Christians... free will?

[bluebirdiemama]

Hey all,

I am Christian and do believe that we all have free will, while God knows our every future step.

This can seem like a contradiction to both christians and non... I know it to be true mostly by faith.

I am going through some things, having to do with tying my past to my present and future, and I think it might help me to hear some christian insight on this topic...

thanks

[Shami]

The first thing that came to my mind is in Phil. 3. I, too, have my struggles with free will right know although I think the Lord is answering some questions for me.

I noticed one of your posts in the thread about common law living together and wanted to say something then, but didn't.

I just try to forget about my past. It's over and even if you are living with some consequence of your past, it's still best to forget. This is what Paul says in Phil 3. Although Paul is referring to all of his 'good' past, his training, his heritage, he says he counts it as refuse (trash,dung) that he may gain Christ. Stretch forward toward the goal which is in Christ Jesus. Reject those memories that are weighing you down.

If you haven't already done so, sit down with the Lord and have a thorough confession of all that you feel is bothering your conscience or hindering your pursuit of the Lord. Once you have confessed and asked for forgiveness and cleansing, forget about it. When it comes up in your mind, tell Satan to take a hike and look at the blood that cleansed you.

Romans 8 says there is now then no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. Where the spirit of the Lord is there is liberty.

Phil 3

7 But what things were gains to me, these I have counted as loss on account of Christ.

8 But moreover I also count all things to be loss on account of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, on account of whom I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as refuse that I may gain Christ

9 And be found in Him, not having my own righteousness which is out of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is out of God and based on faith,

10 To know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,

11 If perhaps I may attain to the out-resurrection from the dead.

Hope this helps. I also hope my post doesn't sound too presumptuous. I have had lots of guilt and been helped by my spiritual parents to over come by the blood of Christ and it's cleansing power.

[Shami]

One more thing that someone once told me and it has really stuck with me and that is this:

You don't have the past, and you don't have the future. You only have right now. Gain the now Christ. Gain Christ in this moment because that is really all you have.

[Smokering]

Well, I don't believe in free will... (cue all of MDC RS groaning and saying "Great, not her again!") I don't see how "we all have free will" and "God knows our every future step" are logically reconcilable, and I don't believe "faith" can substitute for reasoning, as that's not the way the term "faith" is used in the Bible.

If God knows what you're going to do next week, then is it possible He's mistaken? No; so while you may appear to have a free choice in the matter, your actions are already determined, because there is no possibility of your acting differently to the way God has foreseen.

[Shami]

My response/questions in blue.

Originally Posted by Smokering

Well, I don't believe in free will... (cue all of MDC RS groaning and saying "Great, not her again!") I don't see how "we all have free will" and "God knows our every future step" are logically reconcilable, Why can't God be all knowing of what we will do and let us have free will? Can you say more please? Disclaimer: I do not have an analytical mind, so I sometimes have trouble following. and I don't believe "faith" can substitute for reasoning, I don't believe Bluebirdie is substituting faith and reasoning. Maybe I am misunderstanding your meaning. My def. of faith is the substantiation of things not seen, which is quite unreasonable to ones who do not have faith. Hope that make sense! Many times I have faith in the Lord for something or someone and it may seem quite unreasonable and even unexplainable, but alas, faith is there. as that's not the way the term "faith" is used in the Bible.

If God knows what you're going to do next week, then is it possible He's mistaken? No; so while you may appear to have a free choice in the matter, your actions are already determined, because there is no possibility of your acting differently to the way God has foreseen.

I forgot to say that I'm not groaning. BTW, what does RS stand for? I just started looking into the free will stuff and i can see there are a lot of verses suggesting that God is in complete control of everything, but still there is something in me saying that I do have free will. I don't know how to reconcile that, and i never even thought much about it until I came to this forum not too long ago.

[Smokering]

RS = Religious Studies, ie. this forum.

Why can't God be all knowing of what we will do and let us have free will? Can you say more please?

