Does this happen at your library? Would you be okay with it? - Page 5

[One_Girl]

Originally Posted by momo7

You are missing my point entirely. I asked a question. I asked about good judgement in general and gave some examples. My question wasn't about what "I" consider good judgement. I was talking about it's general use. Another example would be like when you go into a convenience store and you see a magazine rack, and the ummm the "questionable" magazines are usually covered up to the titles. You know...'cause it's probably "good judgement" to cover them up so children can't see them.

BTW.....in some places it IS illegal not to use "good judgement".

I don't think there is such a thing as "good judgment" in general. There are laws that people follow because they don't want to get in trouble, but "good judgment" in general implies that you are going to use someone's "good judgment", or the "good judgment" of a group of people and make that the standard. That brings up the question of who's we will use.

We actually don't have magazines that are covered up in our stores. Perhaps they put those in another section where kids aren't as likely to access or they don't sell them because they lose business if they don't. That isn't good judgment, that is good business sense. We still have many magazines in plain view that aren't blatant pornography, with easy to read titles that have spurred discussion in our family, but I still don't think that covering them up would be good judgment. It isn't something that a lot of people care about and if they do they go to the one family isle where there aren't any magazines.

I don't think that good judgment in general is something that any one person can dictate because not a lot of people agree on what good judgment is. And if it is illegal to not use "good judgment" then I would argue that it isn't good judgment people are using but fear of what happens to people who break the law.

[Marsupialmom]

You would be reminded there is a children's section with plenty of room.

I have seen librains ask people to switch location for more risky materials, but if it is not porn (illigal for minors to watch) then it is mostly ignored.

What if they were reading the Joy of Sex? The Joy of Gay sex? Those pictures could be out there and easily seen by your kids. Your actions might have actually made the situation more noticable.

As young as your children are, move along. If a child notice talk to them about your opinion and beliefs. Adventually they are going to be more in the world and they will have to manage this stuff on their own.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by velochic

You also can't legally segregate in public libraries.

If computers are for public use, they have to be open for anybody, in any area. They can "call" an area "Adult Computer Area" and "Teen Computer Area", but they can't tell a teen they can't work on a computer in the Adult area. It's a compliance issue for public libraries. They have to have some minimum internet safety policies in place on ALL the computers. This is called CIPA certification (you can google for it). Look up E-Rate Certification, too. This the the whole "non discrimination" policy that public libraries have to follow in order to get your tax dollars. HTH!

Our library does this. Your library card works only at certain computers. We have children, teen, & adult. No one can use a library in another section. I never realized it was illegal.

[velochic]

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom

Our library does this. Your library card works only at certain computers. We have children, teen, & adult. No one can use a library in another section. I never realized it was illegal.

When we put in our new teen computer area last year, this subject came up. We have an attorney on our board of directors and she said that we can't restrict who uses what because it's public access and would considered age discrimination.

For example, if an adult really likes the Dr. Seuss storybook on the toddler's computers (that has no internet access), you can't tell them that they are too old to use the computer.

If all of the computers in the adult section are filled up, you can't make a patron wait if there are computers free in the children's/young adult section, and visa versa. I don't make the rules, I just follow them.

[Oriole]

Originally Posted by eepster

Our library has preteen/teen/youngadult books and materials in a separate room from the picture books and such. So pretty much only children under 11 or 12 yo are in the main children's section.

That's out set up.

[rightkindofme]

If someone were watching real, honest-to-betsy porn at the library I would be kind of shocked. I would probably walk up to the person and say, in a not quiet voice, "You realize that if a minor decides to hang out behind you that *you* can be arrested for displaying inappropriate images to a minor--right?" I don't think the library should censor all computers because there are a few idiots who don't think through the full consequences of their actions. I'm also big on directly addressing people I have a problem with. I don't want some anonymous 'The Man' taking care of things. I'm a big girl and I can address my issues myself. If someone were looking at such things in the kid section I would tell them that it wasn't cool. I would glare at them in such a way that they would know loud and clear that I think they should leave. I have like a 99% success rate on my loud glares getting what I want so I'm good with that.

