Back with another travel question--international families tell me what you've done!

[La Sombra]

I posted here a couple of months ago about a question regarding dd and international travel with STBX and received many helpful responses. That question mostly concerned the legal appropriateness of my letting her go (I didn't), but my question now is a bit different:

STBX has told me that he wants to take dd to England, where he is from and where his family lives, this summer for two weeks. Dd is going to be 3 years old in a month. Here are the two ways in which I'm thinking about it:

1.
a) It truly is important to me that she have a relationship with both her dad and the family of her dad, who I know adore her. I want to facilitate those relationships to the extent possible.

b) I realize that part of this situation--being divorced, which in fact was my choice--is going to mean sacrifices and compromises on my part (even dd's part ?) that I perhaps wouldn't have had to have otherwise made. In the ideal situation, we'd be a family and we'd be going to England together and so none of this would be an issue. But we're not and so I kind of feel that I'm going to have to accept a less-than-ideal situation.

On the other hand, I think:
2.
a) She is still too young to be away from me for 2 weeks seeing as how we've never been apart longer than one day in her whole life. I don't doubt that she will be well looked-after (if not exactly in the fashion that I would do it--X-ils will insist that she eats all the food on her plate before she can leave the table and they also discourage crying, etc.). I'm trying really hard to think of HER and now just me and how I will feel (which is bereft) but I really think this is a long time for her.

b) I'm expecting the birth of her baby brother at the end of July, which is when STBX wants to take her. On the one hand, it would be kind of nice to have a little time alone with the new baby but mostly I think that it would be kind of weird for HER to go away for two weeks and come back and suddenly there is this new baby that is taking up all of mummy's time. The proposed trip (which coincides with a wedding STBX wants to attend, along with the 70th bday of his father, so I don't think he's flexible on that) COULD happen before OR after the birth of my LO, it's too close to say, so maybe this worry will prove moot but at this point I just don't know.

Possibilities are also suggesting a shorter trip than two weeks--but then how much do you all think is reasonable? Again, I'm trying to balance what is best for dd with the very real and understandable desire of her family in England to see her and spend time with her. Also: it isn't, unfortunately, possible for X-ils to travel here, as X-fil is very unwell and isn't up for international travel.

So for those of you in similar situations, how do you do this?! How can I balance everyone's needs but do what is ultimately best for dd? I'm so confused right now but I'll need to start talking with STBX about this soon because he'll be wanting to buy the tickets...

Thank you all again for your insight and thoughts!!!!!!!

PS-Ah, I should make clear that the divorce will be final by then, so there won't really be the legal issues that I alluded to in my earlier thread.

[honey-lilac]

Take my advice with a grain of salt because I'm the partner who wants to take the kids overseas (where I'm from) and STBX who is not thrilled about the idea. On the other hand, I'm also a mother (duh) and so my view is a bit different.

If I were you, I would allow your DD to be able to visit overseas, every year even. I'm assuming there are no concerns with your STBX actually keeping her there against your will; it doesn't sound that way. In the case that he is on the up and up, I would be fine with annual visits. BUT, I don't think to up and send her for two weeks, abruptly, to the other side of the ocean is fair to a three year old. Heck, two weeks is a pretty large stretch of time for ME to be away from my home. Imagine for a 3 year old? I would ask your STBX to please shorten the time. Maybe either attend the wedding OR the 70th birthday. Yes, divorce involves compromises, but that includes on his part too. If you were an ideal family of three going over there, 2 weeks would be fine. But for a three year old, that's too long I think. (Just my opinion, based on MY kids.)

As far as it happening before or after the birth of the baby... that is out of your control and not something for you to stress over. She'll get over it whether or not the baby is born while she's away. All kids have issues adjusting at first, I don't think that's going to make or break the situation. Explain to her that the baby is coming, maybe while she's gone, and then call her if the baby does come, maybe email some photos, etc, so it's not a shock to her when she comes home and there's this new person there. She *will* probably need you a bit more and her routine will be disrupted a bit when she comes home, but perhaps that's a blessing in disguise - she can get used to the new routine with the baby there. I hope you have tons of help available, though, because I'm sure she will want some undivided mama-attention when she gets back; maybe someone can sit with the baby while your DD gets one-on-one mama time.

