or Connect
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Baby › Baby Health › Vaccinations › MMR- especially Measles
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

MMR- especially Measles

post #1 of 30
Thread Starter 
DH got on me this morning about how dangerous measles are and how we need to vax DD. I had (and still have) no intention of doing this. Measles doesn't scare me, should it?

He isn't worried about mumps or rubella, just measles. He says that lots of people die from it (he has no idea as he has refused to do any research on the subject).

So, why should this scare me? I am not impressed by his argument and still don't intend to vax her. But maybe I should consider this a bit more, or at least have more info to sway him (that will never happen btw).
post #2 of 30
He seems to have succumbed to the propaganda....many people do.

Measles can be dangerous, so can the common cold, in a susceptible host. Measles does kill alot of people, mostly in developing countries where there is a profound vit a deficiency, lack of clean water, good food and proper medical care should a complication arise.

Measles was thought of in my parents generation the same way Chicken Pox was in mine. A nuisance that most kids went through and came out just fine. Before there was a vaccine, even the CDC admitted how mild a disease it was. I have seen a PDF file from a previous member here of the CDC's description of it from the 60's pre-vaccine, and then a later description after there was a vaccine created for it. Very eye opening. I do not fear measles. I am well read on the subject, I know what to look out for and how to treat it naturally/homeopathically should it ever come to our house. Have your DH watch the Brady Bunch episode. http://www.blinkx.com/video/the-brad...XO3MhdzsNbPFqQ

As late as the late 90's vaccine manufacturers admitted that the MMR was contaminated with Avian viruses and they had known about it for decades and had done nothing....do you really think anything has changed?? Stick to your guns. If he has done no research, then he shouldn't get a say IMHO.
post #3 of 30
In counties with poor sanitation, it's deadly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measles

Wiki-schmiki, I know, but you can follow the off-Wiki links to verify the claims. One day chickenpox will be remembered as a great killer. Those of us who had it remember itching and oatmeal baths and calamine and the scent of Campho-fenique.
post #4 of 30
Thread Starter 
Thanks, you know I was looking into measles earlier today and it dawned on me that me *might* be thinking of smallpox.

The kinda funny thing is he is totally against the chicken pox vaccine.
post #5 of 30
I forgot all about that episode, Marnica. Interesting to see how a generation that routinely encountered the measles saw it as no big deal, and the kids said it's the way to be sick, no medications or anything! The chart Carol and Alice were working up listed mumps, and there was no big deal about it. Nowadays one kid getting measles makes news as a potential deadly outbreak.

Also on the chart were chickenpox, scarlett fever, poisin oak, and whooping cough. Rabies at the bottom was for Tiger, the dog, and was a shot.

Marnica, would you still have that pdf? I'm starting to worry about my daughter's doctor's degree of pressuring us into vaccines. We say no, she spends every visit trying to talk us into it, and I'm getting concerned she may call in CPS if she thinks we're neglecting our baby. Audrey's on Medi-Cal, and there's no public transportation out of this small town to go to another city during the day when her dad's at work with our car, so it's not so easy as just switching doctors to one who is more natural-minded and will respect our decision on this matter. The more I can hand to her the better.
post #6 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marnica View Post
As late as the late 90's vaccine manufacturers admitted that the MMR was contaminated with Avian viruses and they had known about it for decades and had done nothing....do you really think anything has changed??
It hasn't changed! http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/04/v....html#comments

Quote:
In addition to pig viral DNA found in Rotarix vaccine, low levels of DNA fragments from avian (bird) leukosis virus (a retrovirus) was found in measles vaccine and DNA fragments of a virus similar to simian (monkey) retrovirus was found in RotaTeq vaccine.
post #7 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Grace- View Post
I forgot all about that episode, Marnica. Interesting to see how a generation that routinely encountered the measles saw it as no big deal, and the kids said it's the way to be sick, no medications or anything! The chart Carol and Alice were working up listed mumps, and there was no big deal about it. Nowadays one kid getting measles makes news as a potential deadly outbreak.

Also on the chart were chickenpox, scarlett fever, poisin oak, and whooping cough. Rabies at the bottom was for Tiger, the dog, and was a shot.

Marnica, would you still have that pdf? I'm starting to worry about my daughter's doctor's degree of pressuring us into vaccines. We say no, she spends every visit trying to talk us into it, and I'm getting concerned she may call in CPS if she thinks we're neglecting our baby. Audrey's on Medi-Cal, and there's no public transportation out of this small town to go to another city during the day when her dad's at work with our car, so it's not so easy as just switching doctors to one who is more natural-minded and will respect our decision on this matter. The more I can hand to her the better.