Beyond that if someone really really really wouldn't leave I would take my kids and go. We can come back another day.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by velochic

When we put in our new teen computer area last year, this subject came up. We have an attorney on our board of directors and she said that we can't restrict who uses what because it's public access and would considered age discrimination.

For example, if an adult really likes the Dr. Seuss storybook on the toddler's computers (that has no internet access), you can't tell them that they are too old to use the computer.

If all of the computers in the adult section are filled up, you can't make a patron wait if there are computers free in the children's/young adult section, and visa versa. I don't make the rules, I just follow them.

That's interesting and something I may bring up. I often use the library's computers if we're downtown & I need them, but my son has to twiddle his thumbs because they won't allow him to use the adult computers even with me sitting right there.

I know our library structure is a bit different because we're not public in that most of the money for the library doesn't come from the tax base. A small percentage of our property taxes go to the library, but they mostly are funded through trusts and donations. I wonder if there's a cut-off. I will have to look into this more because it would make my life a heck of a lot easier if they could ease up on that restriction.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by velochic

If you don't want your kid to see what others might be doing on the computer, keep them away from the computers. If you want the computers moved, it takes money, and with public library budgets, be prepared for them to ask you to raise the funding for something that isn't in that year's tight budget.

Ding, ding, ding. I think this is a point often missed. When we want something, we need to be prepared to do the work in making it happen. For me, I wouldn't want the library spending oodles of money on re-positioning monitors so that 1 or 2 people won't be offended if their children happen to see something they consider inappropriate. I'd prefer money spent on more materials.

OTOH, I've learned a lot reading this thread. Our library is very restrictive as far as ages go. Adults are not permitted in the children's section unless they are with children or actively checking out children's books, for example. Even when I go without my children, though they know me, I'm watched like a hawk to make sure I'm getting books. They're a bit over-the-top ime - but apparently they could be breaking the law as well.

Our library recently hired "security" (I have no idea why), and I know that I - and others - have asked him not to read over our shoulders when we're on the computers. I detest people watching while I'm working on something, but in this guy's mind, that's his "right" because it's his job to police the library. It's become quite a scary place.

[momo7]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad

Our school board thought it was general good judgment to protect young children from same sex families. They though the topic was questionable and not suitable for children. General good judgment has to come from someone or some group. Thankfully the government didn't agree with their idea of what is "good judgement".

So again, who's good judgment do we use?

Just because something is illegal it doesn't mean the law is a good one.

***SIGH*** THAT is not what I am talking about at all...I am not talking about same sex families, I am not talking about censorship. I gave examples of what people might consider as "good judgement" or (insert your own whatever word you want to use to take the place of things you do in public and things you don't do in public here) in a previous post. I also used different ways to phrase it such as "common sense". Just basic. common. sense.

I guess it comes down to this: Do what ever you want to do, when ever you want to do it, wherever you want to do it. Because all that REALLY matters is that you actually GET to do whatever you want to do, wherever you want to do it, whenever you want to do it. It doesn't matter who sees it, who might see it or who it scares the SH*& out of it. They can always leave. I get it now. Finally.

[ms.shell]

all the computers at my pl are censored. we were without internet for a few months and i was QUITE distressed to discover i couldn't go on MDC at the library! (Their policy is not to allow access to any discussion forums).
BUT then they had a book called "SuperPuppy" in the children's section that was NOT a children's book at all. I didnt look at it when ds checked it out but he was QUITE distressed when he came to me and said "do you know what they do to dogs that go to the pound?" I looked at the book, and it went into great detail about euthanasia and quoted numbers (millions of dogs killed each year). DS and i were both horrified. I spoke to the children's librarian when i returned it, told her exactly why it should not be in the children's section and she told me she would take care of it. I noticed last week it is still on the shelf in the children's dept.

