HELP! 3 year old waking up 5 times a night, baby on the way

[Shannie77]

My daughter has co-slept with us since she was born. She will be 3 in a few weeks -she is still nursing. For the first 2 years I was really happy with that arrangement. A few months after she turned 2 she started waking up at night and screaming. We thought it was night terrors, teething etc.. It was horrible for about 6 months and once all her teeth came through she stopped waking up violently.

We had about a month of her waking up fairly frequently but at least she was just getting up to nurse. At that point I decided to move her to her toddler bed, after she requested she sleep there. From the night on (2.5 weeks ago) the routine is she stays in there until the sun comes up, then she can come and sleep with us until we get up. I am also trying to gently nightwean her. Clearly co-sleeping has not worked for us. It does not help me or DD sleep better. I did it for 3 years and I don't think I have ever slept more then 5 hours at a time. If DD was peacefully sleeping with me, or just waking up once or twice, I would be happy to keep her in with me.

She is currently waking up between 4-6 times/ night. Usually the first two times I can just go in and pat her bum a couple times and she goes back to sleep, but the last 3-4 times she wakes up crying, and wanting to nurse, and has trouble falling back asleep. She says she doesn't know how to sleep. She goes to daycare once a week and naps at my mom's once a week with no issues falling asleep without me or nursing.

I am 7 weeks until my due date and I am freaking out!! I am so exhausted I can barely think straight. I can't imagine what will happen if DD is still like this AND I am dealing with a new baby.

I would love to nightwean DD but the few times I have not given in have been so horrible. DD is very strong willed and . She absolutely loses it if she wants to nurse and I don't let her. Honestly after 3 years of no sleep I have don't know how to manage her screaming at night for however long it takes. The times I have let her cry (with me trying to comfort her), I end up bawling and feeling like the world is coming to an end.

Does anyone have any BTDT advice or any thoughts? I am desperate. I have tried to remove her nap and while she falls asleep faster she wakes up just as much.

[Thalia the Muse]

She's three and developmentally normal so pretty verbally fluent, right? Could you have a talk with her during the day and say "Mommy needs rest and so do you (she must be exhausted, if she's waking to eat that much). So we are not going to nurse any more after bedtime, starting tonight. Night is time for everyone to be in their own bed, asleep. You can have a sippy cup of water to take to bed and if you wake up thirsty at night, you can drink that quietly and then go back to sleep."

Maybe you could take her to a toy store and let her pick out a new special night-time lovey, a stuffed animal she can cuddle if she feels like she needs help going back to sleep. At this age, she really does need to learn how to go to sleep on her own -- she's not a tiny baby, she knows you haven't disappeared from the face of the earth if you don't come in. Give her a big bedtime snack, since she is used to doing a lot of her eating in the middle of the night and will need something to replace that.

If she cries in the night, I'd just go in the first couple of nights and say "Sweetie, we don't nurse at night anymore. Good night! See you when the sun comes up!" and then go back to bed. No patting, no sitting until she falls back asleep. She needs to find out that she is capable of going to sleep all by herself -- it sounds like she really doesn't know that, and it's probably kind of scary to feel so dependent on someone else for a basic need like sleep.

[Shannie77]

Thanks Thalia for replying. DD is extremely verbal and I would say her comprehension is quite advanced... which is why I feel so frustrated. We have talked about how I need to sleep and she can do it on her own like at her grandmothers or at daycare. During the day she agrees and says she won't nurse at night and seems quite excited about sleeping like a big girl. Then night comes and it is another story. At the moment she is sleeping with 2 books... weird I know, but they seem to comfort her at least a bit.

I guess I just have to bite the bullet and listen to her scream all night.

[Thalia the Muse]

Hmmm ... when we night-weaned her daddy went in and gave her a cup of water -- maybe your husband could go in instead of you? And you could wear earplugs and use some kind of fan or white noise in your bedroom for a few nights until she adjusts?

I don't think sleeping with books is weird -- they comfort me too! Hey, whatever works.

