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Does this happen at your library? Would you be okay with it? - Page 4

post #61 of 94
I think I'm responsible for monitoring what my kid watches, not the library. If I were uncomfortable with Marilyn Manson (and I'm sure I would be), we'd move.

I'm very much anti-censorship.
post #62 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by betsyj View Post
I do not want my library to make "think of the children" censorship decisions-I hate the very thought of it. The library should be a place of unfettered access to information.
So....you would be totally ok with someone watching hard core porn on the internet in a public place where anyone who walks by can see what said person is watching......? ( and I am NOT talking here about music videos....I am talking about "unfettered access". What does that really mean anyway and in what context and how far does it go?)

I am all for do what you want to do, when you want to do it, but I also believe that there is a time and a place for everything. As much as some people here hate the idea of "common decency" there are just somethings that really do fall into this category.

Yeah I know I can leave the area but at the same time is it right that someone who is being inappropriate with what they are viewing should really take it somewhere else. I mean we all have to share the same space, what's a little consideration where children are concerned?
post #63 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by WingonWing View Post
Filters must be on ALL the computers according to CIPA

I'm a librarian, too. This statement is completely false. If your library restricts public access to information by taking federal funding that requires filters, so be it.

But my library makes a point of funding its own internet access so we can do what public libraries are supposed to do--provide unrestricted access to everyone regardless of age. Please see the Library Bill of Rights and the Freedom to Read and Freedom to View statements for more information. That's what guides public libraries.

OP, if you're willing to pay for privacy screens, great! If not, you'll have to make the same decision that a patron of ours who saw a Jane's Addiction album cover in the Teen room had to make last week--get your free* information and free* programming elsewhere.

*and by that I mean already-paid-for-by-taxes.
A wonderful point. It does depend on how you get your internet (funding, grants etc). Many libraries (within the ALA) are against censorship, including filters because of the problems it can cause. Because libraries have the need to provide access to ALL types of information. Not just the butterflies and bunnies, but the STD's, sex and death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EFmom View Post
I think I'm responsible for monitoring what my kid watches, not the library. If I were uncomfortable with Marilyn Manson (and I'm sure I would be), we'd move.

I'm very much anti-censorship.
You make a wonderful point, ERmom. Some of the librarians I know (and myself) have the view that "we are not the parents" & "it is not our job to parent the children". It not only applies to censorship, but also to leaving children unattended in the libraries, and many other things relating to parenting. It's the librarian's job to provide access to most if not all types of information. I say that because even watching music video's can be part of homework. We have no way of knowing. (I'm also anti-censorship. In our teen summer reading program last year, one of our discussions was about censorship and the local high school teachers are still talking about it!)
post #64 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by momo7 View Post
So....you would be totally ok with someone watching hard core porn on the internet in a public place where anyone who walks by can see what said person is watching......? ( and I am NOT talking here about music videos....I am talking about "unfettered access". What does that really mean anyway and in what context and how far does it go?)

I am all for do what you want to do, when you want to do it, but I also believe that there is a time and a place for everything. As much as some people here hate the idea of "common decency" there are just somethings that really do fall into this category.

Yeah I know I can leave the area but at the same time is it right that someone who is being inappropriate with what they are viewing should really take it somewhere else. I mean we all have to share the same space, what's a little consideration where children are concerned?

Um, people do look at porn at the public library. Everyday. If they are doing it in the kids section than it makes them super creepy, but it's still their right to do so.

I so completely disagree with the "common decency" argument. Because like a previous poster, these moral lines drawn in the sand never reflect my personal priorities. It assumes that most people must think/believe what you do. Not to say this is the case with you momo7, but most folks I know who believe in "common decency" are very religious, and rather intolerant.

Isn't it interesting how most "inappropriate for children" arguments revolve around sex? Why is that? I find violence more reprehensible, personally.
post #65 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chamomile Girl View Post
Isn't it interesting how most "inappropriate for children" arguments revolve around sex? Why is that? I find violence more reprehensible, personally.
So do I. Sex is natural. Naked bodies are natural. Violence, however, is something that is unnatural (to me)...