Grace -

I wish I did still have it!! I lost it about 1 yr ago and have not been able to find it again. If ANYONE finds it anywhere, please let us know! It really was so interesting to see the differences.
post #8 of 30
Measles doesn't frighten me really at all. Other than the research and the simple numbers game showing it's not that big of a concern to have it in the US, it's more a gut thing based on anecedotal evidence. My grandmother saw her 2 yr old sister die of scarlet fever, and lived when there weren't vaccines or antibiotics readily available. When my cousin got measles in the late 80's she was completely not concerned, as she'd seen it often before and had never had reason to see it as deadly or even really that big of a deal. Then last year we picked up a medical book set published in 1919. Very interesting read!! For measles, it was a 1/2 pg entry, considered a common childhood illness, and one that was easily managed. (Smallpox was an entirely different story!) The one huge thing it emphasized though was that at the start of the illness when the child had a fever, it was crucial to keep them pretty inactive and let them rest, and if you did that the rest was easy. I figure if, in the conditions of 1919, the virus was seen as a minor event then unless it's had massive mutations it just cannot be that dire for most people!

One thing you may want to point out to your DH is the recent outbreak in NYC (I think that's where it was). 25% of the children who got it were unvaxxed....meaning the vax failed on 75% of the children who did catch it!
post #9 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by SunshineJ View Post
Measles doesn't frighten me really at all. Other than the research and the simple numbers game showing it's not that big of a concern to have it in the US, it's more a gut thing based on anecedotal evidence. My grandmother saw her 2 yr old sister die of scarlet fever, and lived when there weren't vaccines or antibiotics readily available. When my cousin got measles in the late 80's she was completely not concerned, as she'd seen it often before and had never had reason to see it as deadly or even really that big of a deal. Then last year we picked up a medical book set published in 1919. Very interesting read!! For measles, it was a 1/2 pg entry, considered a common childhood illness, and one that was easily managed. (Smallpox was an entirely different story!) The one huge thing it emphasized though was that at the start of the illness when the child had a fever, it was crucial to keep them pretty inactive and let them rest, and if you did that the rest was easy. I figure if, in the conditions of 1919, the virus was seen as a minor event then unless it's had massive mutations it just cannot be that dire for most people!

One thing you may want to point out to your DH is the recent outbreak in NYC (I think that's where it was). 25% of the children who got it were unvaxxed....meaning the vax failed on 75% of the children who did catch it!
Just to clarify, the outbreak in NY has been a mumps outbreak, not a measles outbreak
post #10 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marnica View Post
Just to clarify, the outbreak in NY has been a mumps outbreak, not a measles outbreak
Bah that's right! My mistake - thanks for clarifying that!
post #11 of 30
[QUOTE=Marnica;15294541] I do not fear measles. I am well read on the subject, I know what to look out for and how to treat it naturally/homeopathically should it ever come to our house. QUOTE]


marnica, i found this pamphlet
http://www.measlesinitiative.org/mi-...20Children.pdf

what do you think since you say your are well versed on the disease and how to treat it? basically this pamphlet scared the sh*t out of me and now i really dont know what to do. i do understand that the severe measles cases are in very poor developing countires, but what if my child for whatever reason is not healthy enough to fight it off? the pamphlet also states that kids are suseptible to secondary infection for a long time after getting the measles, which is also scary.
one last thing, it says in kids over 2 to get 200,000 ius of vitamin a as a treatment. where do you get that much vit. a in a capsule? the doctor?
post #12 of 30
[QUOTE=NYMOM07;15299914]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marnica View Post
I do not fear measles. I am well read on the subject, I know what to look out for and how to treat it naturally/homeopathically should it ever come to our house. QUOTE]


marnica, i found this pamphlet
http://www.measlesinitiative.org/mi-...20Children.pdf

what do you think since you say your are well versed on the disease and how to treat it? basically this pamphlet scared the sh*t out of me and now i really dont know what to do. i do understand that the severe measles cases are in very poor developing countires, but what if my child for whatever reason is not healthy enough to fight it off? the pamphlet also states that kids are suseptible to secondary infection for a long time after getting the measles, which is also scary.
one last thing, it says in kids over 2 to get 200,000 ius of vitamin a as a treatment. where do you get that much vit. a in a capsule? the doctor?
Im going to pipe in here as I feel the same way as Marnica.

I have vit. A drops, each drop is 5,000 IU. cant remember where I ordered from but it shouldn't be hard to find in any vitamin catalog. However, in the pdf it was clear to state this large amount was to be used for measles only in the following conditions:

• in areas where measles case fatality is probably more than 1 %
• in areas of known vitamin A deficiency
• in all cases of severe complicated measles.

