposed to are rubber toys, bathtubs, and vinyl mini blinds. I can get rid of the toys, but I'm confused as to how such minimal exposure could cause such elevated levels.

I really don't want to wean, but I will definitely get myself tested to see if my levels are similar, and make a decision from there. It would definitely be a kick in the butt to wean if I find that my levels are high as well. Is a blood lead test more definitive than a hair analysis?

Blood tests would show current exposure which I think should always be explored when lead is of concern. Hair tests would show longer-term issues.

Originally Posted by mamafish9

Get magnesium up first, then you can supp calcium. Until you get the mag up, supping calcium isn't that useful, imo - and it makes the mag issues worse.

I'd agree. Consider stuff like cell salts, it's a sorta-homeopathic, sorta-nutritional supp, supposed to improve utilization of nutrients. Not instead of stuff to reduce heavy metals, but in addition. There's a thread in H&H and discussion in Dental. We just started, results are generally slower, but maybe it'll help a bit in the meantime.

All it takes is low level exposure if your child is not excreting well. You can get lead test kits to swab your bathtub, and should, if you have an older tub. There is low levels of lead in most food, just picked up from the soil. Your DD's levels aren't that high, so I'd guess it is something like food or minimal exposure from toys.

You really think so? That a significant number of kids out there would accumulate that much from such incidental exposures? I mean--fundamentally I don't know exactly why my family has such issues with mercury, but in myself I saw the downward spiral accelerate rapidly when my amalgams were placed. But without a physical trigger (either exposure or some nutrient deficiency like B12 in a vegan diet), I can't figure out why or how a person gets such poor detox pathways. I know some of this is coming from my background, but I can't wrap my head around it.

Even people with MTHFR variants, I wouldn't think all would have yellow lead, and they have a very distinct folate issue (issue given the typical folate intake and the general plethora of substances in our society to methylate).

A hair test will tell you body load of a metal, a blood test will tell you what is currently exposed/mobilized. So even if I had a high body load of lead (stored in bones), the issue is whether I was mobilizing it into my babe (which can sometimes happen with nursing).

Given your health history, you may want to run a hair test of your own, but a blood test for you for lead will let you know if you are the source of current exposure for your DD.

I think I need to write something not in quotes.

Oh, the thought I had that I then wondered how it was relevant--almost skipped it. The other part, that I don't know how to quantify, about nursing and having detoxification issues, is the non-metal chemicals that seem to accumulate. There have been a few times, with me and the kids, when I think that the stuff that's mobilized isn't a metal, but is clearly problematic. The organic chemicals in, well, everything. I think that was also possibly an issue while I was nursing--the nursing relationship is just so tricky. At least in my case. And obviously I don't know how to quantify or really deal with them, at least not while nursing.

[echoecho1528]

Originally Posted by mamafish9

That wasn't our experience with lead (DS' was just touching into the yellow too). After chelation it's down 50%, and I can't say as how I've really seen any impact on methylation or otherwise. Getting antimony down to where it wasn't keeping him in permanent low mag symptoms was much more significant. However, DS is probably a special case - his methylation is clearly way messed up!

For the OP test, if only one of antimony/arsenic was high yellow, or mag was normal, I wouldn't be as concerned. But antimony & arsenic have synergistic negative effects according to Cutler, and low mag will make it that much worse again. So I assume the most noticeable effects will come from addressing antimony/arsenic. In our case, the chelation approach we chose dealt with the lead as well, so we didn't really have to prioritize in that sense.

I do completely agree that lead is a much bigger bear to deal with - it's harder to get rid of and can have much scarier impact at lower levels. So I think ruling out sources and considering chelation options is important. I suspect mostly we're commenting on the stuff we know best .

Could you please explain to me the difference between chelation and detoxification? I'm assuming these processes are safe to do with children.

Also, I've heard that it is not recommended to do any detox program while breastfeeding. Is this true?

Thank you so much for letting me pick your brains! It is such an enormous help to me to have the opportunity to get information in a concise manner from such informed people.

[mamafish9]

Originally Posted by tanyalopez

You really think so? That a significant number of kids out there would accumulate that much from such incidental exposures? I mean--fundamentally I don't know exactly why my family has such issues with mercury, but in myself I saw the downward spiral accelerate rapidly when my amalgams were placed. But without a physical trigger (either exposure or some nutrient deficiency like B12 in a vegan diet), I can't figure out why or how a person gets such poor detox pathways. I know some of this is coming from my background, but I can't wrap my head around it.

This is similar to the question in autism circles about which comes first, autism or environmental trigger. I think that given just basic nutrients (no deficiencies, but not therapeutic levels), and not metals toxicities, my son's methylation would be pretty bad. He doesn't have a big metals load now, and it's still pretty sucky. I'll have his genetics back soon, but I think this is also true for many autistic kids - you add together 3-4 (or 8 or 10) methyl cycle mutations (not just mthf), and you get a cycle that doesn't work very well. Then you build up metals, then the cycle works even less well.