[ssh]

Originally Posted by Shannie77

Thanks Thalia for replying. DD is extremely verbal and I would say her comprehension is quite advanced... which is why I feel so frustrated. We have talked about how I need to sleep and she can do it on her own like at her grandmothers or at daycare. During the day she agrees and says she won't nurse at night and seems quite excited about sleeping like a big girl. Then night comes and it is another story. At the moment she is sleeping with 2 books... weird I know, but they seem to comfort her at least a bit.

I guess I just have to bite the bullet and listen to her scream all night.

Letting your DD scream all night is still CIO and still floods her little body with damaging stress hormones and can give her sleep issues. Have you tried moving her bed next to yours in your bedroom so she can reach out and touch you during the night? We had a queen right next to a twin bed. Our DD needed to touch someone to sleep (usually her feet on my leg) at your DD's age. I disagree with the idea that the youngest person in the house is the one who needs to learn how to sleep on her own. That's the same kind of thing people tell us when they think we should buy cribs.

I don't have any advice on night weaning. We let my DD wean herself. It happened a couple of months before turning 4. The frequent waking and wanting to nurse could be worse because it's forbidden. The fear of not being able to have a need met can make the need feel stronger. Satisfying a need is the way to make a need go away. We still had some night waking at just turned 3 but by three and half DD was sleeping 7 to 9 hours at a time and by 4 she sleeps 10. She also decided to sleep in her own bed and bedroom right after turning 4. Secure kids do decide they want their own space, because they know their parents are available. I think the stress free bedtime and sleeping arrangement is why my DD sleeps so well now. She's never associated any anxiety with sleep. With all the changes of a new baby, it's even more important your DD feels you are available for her.

[Therese's Mommy]

Originally Posted by ssh

Letting your DD scream all night is still CIO and still floods her little body with damaging stress hormones and can give her sleep issues. Have you tried moving her bed next to yours in your bedroom so she can reach out and touch you during the night? We had a queen right next to a twin bed. Our DD needed to touch someone to sleep (usually her feet on my leg) at your DD's age. I disagree with the idea that the youngest person in the house is the one who needs to learn how to sleep on her own. That's the same kind of thing people tell us when they think we should buy cribs.

I don't have any advice on night weaning. We let my DD wean herself. It happened a couple of months before turning 4. The frequent waking and wanting to nurse could be worse because it's forbidden. The fear of not being able to have a need met can make the need feel stronger. Satisfying a need is the way to make a need go away. We still had some night waking at just turned 3 but by three and half DD was sleeping 7 to 9 hours at a time and by 4 she sleeps 10. She also decided to sleep in her own bed and bedroom right after turning 4. Secure kids do decide they want their own space, because they know their parents are available. I think the stress free bedtime and sleeping arrangement is why my DD sleeps so well now. She's never associated any anxiety with sleep. With all the changes of a new baby, it's even more important your DD feels you are available for her.

[Thalia the Muse]

She's three, not a tiny infant -- I don't think that she has an actual need for an adult to sit up with her four to six times a night, every night, patting and nursing her back to sleep. Having her daddy check in and say "Good night, time to sleep sweetie" and then leave the room again is not the same as abandoning her to scream alone in the forest or something.

The PP is pregnant, and I suspect that getting woken repeatedly every night and dragged from her bed to put her daughter back to sleep is not good for HER stress hormone level!

[reezley]

I agree that getting DH involved could really help. DH took over ds1's nighttime stuff (bedtime routine and cosleeping) when ds2 was born. No reason not to start that earlier if pregnant and tired you needs that. I do think that screaming and crying all night is not good - but I'll bet that with a little firmness from you, perhaps being there but saying you don't nurse at night anymore, it won't be a whole night of screaming. One thing that helped me with my waking/complaining/tired middle-of-the-night 2-3 year old was - being there but saying LESS. Not trying to comfort, not keep talking. Say what you have to say, even say "I'll say this one more time but after that I won't say anything and I'll let you sleep" and then be silent. At least for me, that ended the "episode" much sooner than continually trying to talk him down.