If you are living in NY chances are your child is not going to be one of the ones described in this pamplet which seem to deal with vit. A deficient children (malnourished in many other ways too) in developing countries. I would not feel comfortable giving my child that much vit. A. I would probably supplement a little (with cod liver oil or some drops) but probably nowhere near 200,000 ...unless my child was already diagnosed as having 'severe complicated measles' and then I'd consider it, with drs supervision.. This is a fat soluble vitamin you don't want to overdose on.

I'm guessing the reason the child is susceptible to other infections for a long time afterwards is because having measles wipes out the body stores of vit. A (which is needed for ALL infections not just measles) - eating healthy afterwards should replenish vitamin and mineral levels (unless of course you are starving and malnourished and do not have adequate foods to build and maintain health)

Thanks for the link- I didnt realize they gave this vax as early as 6 months in developing countries. Wow.

This whole thing is written for developing countries. not the U.S. So I don't understand why it alarms you really. The same thing (or similar) could probably be said of influenza, chicken pox, and so many other illnesses. These common infections can KILL young children (or anyone for that matter, I'd guess) if they are malnourished and starving and do not have access to modern medicine (like iv fluids to prevent death from dehydration, for example) Being malnourished weakens the whole body leaving it susceptible to common infections that everyone else would not have a problem with. If you feel your child is malnourished and not getting adequate nutrition then I can understand your fear. Otherwise ?? I don't get it, I read the entire thing and it was not alarming. IF my child for whatever reason was unlucky and got complication, I would be worried as anyone would, but chances are he would get the common complications listed (pneumonia, ear infection, cough, etc) - these are all things children already get, (and some of which he already had before)

This was very interesting though.
post #13 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by SunshineJ View Post
Then last year we picked up a medical book set published in 1919. Very interesting read!! For measles, it was a 1/2 pg entry, considered a common childhood illness, and one that was easily managed. (Smallpox was an entirely different story!) The one huge thing it emphasized though was that at the start of the illness when the child had a fever, it was crucial to keep them pretty inactive and let them rest, and if you did that the rest was easy. I figure if, in the conditions of 1919, the virus was seen as a minor event then unless it's had massive mutations it just cannot be that dire for most people!

One thing you may want to point out to your DH is the recent outbreak in NYC (I think that's where it was). 25% of the children who got it were unvaxxed....meaning the vax failed on 75% of the children who did catch it!
I agree very much.

The outbreak was mumps, as someone else already pointed out. If it is such a deadly disease, then why has not a single person died or had any serious complications? Bark's worse than the bite.
post #14 of 30
[QUOTE=NYMOM07;15299914]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marnica View Post
I do not fear measles. I am well read on the subject, I know what to look out for and how to treat it naturally/homeopathically should it ever come to our house. QUOTE]


marnica, i found this pamphlet
http://www.measlesinitiative.org/mi-...20Children.pdf

what do you think since you say your are well versed on the disease and how to treat it? basically this pamphlet scared the sh*t out of me and now i really dont know what to do. i do understand that the severe measles cases are in very poor developing countires, but what if my child for whatever reason is not healthy enough to fight it off? the pamphlet also states that kids are suseptible to secondary infection for a long time after getting the measles, which is also scary.
one last thing, it says in kids over 2 to get 200,000 ius of vitamin a as a treatment. where do you get that much vit. a in a capsule? the doctor?
I'm not Marnica, but I'm also well-read on a lot of these diseases, partially from being a parent myself, partially because I am immunosuppressed and don't get vaccines myself.

The WHO operates on a world-wide scale. That pamphlet is discussing developing nations. In these countries, aka third-world countries (we are first-word...what the heck is a second-world?), things that are very minor here, like a skinned knee, can be a death sentence. Their lack of sanitation and clean drinking water, clean water with which to wash plays a very large role in this. Malnourished bodies are also less able to fight off minor illnesses. Our strong, healthy bodies can fight off illnesses much stronger than anything they could even dream of handling.

If you look at measles on a world-wide scale, there's a high chance of death. If you look at it country by country, in the US and other first-world nations, it's very minor. Sadly this means that the chance of dying in those third-world countries is actually greater than the 700k/3m once adjusted for world region.
post #15 of 30
[QUOTE=NYMOM07;15299914]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marnica View Post
I do not fear measles. I am well read on the subject, I know what to look out for and how to treat it naturally/homeopathically should it ever come to our house. QUOTE]


marnica, i found this pamphlet
http://www.measlesinitiative.org/mi-...20Children.pdf

what do you think since you say your are well versed on the disease and how to treat it? basically this pamphlet scared the sh*t out of me and now i really dont know what to do. i do understand that the severe measles cases are in very poor developing countires, but what if my child for whatever reason is not healthy enough to fight it off? the pamphlet also states that kids are suseptible to secondary infection for a long time after getting the measles, which is also scary.
one last thing, it says in kids over 2 to get 200,000 ius of vitamin a as a treatment. where do you get that much vit. a in a capsule? the doctor?