ETA: I see you asked for suggestions of how long we'd think is reasonable... I'd say no more than a week.

[Ione]

If the divorce is indeed final, and the custody agreement clearly addresses international travel and puts limits on it (as in, length of visits and when she is to be returned to you, provisions on who can/will accompany her on the trip, etc.), then...

I think you have to put more weight on 1 a.

Yes, two weeks away from you will probably be rough on her. Especially if she's not used to going more than 1 day. But she will survive. It will not harm your bond with her.

And, the jet lag is a bitch, which makes anything less than about 2 weeks really brutal for little kids too because she'd have no time to adjust to the time difference and enjoy her time there.

You can work up to longer periods of separation from you before then... weekends, or whatever, so the separation isn't so much of a shock. I am assuming that he will have overnights as part of the custody agreement anyway. So, by then, she'll be used to going at least a few days without seeing you.

If he's agreeable to it, you can also use skype or other to have video calls so she can see and hear you while she's there. I'd recommend setting specific days/times in advance. (For example, will he be calling nightly to say goodnight when she's with you? If so, ask that you be allowed to do the same when she's with him.)

Re: the new baby. She'll have to make the adjustment to sharing you regardless.

If you have the baby right before she leaves, there's the risk that she might feel jealous that the baby doesn't have to leave you OR feel really special that she's "big enough" to go but the "baby's too baby to go". Depends on her personality and how you sell it.

If you don't have the baby until she's back, and have the baby right away after she gets back, she might have a harder time sharing you if she's not adjusted to being back when the baby's born.

If the baby's born while she's away, that might give you some time to adjust to the new baby and you'd be more "there for her" after those first few days have past...

You just can't know. And, there's no guarantee as to when exactly the baby'll come. If you were certain that you could time the birth for exactly the "right" day, that would be one thing. But since you can't guarantee when the baby'll come (early, late or on time), I don't think you should plan this trip around the birth, really.

It's not like she doesn't know a baby is on the way. You could plan, with your ex, for a video conference to introduce her to the baby before she gets back if the baby's born while she's there.

Dunno.

If as many legal guarantees as possible are in place to ensure that it is only a vacation with family abroad, you are going to have to bite the bullet and let her go at some point. And, that point will most likely be earlier than you'd like.

I wouldn't fight it. Use the upcoming trip as leverage to get the best provisions possible to cover such trips in your custody agreement (who pays, how often, passport applications, who holds the passport(s)--does she have dual citizenship?, etc.). But don't fight the trip itself.

That's my 2 cents.

[meemee]

what is her personality like?

is she a total social child who loves parties and people and big crowds? is she a homebody or does she love going out and on 'adventures'?

does she prefer structure or can she go with the flow? does she need predictability?

what kind of people does she prefer if you can tell? teenagers? old people? her age? slightly older? are those age people going to be around? does she revel in attention? or is she mainly shy and hides?

this is a wedding AND gpa's 70th bday. i would let her go. i would 'pump' her up and prepare her and start buying for the trip and see how she reacts. i would NOT spring it on her suddenly near the time she has to go.

i am happy that her dad even wants to take her you know.

less than two weeks is just not worth it. if she can stay for two weeks or even a week she can manage a month. by the time she gets used to the time change it would be time to fly back if you did less than 2 weeks. you dont call her. have ex call you when dd wants to talk to you. with some kids mama calling is a reminder and it upsets them.

i would make sure they are there at least 3 days before any celebration giving your dd a chance to settle down.

the thing is you just dont know how she is going to react. if she is a shy homebody who needs structure then you really have to think hard if you should let her go because the chances are she might have a hard time to adjust. if she is a gregarious party girl then it would be just her thing and she would have a blast. soo really depends on personality. however you still dont really know unless you try it. and two weeks is a good enough time period to make it work.

in general i have brought up my dd even at 3 to see that life is bitter sweet. you have fun at the cost of something. show your dd pictures of her family in england. not just gparents but uncles and cousins. if you can have a couple of them call her and talk to her.

if you do decide to send her try separating from her now and see what happens.