I don't think I worded that the best, but I hope my thoughts come across clear.
post #66 of 94
I imagine it is actually a filter problem. Most library computes have no or few filters. The computers set up in the children's area are probably to protect the kids from the adult's filth. The filters are set highest there.

Usually, the computers in the children's area do not allow surfing at all. That would be my point of inquiry. The librarian's have their hands tied in so many ways and they take so much abuse from (filth-seeking) adults.
post #67 of 94
Our library is set up so the children's section is completely separated by a little indoor playground. The teen area is the opposite end of the library, and it is separated by the study rooms. The computers are in the middle and are used by anybody who wants to use them. I would be pretty annoyed at having the children's section next to the computers anyway.
post #68 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chamomile Girl View Post
Um, people do look at porn at the public library. Everyday. If they are doing it in the kids section than it makes them super creepy, but it's still their right to do so.

I so completely disagree with the "common decency" argument. Because like a previous poster, these moral lines drawn in the sand never reflect my personal priorities. It assumes that most people must think/believe what you do. Not to say this is the case with you momo7, but most folks I know who believe in "common decency" are very religious, and rather intolerant.

Isn't it interesting how most "inappropriate for children" arguments revolve around sex? Why is that? I find violence more reprehensible, personally.
So whatever happened to using good judgement? I am thinking that has a lot to do with "common decency". Maybe the phrase "good judgement" could be substituted for "common decency"? Don't you think there is a place and a time for everything? There are things that should be done in private that we don't share with the whole world because it's just not "good judgement" to let it all just "flop" right out there for everybody to see? (and NO I am not talking about breast feeding in public either )

I really do disagree with you I don't think it is their right. They are in a place where children can see it....it's the same reason why little children are not allowed to buy pornographic magazines in a book store...because it is so..."inappropriate" (perhaps another phrase substitution).

I have a HUGE problem with sex AND violence when it comes to children. This is such a rotten world sometimes and little children seem to be loosing their innocence at earlier and earlier ages. (NO I am not a religious right winger either). I don't think there is anything wrong with protecting a child's innocence over somebody's "right" to watch sexually explicit acts or even truly violent images I don't think there is anything wrong with that at all. I am totally NOT talking about censorship BTW, I am talking about things that the general population doesn't expect to see when they go out in a public place...such as the two examples I mentioned above.

When I speak about "common decency" I am not speaking of the religious "moral" right ...I'm speaking about things we generally don't do in public.... like urinate in front of people or masturbate or even watch pornography in plain sight....I mean that would be a lack of "common decency" not to mention "lack of good manners" (yet another phrase substitution instead of "common decency"). When people are in public I guess they can choose to act however they like.....but it seems to me people would use "common sense" and act with behavior that actually is conducive to public activities when they were in plain sight and around children.....I mean that would be "common decency" right? Aren't there things you just don't do or say in front of children that would be considered inconsistent with "common decency" because it's just too risque?

Maybe the phrase "common sense" should be substituted instead of "common decency" if some people find it too offensive to say it like that.

BTW: I'm so NOT trying to be snotty, snide or sarcastic here....I really am trying to keep it real.
post #69 of 94
When talking about what someone can access from a public place, you are talking about censorship. That is what censorship is, deciding for someone else what is appropriate and not appropriate. I would never look at porn on a public computer, but that is my choice to make. Just like it's another persons choice to choose the opposite.

That is why there is such disagreement about what should be allowed on library computers, my understanding is that in the US there is a law saying there needs to be filters in place, but there are precedent cases that say it is a violation of the first amendment, and why libraries can get around the filter law by not using public funding to fund their internet access.
post #70 of 94
Quote:
When people are in public I guess they can choose to act however they like.....but it seems to me people would use "common sense" and act with behavior that actually is conducive to public activities when they were in plain sight and around children.
And if you think about it, most people do try to behave themselves. Of course there is always the small percentage of people who don't. And, we remember them in greater proportion to their actual numbers.

To make a broad censorship law based on the viewing habits of a few teenagers or porn watchers goes against everything I believe libraries should be about.