Hi...I agree with PP that that was really written about developing countries. You ask what if my child is not healthy enough to fight it off? I believe it is our responsibilities as parents to nuture our children's immune system (barring any immunodeficiency). If your child is small, you have a great deal of control over how healthy they are and how strong their immune system will be.
Feed your child whole, organic, nutritious foods. Avoid processed food and excess sugar. Avoid exposing your child to pesticicides and other environmental toxins. We use all natural cleaning products in our house and even use organic pesiticide free lawn care. Make sure they get plenty of sleep, feash air and exercise. Avoid unnessesary use of antibiotics. Familiarize yourself with nutrition, what vitamins and minerals are needed and for what. We also get regular chiropractic adjustments, see an ND and I have a healthy grasp of nartural/homeoptahic treatments to use of minor injuries and ailments. For more serious things, I consult our ND. It has taken me yaers to read and learn about all of these things and I learn more everyday. (I really went into the wornd line of work...I want to be an ND so much, but no time or $ for school )
Anyway my point is, I feel it is my responsibility to learn about all this stuff if I want my child to heave a healthy immune system. It's not something that just IS. I believe it is something that needs to be nurtured, especially living in the toxic world that we live in.
post #16 of 30
My argument would be/IS that if you dont want to do the research, you dont get a say. PERIOD.
post #17 of 30
[QUOTE=newmum35;15300472][QUOTE=NYMOM07;15299914]
would probably supplement a little (with cod liver oil or some drops) but probably nowhere near 200,000 ...unless my child was already diagnosed as having 'severe complicated measles' and then I'd consider it, with drs supervision.. This is a fat soluble vitamin you don't want to overdose on. QUOTE]

Here is some great info on Vit A. I would feel totally fine giving doses that high, given it was from the right source. This website has some great info and lots of studies cited. https://www.westonaprice.org/Vitamin-A-Saga.html
post #18 of 30
[QUOTE=Marnica;15300977][QUOTE=newmum35;15300472]
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYMOM07 View Post
would probably supplement a little (with cod liver oil or some drops) but probably nowhere near 200,000 ...unless my child was already diagnosed as having 'severe complicated measles' and then I'd consider it, with drs supervision.. This is a fat soluble vitamin you don't want to overdose on. QUOTE]

Here is some great info on Vit A. I would feel totally fine giving doses that high, given it was from the right source. This website has some great info and lots of studies cited. https://www.westonaprice.org/Vitamin-A-Saga.html
Which source would that be? I think my drops are part beta carotene and part something else (preformed, I'd guess) - would need to double check on that.
Great link. thanks
post #19 of 30
[QUOTE=-Grace-;15300568]
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYMOM07 View Post

we are first-word...what the heck is a second-world?
The terms stem from the cold war. The First World is the US and its allies, the Second World is what used to be the Soviet Union and the East bloc states, and the Third World is the rest.

http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworl..._countries.htm

Ok, I know this wasn't the main topic of the discussion, but I thought it was interesting.

As for the MMR I am unsure myself. My youngest is now four and I remember reading somewhere that the the MMR is basically safe after the age of three and a half. I am not horribly worried about measles, and since I have a boy I don't think rubella is much of an issue. But I don't know how high a risk of infertility mumps poses for a boy.

I was really hassled by the nurse at the four-year-checkup a couple of months ago. The MMR is not compulsory (no vaccines are) so there is no need for an "excemption", but apparently she thought I was being very egotistical in not wanting to consider anything other than my own child's wellbeing, and put quite a bit of pressure on me.
post #20 of 30
So why does the WHO threaten people living in countries with good sanitation with the disease rates of countries with poor sanitation?

Methinks I smell fearmongering and manipulation.

[QUOTE=-Grace-;15300568]
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYMOM07 View Post

I'm not Marnica, but I'm also well-read on a lot of these diseases, partially from being a parent myself, partially because I am immunosuppressed and don't get vaccines myself.

The WHO operates on a world-wide scale. That pamphlet is discussing developing nations. In these countries, aka third-world countries (we are first-word...what the heck is a second-world?), things that are very minor here, like a skinned knee, can be a death sentence. Their lack of sanitation and clean drinking water, clean water with which to wash plays a very large role in this. Malnourished bodies are also less able to fight off minor illnesses. Our strong, healthy bodies can fight off illnesses much stronger than anything they could even dream of handling.

If you look at measles on a world-wide scale, there's a high chance of death. If you look at it country by country, in the US and other first-world nations, it's very minor. Sadly this means that the chance of dying in those third-world countries is actually greater than the 700k/3m once adjusted for world region.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Vaccinations
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Baby › Baby Health › Vaccinations › MMR- especially Measles