when i went home when dd was 8 months old she was in the throes of stranger/separation anxiety. i get to my mom's who also lives in an apt adn there is a steady stream of people coming to visit. they all want to hold dd. the first couple of days she shies. but then she figures out if she goes to them they take her out 'visiting'. she became a new child. a child i would not have expected. my 'leech velcro' child happily was gone for hours. yes HOURS!!! this is the child who would cry if there was an inch space between us. the teenagers would come and 'borrow' her and they would surround her in their apt and invite their friends and play with her. the pictures i have of dd with them are the happiest face picture ever. seh missed them sooo much when we came back. all her anxieties were gone never to come back again.

so when someone asks me how my child will behave i say i dont really know. she has surprised me over and over again. she did great on the flight too.

has she spent overnights with daddy? i would do that immediately to see how it goes if you havent.

my ex and i have completely different parenting styles. however one thing i discovered was that on holidays they parent v. little. others love helping. and because they are getting breaks as a parent they become better parent. there is no way my ex would have ever contemplated taking dd away for two weeks. that would be too much parenting time for him.

before making a decision i would try out different situations and see how dd does. leave her with someone when she is at her best and see what happens. have her spend overnights with dad if seh doesnt and see what happens.

i too am huge on family connection. and huge too on chldren's resilience. they are amazing unpredictable little people who constantly surprise us. she might have a hard time the first couple of days. but she will adapt. esp. if someone is there to nurture her and spoil her and let her get her way. i find ex is v. strict with dd. however he loves her too and nurtures her in his way. and so dd feels connected to him. he IS the fun dad.

is she a new 3 or closer to 4? that would also make a difference.

[La Sombra]

Thank you so much, mamas. She will just have turned three before the trip is to be scheduled (that is, less than two months earlier).

I think what you are all saying--even if you might differ on some of the details--is that kids are resilient and not to stress myself too much worrying about controlling all the details. I think that is VERY helpful advice.

I hear you all on the jet lag, and I also appreciate that several of you mamas are more in my STBX's position (at least in terms of living away from your home country) and I appreciate your perspective. I still have a feeling in my gut that 2 weeks is too long for her, although I've no doubt that she'd survive it!

The other thing is that STBX has a brother here with four kids and my dd sees them a fair amount and spends time with them. In England, there is an extended family that I'm sure she'll see probably one or maybe two times and they all have children, but there is only one child near her age (he'll be six, I think, so three years older); the others are all teens or pre-teens. But they are all good with her and she does enjoy being around them all. Her grandparents are older (than my parents, that is!) and her grandpa is not well and will not be able to do anything in terms of looking after her but he will be so happy just to see her and spend time with her; her grandma, at 70, has lots of energy and will probably do more looking after dd than STBX will! She adores my dd but is quite strict, a sort of traditional English mum.

The wedding that STBX wants to go to is actually in TUSCANY so he'll be flying to Italy for the weekend and leaving Sunny in the care of his parents for that weekend. The bday party of his father is not set in stone, he is just thinking about being there for one should there actually be a party.

She isn't shy, particularly, but if she doesn't get good sleep she can get quite ratty. Generally, though, she's a pretty go-with-the-flow-type kid.

She has had overnights with her dad since the beginning--two per week, so she is used to that. She is day care when she's with him, though, so really they don't get a lot of time together so having this trip will be really special for them both.

Thank you all again for your input, I do so appreciate it!

[meemee]

about strictness. children feeel the love. seriously. dd's gpa was so so so strict with her. but dd never notices it. she does exactly what he wants and happily too - things she wouldnt do for me without arguing.

there is just a whole specialness around other people loving our children than is absolutely irrisplaceable. ooh i made up a word.

and another thing - sit with your gut feeling.

last summer my dd too was gone for 2 weeks. but she was 6. she had never been away from me for more than 24 hours. i knew she was not ready for it. i was right and wrong. she missed me terribly, BUT she had a BLAST. when she flew in thru the door she gave me a most meaningful hug and said with a quiver in her voice how much she missed me. mind you she was still nursing. so we sat and talked. the best thing about the trip was her cousins and aunts. the worst thing about the trip - that it had to end. i burst out laughing. i was in hysterics. she just said she REALLY missed me but didnt wanna come back. it really told me what a blast she had. we spent the next couple of days connected at the hip.

this summer i will be gone for 2 months and i am not sure if her dad will let her come. i have been preparing her as well as my friends to take her on playdates. she is going to miss me terribly. i know. but she will also have a blast being in the swim program.