[MusicianDad]

Originally Posted by momo7

***SIGH*** THAT is not what I am talking about at all...I am not talking about same sex families, I am not talking about censorship. I gave examples of what people might consider as "good judgement" or (insert your own whatever word you want to use to take the place of things you do in public and things you don't do in public here) in a previous post. I also used different ways to phrase it such as "common sense". Just basic. common. sense.

I guess it comes down to this: Do what ever you want to do, when ever you want to do it, wherever you want to do it. Because all that REALLY matters is that you actually GET to do whatever you want to do, wherever you want to do it, whenever you want to do it. It doesn't matter who sees it, who might see it or who it scares the SH*& out of it. They can always leave. I get it now. Finally.

I mention same sex marriage because it affect my family directly and because people use "common sense" and "good judgement" to say that not it is not appropriate for anyone under 18.

We can't legistate common sense. Nor should we try because we have to figure out which person/groups common sense we have to use. Same with good judgment.

You can't say that we aren't allowed to do anything in public that might upset/scare/offend someone. We would never be allowed to do anything in public. A vegan might be upset at seeing someone buy a big a$$ (yeah I can cuss too) steak for themselves. Do we prevent all people from purchasing meat in a public place? Um, no... A conservative Christian might be upset seeing a same sex couple holding hands on the beach. Do we prevent same sex couples from going out in public because someone might get offended? I sure and heck hope not. I've been offended by street corner Evangelists telling me what I need to believe. Do we confine all Evangelists to their home? Annoying as they may be at times, I would hope to God we don't end up there. A parent gets offended seeing a Marylin Manson video in a public library. Do I want to see music censorship in the library or general public realm? Hell no, particularly since I have been on the other side of it. I had the odd person try and censor the music my band played when I was in high school because they couldn't handle not going to that one club on that one night and the music offended them.

I have the right to get up and leave a place if I feel there is something inappropriate for myself or my family there. I do not have the right insist that all other people in the area conform to my idea of what is appropriate so that I don't get offended.

Maybe you don't see the full extent of what you are saying, maybe you don't have never been subjected to the full extent of what you're saying. I don't know, what I do know is that neither you nor anyone else has the right to dictate what is proper, or good judgment, or common sense for me and my family.

[Chamomile Girl]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad

I mention same sex marriage because it affect my family directly and because people use "common sense" and "good judgement" to say that not it is not appropriate for anyone under 18.

We can't legistate common sense. Nor should we try because we have to figure out which person/groups common sense we have to use. Same with good judgment.

You can't say that we aren't allowed to do anything in public that might upset/scare/offend someone. We would never be allowed to do anything in public. A vegan might be upset at seeing someone buy a big a$$ (yeah I can cuss too) steak for themselves. Do we prevent all people from purchasing meat in a public place? Um, no... A conservative Christian might be upset seeing a same sex couple holding hands on the beach. Do we prevent same sex couples from going out in public because someone might get offended? I sure and heck hope not. I've been offended by street corner Evangelists telling me what I need to believe. Do we confine all Evangelists to their home? Annoying as they may be at times, I would hope to God we don't end up there. A parent gets offended seeing a Marylin Manson video in a public library. Do I want to see music censorship in the library or general public realm? Hell no, particularly since I have been on the other side of it. I had the odd person try and censor the music my band played when I was in high school because they couldn't handle not going to that one club on that one night and the music offended them.

I have the right to get up and leave a place if I feel there is something inappropriate for myself or my family there. I do not have the right insist that all other people in the area conform to my idea of what is appropriate so that I don't get offended.

Maybe you don't see the full extent of what you are saying, maybe you don't have never been subjected to the full extent of what you're saying. I don't know, what I do know is that neither you nor anyone else has the right to dictate what is proper, or good judgment, or common sense for me and my family.

Nicely put.

[Purple*Lotus]

From reading this thread, it sounds like my library is breaking a lot of rules I posted already about the huge list of what you can not look at on their computers. And it seems to be standard at them all except for the University library. I wonder why they are able to get away with that?

[JL83]

OP: Is there a reason you didn't point out to the teen that there were little kids around and ask if maybe they could watch that some other time?