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What is WRONG!! >.< with this DOG?!?!?!

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 
We've had a border collie for over 2 months now and up until now she'd been a dream come true for our whole family and now I'm not wanting her around my young girls or other dogs.........AT ALL! Yesterday she wrapped her jaw around a TINY dog and caused it to yelp! We apologized profusely but I can't wrap my head around what she did. I'm still as furious today about it as I was yesterday. This was a dog who had full priviledges as often as possible to run off her leash is safe areas, is well loved here, is fed very well and seemed so gentle around other dogs she met, seeminly attentive to whether they were older dogs who needed to be approached gently or a young whelp that she could bounce around. What the heck happened yesterday to pre-emt her to attack a dog that was smaller than her own tail. I'm just livid today, other family mem's have walked her today, I just can't look at her without remembering her diliberate disobedience to HALT and jumping our fence to get at that tiny puppy.
post #2 of 26
Hugs, that sounds like it was a stressful day!

I don't know a ton about dogs, but my dog when threw a rebellious stage when they were in there "teen age yrs" and I just had to really crack down on him so to speak. Like I used to be able to have him outside with out a chain if I was out there and he would stay in the yard and during that time he would run away right in front of me and then ignore my calls.

I was just very strict and he has turned into a wonderful dog, but depending on you dogs age and temperment that may no be the case/issue.

Hope you dog returns to his wonderful self soon.
post #3 of 26
Is it possible that the sight of the tiny puppy brought out some maternal instinct in your dog, and she was not trying to attack it but instead pick it up to move it to a safer place?
post #4 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by outlier View Post
Is it possible that the sight of the tiny puppy brought out some maternal instinct in your dog, and she was not trying to attack it but instead pick it up to move it to a safer place?
I wish I could think that, but my DH distinctely saw a look of *kill* in her eyes and went and jumped the fence and the puppy sure didn't sound too pleased and the threat of being bitten in half. I wish I had been turned around to see what happened, I only heard the pitiful cry of a tiny dog who was clearly not happy. What's more is that if our dog had caused serious damage to that puppy and DH not pounce on her to stop her, WE are the ones who could have had a law suit on our case, deservedly so. I'm ready to let her go to a farm where she can't hurt anyone, my family wants to try some ways to keep her. My DH believes she was abused by the man we got her from....single dad with 2 boys....I just don't know if she can truly be happy if that is the case??
post #5 of 26
How small was the other dog. What was it doing? It sounds like she may have high prey drive but there could be other issues as well. If she didnt seriously hurt the dog, thats good. She was in control as obviously with the size difference she could have done major damage in a second.

A little more info about what happened could be helpful. Also, how old is she, what kind of training have you done with her, etc.

Honestly, she was acting like a dog. It was NOT deliberate disobedience. She was fully focused on the other dog and most likely didnt even hear the command. Only having her for 2 months is a very short time to build up enough of a relationship to be able to call her out of a zone like that. I am not saying that she should be allowed to go after smaller dogs or that her behavior was appropriate, and that can be worked on. I am not sure why you no longer want her around your children?
post #6 of 26
How much exercise is she getting?
post #7 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenmagick View Post
How small was the other dog. What was it doing? It sounds like she may have high prey drive but there could be other issues as well. If she didnt seriously hurt the dog, thats good. She was in control as obviously with the size difference she could have done major damage in a second.

A little more info about what happened could be helpful. Also, how old is she, what kind of training have you done with her, etc.