Quote:
Yeah I know I can leave the area but at the same time is it right that someone who is being inappropriate with what they are viewing should really take it somewhere else. I mean we all have to share the same space, what's a little consideration where children are concerned?
Because people make this argument about breastfeeding and birth vidoes and sex education and homosexual marriage. You simply can not pick and choose what you consider obscene without ensuring that a lot of good info gets lost in the process.

So I will always choose for there to be a chance my son might see some sex or violence that we can talk about, rather then allow anyone to base censorship decisions on what is best for the children.
post #71 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by momo7 View Post
When I speak about "common decency" I am not speaking of the religious "moral" right ...I'm speaking about things we generally don't do in public.... like urinate in front of people or masturbate or even watch pornography in plain sight....I mean that would be a lack of "common decency" not to mention "lack of good manners" (yet another phrase substitution instead of "common decency"). When people are in public I guess they can choose to act however they like.....but it seems to me people would use "common sense" and act with behavior that actually is conducive to public activities when they were in plain sight and around children.....I mean that would be "common decency" right? Aren't there things you just don't do or say in front of children that would be considered inconsistent with "common decency" because it's just too risque?
Here's the thing: Of course there are things I don't and wouldn't do in front of children, or in public. Most of these things are things I wouldn't do anywhere, even if I were alone. And when I see people doing them in public, it bugs me. It really does...but I recognize that everyone has their own standard of behavior. Just because I think it is sad and icky that some people kill and eat animals, and I don't want to have to see anyone do it, does not mean that I can't recognize that others have a right to do it, and to do it in public. No, I don't want my kid to see it, but your right to do it is more important than my desire to protect her from seeing it.

There is no "common decency." We all make up our own minds about what we like and what we don't like, what we want to see and experience and what we don't. We don't agree on it--and if we did, then of course we'd never be having this discussion because nobody would ever act outside of the bounds of what we agreed upon. Personally, I think it makes sense to err on the side of letting people use their own judgment rather than on the side of controlling others' access to information.
post #72 of 94
In our library, the internet computers are separate from the kids area. The computers in the kids area only have kids games on them. I would not be ok with people accessing stuff like that in the kids area where my child could see, and I'm the type of parent who is lenient with what I allow my child to see. I still like to somewhat sensor material though, and sexual stuff (even if it's not as obvious as p*rn) is often where I draw the line.

I believe people have the right to do what they want in public, within reason, but I would think poorly of a library staff who didn't take into consideration how their computer set-up affected young children.
post #73 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by bandgeek View Post
In our library, the internet computers are separate from the kids area. The computers in the kids area only have kids games on them. I would not be ok with people accessing stuff like that in the kids area where my child could see, and I'm the type of parent who is lenient with what I allow my child to see. I still like to somewhat sensor material though, and sexual stuff (even if it's not as obvious as p*rn) is often where I draw the line.

I believe people have the right to do what they want in public, within reason, but I would think poorly of a library staff who didn't take into consideration how their computer set-up affected young children.
Who's reason do we use? Sexual stuff is not high on my list of things to protect my children from. Violence is much, much higher but most parents don't seem to have problem with it in public places, or even with allowing their children to be violent. Gender stereotypes is even higher, but you see that in everything, with it most blatantly directed at young children. I don't want to see my kids looking at toy advertisements that separate the products into "Toys for Girls" and "Toys for Boys" but we actually got a flyer in the mail that did just that.