I read a really cool post by someone that looked at lead levels in typical organic veggies, and calculated body load by 5 if you weren't excreting any (and ate a "good" diet of fruits and veggies). It was an astonishing amount. The average person excretes it fine, but it was easy to believe that my son would have built up a decent level without much extra exposure beyond what he eats.

While I don't rule out some exposure for my son I'm not aware of, I think the basic issue is that without some therapeutic level long term intervention, he will continue to have poor methylation and poor detox. Where as in your house, once you get rid of enough mercury, maybe your systems will normalize more?

Originally Posted by echoecho1528

Could you please explain to me the difference between chelation and detoxification? I'm assuming these processes are safe to do with children.

Also, I've heard that it is not recommended to do any detox program while breastfeeding. Is this true?

For me, detox is supporting the body's own processes for excreting metals. Chelation is using substances (drugs, nutrients, etc) to intentionally mobilize stored metals and remove them from the body. Both can be done with lower risk, or done very poorly.

I wouldn't do either while breastfeeding, for sure. And with a child, I'd do a lot of reading on safe chelation before trying that. Oops, gotta go, back later.

[tanyalynn]

Originally Posted by echoecho1528

Could you please explain to me the difference between chelation and detoxification? I'm assuming these processes are safe to do with children.

Also, I've heard that it is not recommended to do any detox program while breastfeeding. Is this true?

I wouldn't do anything that someone would label a detox program while pregnant or nursing.

As for chelation and detoxification...

Detoxification is the process by which the body gets rid of things it does not want or longer needs. There's a lot of chemical stuff going on in our bodies and once we're done with some of these chemicals, they need to be excreted and that's what detoxification does, essentially daily housekeeping. We make estrogen, we excrete it, some of the natural chemicals in healthy foods need to be excreted, it's the same pathways.

When we get low on nutrients, for whatever reason, stuff doesn't get done in a timely fashion and that's part of why I eventually got sick--weird chemicals floating around, settling into tissues sometimes preventing other important chemical reactions from happening. The weird toxins in our environment add to the burden of what our inherent detox pathways need to cope with, so being mindful of household chemicals, weird ingredients in foods, things like that matter.

I'd describe detox support mostly as nutritional support meant to provide the raw materials for our bodies to both keep up with the daily stuff and start doing some catch-up work. You wouldn't want to do things that are meant to mobilize metals or other toxins--knowledgeable HCPs can help here, but it's really a buyer beware market, I've read a lot of advice that people have gotten from HCPs that I found extremely poor. But I've gotten what I think is very good advice, conservative while I was nursing, with I think a good balance of safety and efficacy.

This page discusses the whole thing in a lot more detail....
http://tuberose.com/Liver_Detoxification.html

Basic nutritional support I think is a very good idea while nursing.

Chelation is deliberately pulling metals that are stuck somewhere--one of the ways they cause health problems is by getting chemically stuck in a place where other work is supposed to be occurring--and excreting said molecule of metal. There are safer and more dangerous ways to do this. The discussion of safety and chelation for kids is a lot better than the discussion for adults. And one recent thread discussed chelation in enough depth to spur more reading and learning, with a enough background to get someone started.

I weaned my son to get my amalgams out and to start chelating. I would not do it while nursing.

[mamafish9]

What Tanya said, LOL.

I will add that plenty of people out there push "detox" programs/approaches that use things like chlorella and cilantro - "natural" detox. The thing is, chlorella and cilantro are chelators - they mobilize metals and try to carry them out of the body. From what I've read though, I don't think they're a good choice for chelators (e.g. not safe) - they mobilize metals, but don't get them all the way out of the body.

So I totally agree that nutritional support is wonderful - most supps are safe and really useful while nursing. But I'd be very careful before going further than that while nursing.

[echoecho1528]

Action Plan

My anxiety over DD's health issues is beginning to be debilitating. I have to get a clear action plan set on paper so I can begin to help her. Her teeth are getting worse by the day and I think her mineral levels have everything to do with it.
Below is basically a synopsis of the information you have given me as well as other info from different threads.
Can you ladies please view my plan and help me with choosing supplements?

Current Supps & regimens
- Fermented CLO w/ high vitamin butter - 1 tsp/day
- She is taking this multi vitamin - 1.5 tsp/day
- Dental hygiene regimen - brush/floss 2x per day, xylitol wipes and granules throughout the day - at least 4-5 times, MI paste at bedtime. Limiting sugar and bread products - which means basically that my baby isn't eating.
- This DHA Fish oil supplement.