Honestly, she was acting like a dog. It was NOT deliberate disobedience. She was fully focused on the other dog and most likely didnt even hear the command. Only having her for 2 months is a very short time to build up enough of a relationship to be able to call her out of a zone like that. I am not saying that she should be allowed to go after smaller dogs or that her behavior was appropriate, and that can be worked on. I am not sure why you no longer want her around your children?
I really wish I could offer more det's but have none. It was like a scene played in slow-mo; DH said "look at the cuuute tiny dog coming!" Before I could even register that I needed to turn around and see tiny dog, DH was warning her to STAY! and she barely looked at him before vaulting our fence. By the time 2 young 12/13 year old girls came in sight of our back fence, the taller girl was holding said tiny dog on her side away from me...so I never did get to see the cuuute tiny dog that my DH wanted me to see! I was horrified and shaking after it happened. I mean I totally did not see this coming; she's handled a previously rehabilitated dog from an attack with gentleness, this spaniel is older and less patient with a young 3 year old whelp who's all bouncy and I just loved her for that. Same with another 7 year old Sheltie that she made nice with in the park next door. She would really enjoy running free with me in that park and now I want to have her on her leash at all times. I feel like the trust I had in her is gone. My young children are mildly Autistic and *usually* act properly around our dog which is awesome for Autistic children BUT.....now I fear where there was total trust before. I am teaching my girls respect for doggie's toy and food and not to bother doggie when she needs her space but I am so much more vigilant today, paranoid too. The *what if's* have crept in and that's not a good thing.

lonegirl: she WAS getting a ton of exercise.......when I'd run her in the park, I made sure she got some good sprints in to get the excess energy out. NOW she has to walk at a human's pace at all times......in time that may not make her very happy. It's only been a day so maybe hasn't hit home and I haven't walked her yet since it happened. I've pulled all my back muscles this a.m. and can't walk myself to the bathroom so walking a dog is out, can't play, nothin'. But tomorrow when it's me, then what? She'll think it's sprint time and "no way".....I'm not taking any chances. It really hurts me to have to do that to her. I loved watching her run free and play with dogs and people and children walking to school etc. I'm as sad as I am mad.
post #8 of 26
There are a few different things that it could be. We've had some similar issues with one of our dogs, so I'll share what I have learned about this kind of stuff.

1) Lack of exercise. Playing in a yard, especially for working dog breeds like a collie, is not enough. They need tons of exercise, as well as exercises that keep their minds busy. A quick walk around the block isn't enough. Our dogs get 2-3 miles/day. It sucks to get up at 0'dark early to walk them, but it's what they need, you know? Agility training, plus basic obedience training can also be very helpful. Dogs like yours are extremely smart and constantly need new challenges. We go to 4 training classes a week between our two big dogs, and we're looking to add another one for our PITA frenchie who basically ignores everything we say lol.

2) You probably went through a honeymoon phase with your dog when you first got her, meaning that she was getting to know you, and you her, and you may have unintentionally encouraged behaviors that led to this. Not trying to snark or anything, these are just things we've learned about ourselves when going through this with our own dog.

3) She hasn't been shown her proper place in the pack, and therefore feels the need to step up as an alpha because she hasn't been shown who the real alpha is in your pack. Allowing your dogs on the furniture with you puts them, in their minds, on the same "Level" with you, and therefore confuses their place in the pack. Allowing them to go out any door before you also leads to this confusion. We practice NILIF, and our dogs always, always have to give before they get. They sit and wait patiently to go out, or I turn and walk away and come back after they've calmed down. They sit and wait patiently while I prepare their food, or else I leave and come back after they've calmed down. They lay down for treats, they do not, under any circumstances, initiate tug of war or any other power play type games, and when walking, they walk next to or behind, never in front.

All of this training has taken MONTHS to establish, and required massive amounts of behavior modification on our parts, not on the dogs part. To put things in perspective, our mastiff has a lot of trust and fear issues, which manifest as aggression. When we first got her, we couldn't even rub her belly because she was so mistrustful. With the help of our trainer, it took FORTY MINUTES to get her to relax and lay enough one day to rub her belly. We have to keep doing that every.single.day, and now she will usually give us her belly (for dogs that means they trust you). I wanted to cry the first time she did it, because it was such a huge step for her.

Not knowing her place in the pack can also lead to her feeling insecure, and will kind of give her the tendency to lash out when she feels that her (somewhat uncertain) place in the pack is being challenged, hence the attack on the puppy. Size doesn't really matter much in a pack, it's all about the personality of the dog. Our amazingly happy and outgoing rottweiler, who loves other dogs, and practices good dog manners when greeting, was very intimidated by a pack of Jack Russells that one of our trainers have. She knew it wasn't her pack, her turf, and that she wasn't in charge there. It was interesting to see.