There are things I want my children exposed to are continually censored. Just a few years ago the school district decided that books that involve same-sex parents were "inappropriate" for young children. Um, excuse me? There are those young children and they have every right to be equally represented in her class room.
post #74 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by momo7 View Post
So whatever happened to using good judgement? I am thinking that has a lot to do with "common decency". Maybe the phrase "good judgement" could be substituted for "common decency"? Don't you think there is a place and a time for everything? There are things that should be done in private that we don't share with the whole world because it's just not "good judgement" to let it all just "flop" right out there for everybody to see? (and NO I am not talking about breast feeding in public either )

I really do disagree with you I don't think it is their right. They are in a place where children can see it....it's the same reason why little children are not allowed to buy pornographic magazines in a book store...because it is so..."inappropriate" (perhaps another phrase substitution).
Who's good judgment will we be using? It doesn't sound like I agree with yours at all. A music video with people dancing in tight clothes isn't pornography. It is people dancing to music in clothes that many people, including me, would wear while they are out and about. I don't want to be ruled by other people's judgment, decency, morals, etc... If someone isn't breaking a law then they should be left to do what they are doing. If I have a problem with my dd seeing something then I will shield her from it or discuss both sides of the issue with her so she can see their point and mine. I don't think that imposing your judgment on my family and limiting what we can do is the way I want our society to go, even if you aren't a right wing conservative. Also, the examples you give of what we don't do are things people don't do because they are illegal in most cities and states.
post #75 of 94
Yeah, all our library computers are outside the children's area. You can not even see them really from there, but if you look really hard you can the backs. There are a row of "children's" computers set away from the regular computers that are restricted to children appropriate content. These are set up between the regular computers and the children's area. But all our computers are facing one direction and from the children's computers you can only see the backs of the other computers. So, our children are quite "safe" from unwanted sites in the children's area.

I really like our library.
post #76 of 94
i can imagine parents in the 50s scandalized because their kids catched a glimpse of Elvis performing...you know....how he moves the hips!!the horror!!
post #77 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by momo7 View Post

Yeah I know I can leave the area but at the same time is it right that someone who is being inappropriate with what they are viewing should really take it somewhere else. I mean we all have to share the same space, what's a little consideration where children are concerned?
The world is not G-rated. Nor should it be. I've got small kids. Not everyone does, and I don't expect everyone else to live their lives around my kids.

So yes, I think that in a public library, if you want to find something offensive, you can move somewhere else.

I'm a librarian (academic, not public). We get people in who are offended at what other people are looking at with some frequency. When they complain to me, I let them know where else in the library we have computers so that they can move. I do not approach the "offensive" patron, because it's not my job to censor what people do in the library.
post #78 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by One_Girl View Post
Who's good judgment will we be using? It doesn't sound like I agree with yours at all. A music video with people dancing in tight clothes isn't pornography. It is people dancing to music in clothes that many people, including me, would wear while they are out and about. I don't want to be ruled by other people's judgment, decency, morals, etc... If someone isn't breaking a law then they should be left to do what they are doing. If I have a problem with my dd seeing something then I will shield her from it or discuss both sides of the issue with her so she can see their point and mine. I don't think that imposing your judgment on my family and limiting what we can do is the way I want our society to go, even if you aren't a right wing conservative. Also, the examples you give of what we don't do are things people don't do because they are illegal in most cities and states.

You are missing my point entirely. I asked a question. I asked about good judgement in general and gave some examples. My question wasn't about what "I" consider good judgement. I was talking about it's general use. Another example would be like when you go into a convenience store and you see a magazine rack, and the ummm the "questionable" magazines are usually covered up to the titles. You know...'cause it's probably "good judgement" to cover them up so children can't see them.

BTW.....in some places it IS illegal not to use "good judgement".
post #79 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by momo7 View Post

BTW.....in some places it IS illegal not to use "good judgement".
What does that even mean?
post #80 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by momo7 View Post
You are missing my point entirely. I asked a question. I asked about good judgement in general and gave some examples. My question wasn't about what "I" consider good judgement. I was talking about it's general use. Another example would be like when you go into a convenience store and you see a magazine rack, and the ummm the "questionable" magazines are usually covered up to the titles. You know...'cause it's probably "good judgement" to cover them up so children can't see them.

BTW.....in some places it IS illegal not to use "good judgement".
Our school board thought it was general good judgment to protect young children from same sex families. They though the topic was questionable and not suitable for children. General good judgment has to come from someone or some group. Thankfully the government didn't agree with their idea of what is "good judgement".

So again, who's good judgment do we use?

Just because something is illegal it doesn't mean the law is a good one.
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