[To-Fu]

Hi, DDC buddy!

My son is only 26.5mo, but we are switching to a new routine wherein Dad does bedtimme with him. I still handle the wakings (which are admittedly pleasant-sounding compared to what you're dealing with), but I think with the baby coming soon it makes sense to switch it up. Can you get some relief from your partner, perhaps? And does your daughter have any known food allergies? A dear friend of mine with a daughter a little younger than yours had horrible sleep problems until her allergies were identified. Now she sleeps well. Could be something to look into.

[fruitfulmomma]

My oldest was a night nurser until he weaned and by that time I had been tandem nursing for the last two years and was pregnant with #3 and just could not do it anymore. With the last ones I have night weaned before the next one came along because it is just too tiring. I agree with some of the pp's about getting dad involved in the nighttime routine and also using the sippy cup if she is thirsty. It may take a little while for her to get used to it but she will. You are not doing her or anyone else any good if you are all cranky and tired all day long and can't cope.

ETA: I was going to mention allergies as well. It may just be her personality to do this but if she does have something physical that is contributing to it, it will be well worth the time to look into that.

[NiteNicole]

My daughter was still a really poor sleeper till about that age. Cosleeping did not help, not cosleeping didn't help. Nothing helped.

Get yourself a copy of Sleepless in America as soon as you can. FOR ME, following the advice about setting up her whole DAY to get a good night's sleep made all the difference. I didn't have to figure out how to deal with night time waking because she stopped waking at night. She was tired enough to resettle herself (you know, wake up a little, roll over, still mostly asleep and go back to sleep) but not so overtired that she was a mess. It made a huge difference in just about a week or so.

I didn't even have to read the whole book before I got started. It's very well organized and by that time, I knew everything in the world about sleep and sleep cycles and blah blah blah, I skipped straight to the advice - get up at the same time every day, plenty of play time at the right time, plenty of the right kinds of food, foods they shouldn't have too close to bedtime, etc. It made a HUGE HUGE HUGE difference for us.

[apmama07]

First of all, I have so much empathy for you. Sounds like our DDs were separated at birth lol. I completely understand what it's like to attend to a *very* strong-willed and nursing-attached child when you're exhausted and waking many times a night. We're just in the thick of attempting nightweaning too. I am only 5 weeks pg but my supply has already disappeared (!) and she and I were both getting so frustrated and tired-nasty that it seems it's time. Ideally I think she'd get to choose her timing, but pregnancy really does change things like this for most of us.

We've just started the process and are still having a hard time ourselves, but I'll share what we've used/learned so far. I agree with pp's about getting dad involved, but if your DD is like mine then she won't let him near her when she is that worked up about wanting to nurse. Still, it helps me stay calm at least to have him near. Also having water and a snack (we use whole-grain crackers she likes) bedside in case she's hungry/thirsty (so far that doesn't cut it either, but I feel better having it to offer, kwim?)

I definitely agree with this, as we just realized it ourselves:

Originally Posted by reezley

One thing that helped me with my waking/complaining/tired middle-of-the-night 2-3 year old was - being there but saying LESS. Not trying to comfort, not keep talking. Say what you have to say, even say "I'll say this one more time but after that I won't say anything and I'll let you sleep" and then be silent. At least for me, that ended the "episode" much sooner than continually trying to talk him down.

I've had the same kind of talks with her during the day and at bed time and just like yours, she really gets it and seems enthusiastic about the whole thing, but in the middle of the night when she's half asleep it's a different story. BUT I would still keep up the talks, every day, keep encouraging her to share her feelings about it.

For us, I've realized that the whole thing makes her very insecure and worried. Like yours, she can and does fall asleep without nursing, but nursing is still the preferred crutch for middle of the night. That's a deeply entrenched habit and it's no small thing to learn a new one. We're asking them to undo a pattern in a matter of days or weeks that they've formed over years!