Because if God knows that an event will happen, it can't NOT happen (because if it didn't happen, that would mean God was wrong, or non-omniscient). Another way of saying "it can't not happen" is that it has to happen. And if it has to happen, it will happen, so we can't do anything to prevent it happening.

To put it in a specific context: if God knows you're going to eat a doughnut on Dec 22, there is no way Dec 22 is going to come and go without you eating that doughnut. Agreed? Otherwise God wouldn't really have "known", he'd just have guessed - and guessed wrongly, which doesn't say much for Him. So the fact of your doughnut-eating is logically fixed, ie. determined. So how is your will "free", when it is impossible for you to have done anything other than eaten the doughnut? It certainly feels free, ie. you don't find yourself wandering zombie-like into the cafe and ordering it in a fugue state... but it could have happened no other way, so it wasn't truly free at all.

As for "faith", the word has various shades of meaning in the Bible, one of them being the definition you mention. Nowhere in the Bible is it used to indicate belief in something that doesn't make sense; the more common meaning is trust in something based on the evidence. For instance, one can trust in God during illness because the evidence of the Bible suggests He has power over sickness. One can't trust that God can make a square circle, because that's a logical impossibility. I believe the whole foreknowledge coexisting with free will thing is a logical impossibility. I might very well be wrong, but I'd have to be proven wrong by argument - appealing to "faith" won't cut it, because faith needs to have a rational basis. Which the OP may very well have, I hasten to add. I just don't want to waste time talking at cross purposes if she's OK with believing something illogical, say (an attitude I've come across a lot in religious debate), because we'll just end up annoying each other and getting nowhere. I'm not sure if she's looking for debate on the free will thing or more like personal advice - if the latter, I'll bow out because I suck at personal advice.

[Shami]

Rats! My illogical brain cannot comprehend this.

I don't get why God can't know what we will choose. I don't see this as negating His omniscience.

Here is how I think it occurs in our being. Our mind thinks of a donut which triggers our emotions. Depending on your emotions regarding eating a donut, several options can take place. You could get happy and go for it. You could debate the pros and cons. You could wallow in guilt over the mere thought of eating the donut. Those are just a few scenarios.
Once your emotions come into the picture things could get very complicated and no longer rational 'in your mind' type thoughts. So then based on whatever scenario, you decide to either eat it or not, which is your will. Why can't God know that you are going to go through all of this and know the outcome? He doesn't need to choose the outcome in order to know the outcome, does He?

The other thing is this:
I believe we have a spirit as well. This is the deepest part of our being where God lives. The Holy Spirit has entered into my human spirit and are mingled together. Christ lives in me. At anytime I can choose to exercise my spirit just like I would exercise my mind or my body. If I exercise my spirit while deciding whether I should eat the donut, meaning I pray and contact the Lord about the donut, I realize the Lord said, no, do not eat the donut.
But then on another day I don't pray or exercise my spirit and I eat 8 donuts. God knows I am weak and He may know that I will eat 8 donuts, but that doesn't mean He predetermined me to eat 8 donuts.

Having trouble formulating my reasoning here and like you, I'm not sure what Bluebirdie is looking for...this may be off topic for her. Have you discussed this in a previous thread? If so, could you link it for me? Thanks.

[lilmom]

I agree with you bluebird..
I think we have free will. I think God knows what we will do, but that doesn't mean that HE ultimately planned out what we were going to do before we did it. Just that he knows.

Kind of like, as a mother, when you know your child and his personality and temperament, and you put two toys out within his reach. You know which one he will choose, but you didn't make that decision for him. He still chose whichever one he chose.

*but* it is a little different than that, because being human, we can't always know 100% of the time what our child will choose. But God does know. It doesn't mean he picked for us. It means he knows us so well, he knows what we will do. Remember he knows the number of hairs on our head. He knows our thoughts. He knows everything about us.

However, that doesn't mean we don't have choice.

All that being said..something I have struggled with in my life is, did I make the RIGHT choice about this or that. But my faith tells me that I made the choice that ultimately gets me to a better place. Even though at times it sure doesn't feel like it. That doesn't mean we don't have to fight those feelings of regret. It's human nature.