4) Socialization. Get her out into a training class with other dogs, where she has to learn the proper way to greet other dogs, what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior with the other dogs, and you'll be surprised at how much of your own behavior can contribute to unwanted behavior in your own dogs. I recently learned that my own reactions to our dogs fear was encouraging it, instead of comforting her like I thought I was. We have a tendency as compassionate people to humanize our dogs, when really, that's just not how their brain works. Once I stopped even looking at my dog when she would start acting scared or fearful, and just went on with whatever was going on, business as usual, I was amazed at how much her demeanor changed when she saw that raking the yard wasn't scary, nor was me sweeping the floors, and the noise made from me dishing out their food was a good thing, she really changed.

You also have to realize that her behavior isn't really willful disobedience on her part, it's more about her instincts and her learned behavior. You cannot react with anger when she does something bad, you really have to continue on, business as usual. They are not people, and don't understand the concept of punishment like people do, you know?

We still have a lot of work to do, our trainer pretty much laid it out months ago that this was going to be a work in progress, and that if we weren't willing to commit, we needed to rehome ASAP, so we know there's a long road ahead.

If you aren't using a trainer, I highly recommend you find one to help you out. A good trainer is totally worth their weight in gold, at least to us lol.

I hope this giant book of a post was helpful to you.
post #9 of 26
Also, collies are herding dogs, if I'm not mistaken. I know there are programs and clubs out there that allow you to bring your dog for "herding" at farms and other places, to give them the mental and physical exercise they're bred to need. You might look into that. I've heard that it really helps for some dogs who have a very strong instinct to herd. That might be why she likes playing with the kids so much, because she likely feels that she's herding them. You'll have to be careful with that, because, if she gets too dominant with her herding/playing, she could nip to correct the kids. I don't view it as bad, because she's not attacking, but it's not a behavior you want, you know?
post #10 of 26
Thread Starter 
Thanks SquishyKitty: You've been more than informative and I will have to reread your post a few times to cover most of what you've suggested and deduced from my posts. I think today.......when we go and get fish supplies at PetSmart, I know they have training classes there, I'm going to make some inquiries about what classes look like. The only thing I know we're doing well is the alpha set up; she isn't allowed on beds or furniture. She sleeps on the floor beside our bed, bought her a bed of her own, she won't use it, that's ok. We go through doors first and it was actually my 17 year old that was the very first to say that our dog shouldn't be allowed in the kitchen during dinner time which we all agreed on. Today as well we're going to have to find her a place to run where she can get her energies out now that I'm keeping her on a leash within the city unless I want to seek out a dog park which sounds tacky to me but then I've never really seen how big they are.

I'm feeling a bit less upset today, shock's worn off. Interesting about the herding of our girls; I think I could imagine her doing that but so far if she presumes that if I'm playing chase with either girl, she steps in now, barks at me, checks on either twin, then comes back and barks at me again and lays there. I try to keep a straight face at that but it does look funny, the girls don't fear her which was another great sign to me, the bark was only was bark, not a chorus of growls, barks and snarls so she didn't seem threatening at all. I'd been looking into an Autistic Service Dog through a local organization but believed this dog to be as good as any that they would provide us with. I've worked with them a bit where I learned the alpha set up rules but when we found this dog needing a home, she just fit in really well. There's a lot of *matching* that's done when placing a service dog with an Autistic child and our girls took to this dog very well and vice versa. Ergo so much shock and sadness that the trust wavered like that. I really want this to work. I'm also convinced of prior abusive treatment, we can't prove it of course, just some recessive behaviour during certain actions that make us go HUH?!

Thanks again, I have a lot of reading to do,lol. I don't mind the novel, wouldn't have posted a thread asking advice if I didn't want to hear it!

You've all been really helpful!
post #11 of 26
Squishy Kitty posted some great ideas, however a lot of the alpha and pack hierarchy stuff is not quite right. NILIF does work wonderfully...it gives the dog expectations and creates a bond. However, a dog does not view humans as pack mates. Letting a dog walk in front of you or up on the furniture is perfectly fine as long as the dog has manners. For example, my dogs are always to go out the door first...just easier for me with the kids. However, they do not barge past or push. They still know wait. But barging past wouldnt make them think they are alpha, its just rude behavior.