For that reason, I strongly disagree with the pp who suggested leaving her to cry, even with checking in. Some kids do just fine with that at 3 or even earlier. Others like mine (and it sounds like yours) are temperamentally not able to cope with such a situation. Just because she's a certain chronological age doesn't mean she's magically able to be alone at night. Actually, I think leaving her alone and stressed would make the whole thing worse in the long run. (There's a great book called "Raising Your Spirited Child" by the same author as "Sleepless in America" previously recommended).

I think that she really needs to know that you're still there for her and will still help her at night even though your breasts are unavailable. At least, that's been my feeling from what DD continues to tell me and show me. She will probably need reassurance for a good while. So can you make it easier for yourself to be there for her but not be so exhausted? Like PP said, move her toddler bed into your room? Or put a mattress on the floor for yourself in her room?

Sorry for the novella here. Hope any of this helps, hang in there!

[LindsC]

You have been given some great advice. We were having some trouble with DS sleeping for awhile and he would wake up screaming in the night, but he wouldn't tell us what was wrong. He would just scream and cry until we guessed what he was needing and he would settle back down.

I really like the suggestion of moving her toddler bed into your room and seeing if that helps out. That way she will know that you are there, but you still each have your space. I remember reading someone posting something similiar to this where they kept moving their child's "bed" further and further from the parents bed at spaced intervals until the child was in their own room.

I hope that things get easier for you in the coming weeks and that you make a smooth transition into a family of four.

[Smithie]

It's time to call in your DH and turn the situation over to him.

He might decide on a sip of water and a reaffirmation of the daytime chat about mommy needing to sleep at night so that she and the new baby can be healthy. He might decide to turn on the light and read a story. He might decide to go downstairs and make a cup of cocoa. He might decide to sleep next to her bed for a few nights. He might decide to reassure once verbally and then remain present until she winds down. He might decide to check in on her every few minutes until she winds down. He is not you, and something that has not worked for you might work very well for him.

What YOU have to decide is that your new baby needs you to not be a tortured wreck as you continue to nourish him/her and prepare for the birth. You daughter can speak and she can understand speech, she is bonded to two parents, and she can be nurtured by food that doesn't come from your body. It's time to let your DH take some of the weight off your shoulders so that BOTH your babies get the care and attention they need, 24/7.

[Enudely]

hugs...I hear you totally, my dd is almost four and while she doesn't nurse any more, she NEEDS to be cuddling me, with her head on my shoulder, to fall asleep. I also have a 14 month old who is waking up a lot at night too, and my work load is picking up, my sleep deprivation is thick and torturous.
Our new, desperate, plan, is to have me get up with her and go back to her bed to cuddle back to sleep. dh will try to comfort the baby if possible when he wakes. I'll either sleep in her bed, or come back to my bed, but the main point will be that she stays in her bed.
She, like the op, is VERY strong willed and will throw a flying fit like you wouldn't believe in the night if dh tries to go to her or either of us tries to make her lie back down alone in her bed.
This summer, when dh has his summer break, we plan to pick a week and work very hard on getting dd to learn to go to sleep at bedtime without snuggling and work on night weaning the baby to see if he'll sleep better.
hope that helps. We'll get through it somehow!

[JessBB]

Originally Posted by Smithie

It's time to call in your DH and turn the situation over to him.

He might decide on a sip of water and a reaffirmation of the daytime chat about mommy needing to sleep at night so that she and the new baby can be healthy. He might decide to turn on the light and read a story. He might decide to go downstairs and make a cup of cocoa. He might decide to sleep next to her bed for a few nights. He might decide to reassure once verbally and then remain present until she winds down. He might decide to check in on her every few minutes until she winds down. He is not you, and something that has not worked for you might work very well for him.

What YOU have to decide is that your new baby needs you to not be a tortured wreck as you continue to nourish him/her and prepare for the birth. You daughter can speak and she can understand speech, she is bonded to two parents, and she can be nurtured by food that doesn't come from your body. It's time to let your DH take some of the weight off your shoulders so that BOTH your babies get the care and attention they need, 24/7.