[Smokering]

OK, let me see if I can rephrase my argument. Hmm.

God knowing anything, be it the final decision (I will eat the doughnut!) or the steps in the decision-making process (there isn't another shop for miles and I forgot to eat breakfast), means that it is fixed. Because if God says "I know X will happen", then X will happen. It has to, otherwise God can't really be said to be all-knowing. If God says "She's going to eat a doughnut", then it's as good as done - because God doesn't make mistakes.

But God ALSO knows the process by which you will come to that decision. He knows that you will, say, subconsciously be influenced by memories of your grandmother's doughnuts. So if he knows those elements of the decision-making process, they're likewise guaranteed to happen (otherwise he doesn't really "know", right? He just guesses). So, yes, people use rational and non-rational processes to make decisions, but God knows those too, so that doesn't get around the problem.

And the problem is this: if something is definitely going to occur - and we know it is, because God knows it is - then there's nothing we can do to stop it. I'm not talking about avoiding shady prophecies in a sci-fi film, I'm talking about something which is ACTUALLY going to definitely, without-a-doubt going to happen - ie, something God has foreseen. So whatever we choose to do, by whatever thought processes we use to reach that decision, God has already seen it and thus there was no other possible way events could have played out. If God foresaw we were going to eat a doughnut, it is not possible for us to not eat that doughnut. Our actions - and the thought processes that led to those actions - could only happen the way God saw them, otherwise He dudn't really KNOW we were going to do/think them.

I'm not sure that's any clearer.

To use an analogy, if you're watching Pride and Prejudice for the eighth time you KNOW that Darcy and Elizabeth will end up together. You have "foreseen" it, or in this case, seen it before. There is no way Darcy and Elizabeth could decide to go with any other series of events than those you know are coming up on the DVD. That doesn't mean that the characters within the story don't have perfectly good motivations and reasoning behind the choices they make. They do - that's why it's a great story. But if it's true that you really, absolutely KNOW what they'll do (ie, you don't have a faulty memory, you're not confusing the story with Persuasion, etc), then isn't it impossible for them to do otherwise? And if it's impossible for them to behave otherwise, then how is their behavior "free"? It's fixed - predetermined, in fact.

I'm not sure that's a great analogy, especially as you as the viewer aren't also causing the events of the film, and I'd probably have to come up with a workaround in which God was Jane Austen, or at least whoever directed the BBC Pride and Prejudice - the Keira Knightley version, obviously, being directed by Satan himself, but that's another post. Oh well.

I can have a stab at the argument from another angle if you want, but let me know if that makes any more sense.

lilmom: The issue I have with your mother-child analogy is that you're talking about, essentially, an educated guess. Foreknowledge is more than that - it's God actually SEEING and KNOWING what will happen. It'd be more like if you looked into a crystal ball and saw your child eating the cookie... and, uh, somehow knew for a fact that it was true. Which I'd be leery of with a crystal ball, myself.

[lilmom]

Smokering..LOL at your comment on the Keira Knightly version of Pride and Prejudice. We definitely agree on that!

I did say God's knowing and a mom's knowing were different though. I wasn't trying to say they were exactly the same. One is true knowledge..fact. The other an educated guess, like you said.

My point of using that analogy though, was that God offers us choices. I do not think that he has predetermined what we will do. I think he knows what the end outcome will be. I think he knows what will happen either way.

I don't believe in predestination. I believe we all choose our fate.

I think your point is that if God knows what will happen, we can't choose otherwise. But I just disagree. I think we can. I just think we don't.

I just think knowing and predetermining for us are 2 different things. And with that, I have to get some sleep tonight! Very interesting points from everyone.

[Smokering]

OK, I’ll try to present the problem in a different way (just cause I’m on a roll and this topic cam up recently on a theology board, and I’d like to hash it out while it’s fresh!).