A dog does need a leader but not necessarily an "alpha".

Training classes are a wonderful idea. Petsmart ones are not all bad, however, they are usually basic obedience, and do not address individual issues. In your situation I would work with behaviorist. If this was dog aggression you need to be careful in modifying it. Many people will "correct" a dog for aggressive behavior and that can actually escalate it. A behaviorist will be able to read your dogs body language and give you a much better idea about what is going on. You can go to http://www.ccpdt.org/index.php?optio...tree&Itemid=16 and search your area for a certified trainer.

I'll give a quick example of the behavior modification I am working on with my dane regarding our chickens. I use a clicker. You can also use a marker word like "yes" but a clicker is much clearer to a dog. First step is to put chicken out in a fence that Ivy can see through and put her on a leash. Walk her around far from the chickens. Everytime she turns away from them click/treat. As she ignores them more and more, I move closer and closer. If I get too close and she looses focus on me, I would back up again. After a bit of doing with her not reacting at all to the chickens, the next step is her on a long line with chickens in fence. Then her loose with chickens in fence. Then her on leash with chickens loose. Then her on long line with chickens loose.
post #12 of 26
I'm glad to hear you're feeling better about the whole thing. Squisykitty gave some great advice, (I don't agree with the alpha theory, but that's beside the point right now, and the advice is still the same - dog needs to trust you as leader ).

I don't think the behavior had anything to do with an abusive background. (We have had several very abused rescues over the years.) Sounds like plain ol' prey drive to me, and the fact that the pup was basically unharmed points to excellent bite inhibition, which is arguably the single most important quality in a family pet. I'm of the opinion that ALL dogs will bite under the right circumstances, so its heartening to know that yours has proper bite inhibition.

If it makes you feel any better, given half the chance, our boxer mix will catch, kill, and eat small animals - chickens, squirrels (ew!!), yet he is perfectly safe with our cats (inside and out) and of course our children. Dogs are predators yes, but they are also highly intelligent and highly social animals who know the difference between a squirrel and the family cat

I also think training is a great idea It will give you both more confidence and a greater "vocabulary" to communicate with eachother.
post #13 of 26
I agree that there could be no prior abuse, our mastiff came from a very very loving home, they really loved her but didn't have the ability to meet her growing needs, and I couldn't see them hurting the dog in any way, any more than we could be abusive to the dogs. It just wouldn't happen.

I won't argue the concepts of alpha vs. consensually living with your pets, I don't think this is the right place for that, but I think you are going to be just fine with your dog. I know how it feels to think everything is fine, and then have that shattered by one small thing with your dog.

Do you or your DH jog? Smaller/medium dogs like yours are great for joggers, and it gives them great exercise. Or, riding a bike with her if you're able to. I'm too afraid of doing that with my dogs, they're clumsy and goofy and it would end very badly, I think.

Our dogs get exercise, and the running and playing is extra, not their primary means. We walk them for a couple miles, then we hit an open field where they can run and play for a few minutes. We run them very hard lol.
post #14 of 26
I see this as prey drive also, which is not unusual in herding breeds from what I understand. One of my dogs is very prey driven and one of the things that I've found with her is that if a tiny dog is being carried, she doesn't register it as a "dog" but rather a small fuzzy thing to be eaten. If the dog is on the ground, she seems to recognize that it's a dog by the way it moves. My other dog on the other hand thinks small fuzzy dogs are prey also, especially if they're running around or making squeaky noises, which just goes to show you how individual they are.

IMO it doesn't mean that the dog is unsafe around people at all. Actually both of mine adore kids. There is a great distinction in their mind between the species.

At this point I'd be taking some more precautions though. It sounds like you may need a taller fence or perhaps an extension on the top of your current fence. Some people have also had good luck with planting shrubs in front of the fence to block access to it somewhat. Out of curiosity, how tall is your fence? I know some very athletic dogs can even clear a 6 foot one.

Also, I think it's way too early to let your dog offleash! You've only had her for 2 months - as a PP said you're only just getting through the "honeymoon" period. After such a short time I wouldn't expect any dog to be reliable enough to be off leash safely. Plus you really need her to be super reliable to ANY command when off leash. It's not just about her being non-aggressive but also if there is another dog there they may not appreciate a bouncy dog running up to them and you may end up with a fight on your hands if you can't call her off (and it would be your fault as the one with the unleashed dog).