Gut Healing
- Cut out gluten & dairy due to possible reactions (this will happen next week because we are getting her blood tested for celiac Monday and she needs to be ingesting gluten)
- Bone broth daily
- Probiotics - water kefir
- I can't imagine how I would get any fermented foods into her, but I'm willing to try.

Possible Toxic Metal Sources
- Change current bedding - switching mattresses/blankets and sheets. (I recently realized that we have been sleeping on a futon mattress that we got second hand about 2 years ago. When we first got it it wreaked of smoke from the previous owner. We doused it with febreeze to clear up the smell (Probably not the best idea ).
- About Pajamas - If the tags say 'not fire resistant' is it safe to assume that they weren't treated with fire retardants?
- Anything else I should consider?

Supplements and Tests
Supplements/Tests for me
- Magnesium (how much?)
- B Complex that includes Folate (Thorne?)
- P5P
- Hair Test
- Blood Lead Test

Supplements/Tests for DD
- Magnesium (which one should I use? What dosage?)
- B12 Sublingual - Jarrow was suggested
- Folate
- Zinc - Think I will go with Brainchild Liquid
- B6 - Thorne's Basic #6 was suggested
- Vitamin D
- Cell Salts specific to teeth health: Calc. Phos, Calc Flour, & Silica

Questions about supplements:
Is this overload for her?
Is it better to do all of them separately or does it make more sense to use the Thorne's B #6 that encompasses B6, B12, and Folate?

Any other wisdom is greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Amber

[mamafish9]

Several comments:

1) The children's multi, like almost all of them, is pretty low in most things. Maybe look for one made for kids with autism, they tend to have a lot more minerals, B's, etc, which you will want. GIProHealth makes one that tastes less bad than some, and has good form of folate in it.

2) For B12, you want the sublingual form separately, it is far better absorbed that way. It's fine to do a Thorne B complex and then add more sublingual B12 (directly for DD, and you might benefit from it as well).

3) PJs - yes, if they say "not fire resistant", then they weren't treated with flame retardants.

4) What are you switching to as a mattress for DD?

5) I'd get your drinking water tested, just to make sure it's not a source for any of the metals your DD is high in.

6) Magnesium dosage - lots. My DS weighs about 30lbs and he gets 250mg/day. For him, that's just below bowel tolerance. But you're unlikely to get that much in your DD until she can swallow capsules, so "as much as possible" . Try several different ones until you figure out which she will take the most of (you can order trial sizes of brainchild stuff, so you could try their mag and see if she'll take it).

7) Gut healing - coconut products, if she can have them. Turtle Mountain makes yummy coconut milk, Kathy has an awesome recipe for homemade coconut milk yogurt on her blog, kathysrecipebox.com.

[echoecho1528]

Originally Posted by mamafish9

Several comments:

1) The children's multi, like almost all of them, is pretty low in most things. Maybe look for one made for kids with autism, they tend to have a lot more minerals, B's, etc, which you will want. GIProHealth makes one that tastes less bad than some, and has good form of folate in it.
The site I found for your suggested multi only gives indications for 4 yrs +. How much would you suggest giving a 21lb 2 yr old? It also states that it is often used for ASD kids who have loose stools. I'm hoping it doesn't stop her up even more that usual Hopefully large doses of mag will balance is out?

2) For B12, you want the sublingual form separately, it is far better absorbed that way. It's fine to do a Thorne B complex and then add more sublingual B12 (directly for DD, and you might benefit from it as well).
So, the B12 that is in the mulit, plus the extra sublingual dose wouldn't be too much for DD?

3) PJs - yes, if they say "not fire resistant", then they weren't treated with flame retardants.

4) What are you switching to as a mattress for DD?
For now, I am definitely moving her from the smoke infested futon mattress to a regular one. I will do some research on the use of fire retardants on mattresses and determine if we need to find one that is specifically retardant-free.

5) I'd get your drinking water tested, just to make sure it's not a source for any of the metals your DD is high in.
I will do this, although we only use tap water for bathing and washing clothes and dishes. I've read that Teflon and cooking utensils can be sources as well, so we are looking into getting pans without non-stick surfaces.

6) Magnesium dosage - lots. My DS weighs about 30lbs and he gets 250mg/day. For him, that's just below bowel tolerance. But you're unlikely to get that much in your DD until she can swallow capsules, so "as much as possible" . Try several different ones until you figure out which she will take the most of (you can order trial sizes of brainchild stuff, so you could try their mag and see if she'll take it).
I ordered the trial sizes of both zinc and mag from brainchild. She's good at taking liquid vitamins, so I'm hoping this will work out well.

7) Gut healing - coconut products, if she can have them. Turtle Mountain makes yummy coconut milk, Kathy has an awesome recipe for homemade coconut milk yogurt on her blog, kathysrecipebox.com.We do some coconut products - milk and kefir, in smoothies already