Making an entity a certain way determines its limitations, functions and behavior. So if you make a computer that operates in binary, it will operate in binary. If you make a ball, it will be round. If you make a beetle that craves cheese, it will try to eat cheese. If you make a dog with a fear of heights, it will avoid heights.

A computer is not free to think in non-binary terms; a ball is not free to be square; a beetle is not free to decide it doesn’t crave cheese; a dog is not free to decide not to be afraid of heights. (It might overcome that fear of heights by other design perameters, like the desire to avoid pain or the desire to rescue its master from a cliff, but the point is it can’t escape those design perameters, whatever they are.)

Similarly, humans are created. And God made us a certain way, which determines how we think and act. We have to think like people – we aren’t free to think like god, or angels, or woodchucks, because God didn’t make us those things. Most of the time, this plays out in predictable ways – humans in general have attributes like the desire for companionship, the desire to be thought attractive, sexual impulses, a liking for sweet foods, vision for a certain range of the electromagnetic spectrum. We don’t choose to have those things. We certainly can’t “choose” to see in infra-red. There are certainly people with different perameters – some people don’t have sexual desires, for instance. But those people cannot act outside their perameters either – they can’t choose to have sexual desires. They aren’t free to do that.

So basically, anything created is not really free. It is limited by how it was made. Humans were made in very specific ways, therefore they are limited. I was born in 1986 – I had no power to choose to be born in 1486 or 286, yet every single choice I have made would have been different if I’d been born in those centuries. I was born mildly Aspie – I didn’t choose that, yet it influences how I relate to people and even think on a deep, unescapable level. When it comes down to it, I didn’t freely choose anything. My choices were shaped by a vast array of circumstances utside my control, from my physical appearance to my nutrition in early childhood, my race, my language, my talents and deficiencies. So given this massive tangle of influences and factors totally outside my control, how can I not be said to have my behavior determined by my makeup? I am not free to be a man or a mountain; I can’t just decide to be neurotypical; I can’t “free-will” myself into having better coordination or longer legs. And similarly, I can’t think in a manner that’s free from everything I’ve learned- cultural forces that are far beyond my powers of recognising. I think according to equal temperament in music, the Anglo-Saxon numeral system – I think in words and pictures, not in mathematical formulae or vibrations of energy. I am me, but I am not distinct from my makeup. I am what God made me, therefore I am bound by His design specs.

Sometimes this is more obvious than others. When I’m PMS-hormonal I can wish I wasn’t being influenced by my hormones. But at any time of the month, being human, I’m always being influenced by hormones! (So are men, of course!) If I were uninfluenced by my body – what I ate, my nutrient stores, my blood sugar – I wouldn’t be a human. We’re tied to our physiology as a concrete and occasionally humiliating reminder that we are not free.

I hope that makes sense. Basically it boils down to: If God made you a certain way, you are not free to act in defiance of that way. And the finer the mesh of what you believe God made, the less room there is for freedom. I believe God made everything and determines everything, and therefore that man is not free in a libertarian-free-will sense. Like the pottery analogies in Scripture – the potter shapes the clay as He wants, and the clay can’t choose to be a different shape, or a different element.

[Smokering]

I think he knows what the end outcome will be. I think he knows what will happen either way.

But knowing "what will happen if" isn't really knowing. I mean, I know that either DH or myself will win in a game of tic-tac-toe - it has to be one or the other. But if I claim to know the future and someone challenges me on it, saying "Well, either he'll win or I will" won't really impress them. It's not knowledge, it's just counting the possibilities. And under a traditional Arminian view of foreknowledge, God's knowledge is definite. (Although you might not hold to traditional Arminianism, for all I know...) The alternative seems to me like it has God knowing nothing useful about the future, which makes the prophecies of the Old Testament rather presumptuous. They'd have to read "For a virgin will conceive, if millions of the people make choices which cause this hypothetical reality to instantiate above the others..." Less catchy. But the choices of all those people did influence the end result. If Mary's mother hadn't married Mary's father...

You know, it occurs to me that this whole thing might be easier to explain if you're familiar with the plot of Enterprise. Are you?