I hear that you feel bad about limiting her free running, but keep in mind that for working breeds the mental exercise is just as important as the physical exercise. And as usual I totally agree with everything that greenmagick said.
post #15 of 26
I also think its a prey drive problem. If the dog was very tiny, she likely didn't recognize it as a dog. Dogs with high prey drive see something tiny and furry and categorize it with squirrels and rabbits and other small furry things that are fun to chase- heck, she might even be encouraged to chase them. What she did seems completely natural to me- not that I think it was good, but I don't think it makes her a bad or dangerous dog, except to very small dogs. From what you described, I dont think she's a danger to your children. I would look into getting a good, positive trainer and see if you cant work with her to accept tiny dogs- if she cant be taught to recognize them as dogs and act appropriately, maybe she could at least learn to ignore them on command.
post #16 of 26
Thread Starter 
This tiny tot was on the ground but was carried away by one of the young girls it was with which is why I never saw the pup; she had it on her opposite side to me after our dog vaulted the fence. I wonder if prey drive is that high since of ALL the dogs she's been in contact with this was her first not cool act and I like the idea that she had good bite control. The only dog that I've never allowed her near.....at all.....is a Greyhound that lives 4 units down from us. *I* know that the Grey can't handle much as I've spoken to her owner well before our dog came along and she is beyond skittish around other dogs and I pet her beautiful skinny head and she is just shaking the whole time. *wonders if that's with all Greys?* So no matter how wonderful our dog could possibly be, I don't think she could handle ours at any level. Other than that she'd always been super cool up until Saturday. I've inquired about prices of training at PetSmart yesterday; she has to go through a basic training (not puppy training) course, either being necessary before I can put her into a discipline training program. I saw the description of the use of a clicker so there is an awesome chance I can get our dog to learn well and YAY! for us that we are moving next year and are totally looking into a rural home; it will be better for our family and dog as well. So until that happens, I'm hoping we can get her disciplined in her actions. I've relaxed more about her being around my girls, she's still protective of them which is a good thing and still let them discover her as special needs children. I really want to continue to see the good in her.
post #17 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~girlsmum~ View Post
*I* know that the Grey can't handle much as I've spoken to her owner well before our dog came along and she is beyond skittish around other dogs and I pet her beautiful skinny head and she is just shaking the whole time. *wonders if that's with all Greys?*
Not at all, one of my dogs is a greyhound and he adores people. He does have a shaky leg thing going on sometimes when we stand still for too long on a walk (he's going to be 11 years old this week) but he isn't afraid of people or dogs at all.
post #18 of 26
many rescued greys do have more then their fair share of fear and anxiety...but not all. And regardless of breed, some dogs are just fearful, and some just dont like other dogs.
post #19 of 26
Thread Starter 
Well that's awesome to hear as this Grey's owner said not only were rescued Grey's expected to be fearful of people as an aftershock of their track days; but they also have a tendency towards vexed digestions as well. I took her word for it as she's a psychotherapist so if she knows the workings of human behaviours why not animals too?? I'm glad to be wrong though. Today's gone well, more walks are being done to compensate for the lack of free sprints in the park next door, looking into some open spaces outside city limits for that and discussing again today our big move next year. Looking forward to that!
post #20 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~girlsmum~ View Post
Well that's awesome to hear as this Grey's owner said not only were rescued Grey's expected to be fearful of people as an aftershock of their track days; but they also have a tendency towards vexed digestions as well.
Mayhem retired when he was 5.5 years old and he certainly wasn't scarred by the experience. Now I've met quite a few greyhounds and a couple of them were fearful, but not a large proportion. Personally I think that skittish dogs would be very difficult to handle in the racing kennels and on the track, where they have many dogs and can't give them much individual attention. I wouldn't be surprised if those got shipped to adoption groups at a much earlier age, along with poor race performers.

They do seem to have sensitive tummies and a propensity to bad teeth though - but shortly after getting Mayhem we started to feed a raw diet which really helps with both.
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