At what point do you seek professional help?

[Surfer Rosa]

...and where do you go?

DD has been going through a rough sleep phase for oh...a year and a half. I'm thinking that it's maybe not "just a phase", and that maybe we should investigate some more avenues to good sleep

We're in Canada, if there are any Canadians here! Thanks!

[HappyMonkey]

What do you mean by rough sleep phase?

[LadyCatherine185]

"Sleep professionals" are not going to give you any good advice, other than strict routine/scheduling and CIO.

Now, you could talk with your ped about possible reasons for waking such as reflux, food allergies, etc. But IME most peds will also tell you to CIO.

I have heard good things about chiropractic and craniosacral adjustments helping sleep.

I also recommend reading "Sleepless in America."

[Surfer Rosa]

I'll try to be brief, but I think there are a few things going on. DD is 4.5 She is bright, has a really incredible imagination, is quick/aware, and sensitive. She has allergies, asthma, and eczema...and I think these play a part in her sleep problems too. We are visiting a naturopath this week, and may try chiro as well.

Some background:
E has never been a great sleeper-very light, very restless. She slept with us for the first 6 mos, then p/t co slept on and off til she was 3 (for months at a time, she'd STTN; sometimes she'd sleep til 12, sometimes til 3, then be in our bed).

When she turned 3, a lot of changes came: she moved to a big girl room (she'd been in the nursery attached to our room), her baby brother was born, she started a new preschool. During the day she was happy and excited about these changes. No real issues with brother, loves preschool, was excited about her new room. DD started waking 5-10 times a night. We'd get up with her, take her back to bed (not into cosleeping with a newborn and toddler), get her settled, etc. On the nth visit, DH would just fall asleep in her bed for the night (yay, Queen size bed). Eventually he just began sleeping in her room, as we knew she'd be up anyway, and we thought it would be short term. Our motto tends to be "whatever it takes to get the sleep".

THE CURRENT ISSUE:
So...she still wakes several times a night. At times, she comes quietly into our room and one of us takes her back to bed. I can handle these, but she also has very disturbing episodes where she is thrashing around, hitting, very upset, totally incoherent (though speaking clearly, what she says does not make any sense), screaming and crying. It is very distressing for us to see her like this, and only sometimes does she seem tor espond to what we're saying to her. Tonight she has been up twice already with these (and it's only midnight)and it takes 30+ minutes to re-settle her.

So...at what point does she have a "problem"? She is losing a lot of sleep and we are just ragged trying to help her all night. Is there anything that conventional medicine can do? She is crying again, so I have to run, but i will try to post back here later. Thanks for any insight you have!

[Freud]

Sorry you guys are going through this...I'd head on over to a child psychologist for help.

[pyxiwulf]

OP, souds like parasomnia manifesting as a night terror or confusional arousals. My daughter is 3y10m and very bright too (reading already) has all of the NREM parasomnias, and we've asked for intervention from the ped (whom we hunted for to be less interventionist ) and he's on the "she'll grow out of it, continue whatever sleep philosophy your family uses normally" band wagon. BUT it is seriously affecting her daytime function, so we're frustrated too and ready to look at pharmacological treatment.

Anyway, this was all to say, read up on behavioural therapies, 30+ minutes to resettle, sounds to me like you're either pulling her completely out, or not far enough out. I know how miserable this is.

[Jend1002]

I agree with LadyCatherine - sleep experts often give advice that is not in line with your parenting choices. I experienced this first hand! I am somewhat convinced that my son may have a sleep disorder and I see no reason why I shouldn't rule this out through a sleep study. While the last neurologist (neurotic one, I may add) was a total jerk and just blabbed on and on about CIO, my ped arranged an appt. with a different neurologist who isn't like that. In fact, we have a consult on Tuesday so I will let you know what (if anything) I learn.

I have been pulling for a sleep study because it is a non-invasive way to see what is going on while DS sleeps. You may learn that there is a problem or you may not. I figure more info is good - there may be different approaches based on what is going on. Because of your child's age, it should be easier to find a sleep center that can do an eval., if that is the direction you wish to go. Good luck! I know this is hard!

[PGTlatte]

This sounds like night terrors. Our DS1 had them until around age 5. Our DS2 is 4.5 and still having them.

I know they are very disturbing to witness. Our ped has told us they are not dangerous as long as the child is kept from injuring themselves. They are not uncommon and they usually outgrow them. One possible cause is a drop in blood sugar that happens at a certain point in the sleep pattern. She recommended eating a snack with protein in it before bedtime, to help slow the blood sugar drop.

http://pediatrics.about.com/cs/sleep...ht_terrors.htm

http://www.drgreene.com/azguide/night-terrors?tid=214

[Surfer Rosa]

Thanks for the links! Looking at parasomnias, it seems like she might be experiencing partial arousals/confusion. She doesn't remember anything in the morning at all, and seems fairly bewildered when I mention how distressed she is at night.
I'm going to put a call into our family doctor, but I'm not holding my breath. I would bet by the time we got into a sleep specialist, the problem will have resolved itself (I hope!)

We have a solid bedtime routine, but I am going to incorporate a few things I've read about in the last day or so to help wind her down (adding in a snack...)

Thanks-and although I'm sorry to hear I'm not alone, I'm glad there are people who understand

[Jend1002]

Update

I just wanted to update about my sleep study consult. The doctor, who is a neurologist, was wonderful and she put in a referral for an official sleep study. We will go and sleep at the center and they will monitor things like CO2 output and brain activity through skin sensors. This will help determine if DS is not getting through sleep cycles properly or if he has apnea (which I really doubt). I do think that he never gets into deep sleep so we will now know for sure.

We'll see how it goes!

Maybe this type of study would help determine if your daughter is experiencing parasomnias? Fingers crossed that the problem does resolve itself quickly anyway!

[Surfer Rosa]

I wanted to follow up, and see if anyone had any advice. DD is still having the same issues. In May we had a 5 night STTN run, but nothing since, and no idea what prompted it.

We saw a chiro for 6 sessions (she found some alignment and stress points/issues, and was confident that we'd dealt with them). We also saw a naturopath, who prescribed a magnesium supplement as well as glycerin before bed, and a protein snack before bed. We had some success with this (less parasomnia), but still waking up several times a night(meaning we have all been up several times a night) and she is still having a hard time settling down. We tried setting up a bed in our room, and told her she could come in and lie down, if she could do so without waking us up, but it was a fail. We also tried leaving her relaxed, but not quite asleep, thinking that maybe she'd sleep better if she managed to put herself down (we usually lie with her). Sometimes it worked, sometimes not. She really does seem to have anxiety in settling down (she'll say "I'm telling my brain and body to fall asleep, but they're not listening", for example.)

The question:
Her 5 YO check up app't is next week, and I want to get her some help. Do I request a neurologist? Sleep study? Medication? The lack of sleep is really interfering with her day to day function