[genifer]

fascinating discussion... subbing

They'd have to read "For a virgin will conceive, if millions of the people make choices which cause this hypothetical reality to instantiate above the others..." Less catchy.

lol

[genifer]

One question... What does the bible say about 'freewill'? I have never seen the term in the bible at all! The concept maybe... but what do ya'll think? What does the bible actually teach about the doctrine of free will?

[genifer]

Smokering... What the hell are you talking about???









































The Kiera Knightly version was WAY better then the longwinded BBC version of Pride and Prejudice.




All joking aside... I do actually see what you are saying, but I still disagree, in that we DO have free will... With all our limitations we still have a choice to seek our Creator or not... In fact some may say that some of our limitations can be a springboard to atleast ask 'Why?' and then if I ask 'why?' I might begin to wonder 'Is there a God?'... which could lead to 'God? are you there?'

Thats the freewill I believe the bible is talking about. The freedom to choose to seek God or not. Then it becomes the freedom to continue to seek God once Ive 'found' Him. I believe its possible that we were placed in a certain place or time or with other limitations quite possibly in God's will but what we choose to do with our limitations is ours to decide...

[genifer]

Ok, I just gave someone some advice on how to handle a personal situation that describes the free will I think the bible talks about... Its all about what we think and what we believe...

Ill not use my friend as an example, Ill use a hypothetical situation that I have had some experience in...

Now, lets say there's this wife, her husband is a drug addict, he's cheated on her, he's unaffectionate, unkind most of the time, a raging alcoholic.... and she's sorely tempted to hate him... atleast, I mean, she's sorely to do some other stuff to him, like throw his head into a brick wall (which she may or may not succumed to, this is all hypothetical, of coarse )... He's cruel to the children, to her, spends all their money on alcohol and dope, he's violent towards her in word and deed ...

Now whether she chooses to stay or leave isnt the 'freewill' choice Im talking about, but how she 'feels' about him is. She can choose to love him anyway, but its damn hard. With everything natural about her she really hates him. She cant see any redeeming attributes in this man... for a long time. However, she knows what God says about forgiveness... about loving her enemies... That it is right and good and God's will to forgive those who abuse her, to love those who are her enemies, how much more should she love her husband??

So, lets just say she doesnt understand God when His word (and that small wisper) tells her to love this man, but she knows God is good, that He can make good with any situation one faces. Now, she hasnt seen any proof of this in her own life, she just knows God, His word and His promises therein. She has never experienced the kind of thing God is asking of her... She chooses to trust God. She takes a leap of faith... She doesnt feel love for this man. She hasnt seen God do any kind of miracle to 'prove' He's going to be at work in his heart... she has heard God wisper to her that He knows what He's going to do with the situation, that He promises to be at work in her dh's heart. Ok, she's also seen some orchestrating of events that convinces her that God is at work in the situation, but little more then that. Its still her choice to let go of those feelings and let Him be at work in her heart to create a love that is out of this world, that is of God. She still sees nothing worth saving this marriage for... but here's the freewill part... She chooses to continue to trust God, she chooses to love her husband anyway. She chooses to give her natural feelings over to God in exchange for whatever God has to offer in exchange, whatever it is of Him he will fill her up with.

And she does this over and over... over the years, while she sees small changes in her dh, but nothing too dramatic. She's still choosing to believe and trust God, all the while, God is at work in her, revealing things thru the limitations of the situation, but it was her freewill to submit to God that God could (or chose to) reveal Himself to her .... and to her dh, in a way. It was her freewill to love her husband despite his weaknesses with a love that only God could provide.


It is the freewill to surrender to God's way or not... that is the only freewill we have.


Now, thats a true story. The woman Im talking about, while things arent perfect (yet) she has a love for her husband she could have never known possible if she hadnt freely allowed God to be at work in her heart. And her husband is changed too, but that was his choice also. Of coarse God knew what was going to happen, but that didnt negate her freewill to choose to let Him have His way with her life and her heart.

Its a paradox. In a way its free, but at the same time, its not. Its like having the freedom to choose to be free in Christ, or to be free to be held in bondage! Bondage to hate, envy, strife, substances, or a life without knowing God thru Christ and everything that has to 'offer'.

So, again, in a way, I guess you could say we have a sort of freedom...

Oh yeah... and where in the bible does it say God is rational? Or that he does things in a way that we would assume should be rational... I see the opposite actually. I believe it says that God confounds the wisdom of the wise.

[Shami]

Wow...I went to sleep and missed all of this! Pondering it all with no time to write. I do wish Bluebirdie would come back and tell us if this was her intention for the thread because I don't want her to get deeper into the forest so to speak.

Do you all believe that Christ lives in you and that through transformation we are becoming like Him (being transformed into the same image from glory to glory)? In Romans it says we are being conformed to Him. But I think this transformation and conformation process requires our cooperation with Him to deny our natural self (disposition) and submit to Him. Jen's example of the wife denying her natural feelings, which anyone would feel in that situation, and be under the headship of Christ excepting His divine arrangement for her marriage.

It seems like this debate is coming from two completely opposite sides. It seems like every scenario we could come up with could have two sides, or am I imagining that?
I could see Gen's side, which is what I believe, using her illustration, but then Smokering's side could come at it and say God' being the potter made her choose to deny her natural life and stay in her marriage.

Gotta go! Back later.

[genifer]

I do believe...

that Christ lives in y[me] and that through transformation [I am] becoming like Him (being transformed into the same image from glory to glory)

but man alive he's got His work cut out with me!

I dont believe God is the author of our lives in that its already written out as a novel, in that he forced his will on me/humanity, that HE decided what I would do and when I would do it, in the same way Jane Austen wrote Pride and Prejudice, I understand it to be not even remotely the same kind of thing. I believe that being outside time he can look at time as if its an object, for example. My dh explained it well that way. That God can see beginning to end... He can plan for individuals to be placed in a certain place on that timeline, and that he can and does orchestrate events. I believe we are either willing or unwilling participants in His will for humanity. I mean, for example, I suspect He knew Mary's nature and disposition, that she might be able to accept the understanding He had given her for what His will for her life was, she became a willing participant. I believe that God is showing us off as much as He is showing off Himself, His glory, His wisdom and everything about Himself with us, His creation. He is showing us off to. He created us to share in 'this' His creation and glory...

I think of Job... God knew Job wouldnt deny Him, that He was a man of integrity... He was showing off that man and what he was made of.

[Grace and Granola]

Originally Posted by lilmom

I agree with you bluebird..
I think we have free will. I think God knows what we will do, but that doesn't mean that HE ultimately planned out what we were going to do before we did it. Just that he knows.

Kind of like, as a mother, when you know your child and his personality and temperament, and you put two toys out within his reach. You know which one he will choose, but you didn't make that decision for him. He still chose whichever one he chose.

*but* it is a little different than that, because being human, we can't always know 100% of the time what our child will choose. But God does know. It doesn't mean he picked for us. It means he knows us so well, he knows what we will do. Remember he knows the number of hairs on our head. He knows our thoughts. He knows everything about us.

However, that doesn't mean we don't have choice.

All that being said..something I have struggled with in my life is, did I make the RIGHT choice about this or that. But my faith tells me that I made the choice that ultimately gets me to a better place. Even though at times it sure doesn't feel like it. That doesn't mean we don't have to fight those feelings of regret. It's human nature.

The bolded are my thoughts exactly. an all-knowing God is not a puppetmaster. He knows you will choose the doughnut, He does not FORCE you to choose the doughnut.

[Purple Sage]

Originally Posted by Grace and Granola

The bolded are my thoughts exactly. an all-knowing God is not a puppetmaster. He knows you will choose the doughnut, He does not FORCE you to choose the doughnut.

This is what I was thinking, too. I don't see how God knowing what will happen is the same as God making something happen by his foreknowledge.