What do I do with these?

[leighi123]

religious books....

Ds got 4 board books from his great grandparents, who are very active in the church. They are all religous - one that says 'god made....' on each page, one that is the easter story from the bible (with pics of jesus on the cross and people with wepons!), and one is a jesus christmas book, and the last is 'jesus loves me, and talks about how each person is different (aside from the jesus bits, I like this one)

I am atheist, and ds is only 2 so doesnt have opinions one way or another, but I dont want him to learn 'god made this and that' etc b/c thats not what I believe.

Would it be terrible to give them away? Or should I keep them dispite not wanting to 'teach' him that stuff (can I put it as 'some people believe that god..... ). Another thing is they put To:... From: .... in the front in pen.

They arent likley to visit us here, although there is a possiblity.


Something else - my mom was brought up religious (these are not her parents btw), and taught at a religous school, so before dinner she leads a little prayer which ds has picked up on and now says. It kinda bothers me b/c I dont really want him 'praising the lord', but at the same time I want him to be thankful for what he has (just not thanking the lord...kwim?). There is another prayer that 'thanks the earth' which I like much better, but Im not sure how to change it around b/c he already knows the 'lord' one so well.


Another thing!: They want to know if I am going to get ds baptized! My sister and I were baptized in elementary school, basically because it made them REALLY happy. Personally the cerimony didnt mean anything, but to them it meant the world. I dunno if I should do the same with ds or not.

[kayabrink]

Books: If it were me, I wouldn't keep them. But, I ruthlessly declutter any items that don't fit my personal agenda.

Prayer: I would also teach the "thank the earth" one at home.

Baptism: Wouldn't baptize my kids no matter how it made anyone feel, because I definitely do not believe, however I do have a personal belief that prevents me from promising to raise my children to be religious (essence of a baptism), when I clearly will not.

That was about the age we had lots of discussions with ds about how, some people believe in God and some believe in hazard, and then the same discussions about creationism/natural selection, higher powers/non-existence thereof etc. It always irks me because no one in my family actively practices any religion, yet they have told ds about god, jesus, heaven, hell, read the bible to him, sung hymns to him. I have always stressed to him how these are pretend stories, to illustrate a point. I also would immediately, when he came home with a new story (e.g. genesis) present the similar stories from other cultures (e.g. earth on turtle's back // genesis). Then I would tell what I believe (in this ex., big bang theory). If nothing else, my family's bizarre interest in religion has led ds to have a wide array of scientific knowledge.

[swd12422]

ITA with Kaya.

Ditch the books or donate them to a local church daycare. Can the "lord" prayer be modified by just a word or two to give thanks to the earth instead of God, or is it too much for him to adapt? If it's too much, or you'd rather he say the other prayer you have, just start saying both. Once he learns the earth prayer, you can ditch the other one. And I'd NEVER participate in a religious ceremony just to please someone else, especially if it were my child, not myself. (I did have a semi-religious wedding ceremony to make my parents happy, but DH and I worked out the entire thing and made it ours so there wasn't anything in there that didn't fit with us and our beliefs.) But I refused to perform any religious rites on my son when he was a baby b/c I just don't believe in them, and have no desire to force religion on him or to fake it to make everyone else happy. If he chooses that religion when he's older, he can undergo whatever rites he needs to follow the "rules." If he chooses another religion, that's fine too. But it'll be his choice, not mine.

[nextcommercial]

Well, I am a Christian. So, I think you should be too.

But, seriously, if I turn this around, and someone gave my Christian family books about atheism, I'd first be offended. (assuming they know my religious choices) Then, I'd probably give the books to a nice charity somewhere. It's nice of them to buy those, and I understand what they are trying to do. But, I just wouldn't want them in my home.

The prayer. I think I would drop that and let it go away on it's own. Eventually he will forget to say his prayer and it will just fade away.

As far as Babtism goes, I am Christian, and I wouldn't babtize a young child anyway. It's a choice that the person makes when they are old enough to make it on their own. My daughter was 16. I was 35. We might "dedicate" a baby. But, not babtize them. Dedicating them means you are making a promise to your church, your family and God that you will raise your child in a Godly home. <--obviously, not something you plan to do.

I do understand what your parents are trying to do. They want what they think is the right thing for your kids. I think that's wonderful. But, it isn't what YOU want, and he's your child. You are making the major decisions, they can show him what they believe as he gets older, and he can make his own choices.

You sound like you are completely open to letting him choose when he's older. But, right now, you don't need to keep those things in your home.

[intrepidmother]

No matter what your parents or in-laws believe, you are still your DS's number 1 influence.

Personally, I wouldn't get rid of the books- It opens up a lot of opportunity for discussions.... and to teach your DS about different world views and religions.

Prayer- If your DS one day decides to believe in "the lord", are you going to actively try to change his mind? Personally, if my DD decided to say something or adopt a ritual---- I would try to accept it as her developing her own perspective and personality.

I don't know- I guess I don't understand why it's an issue.

However, with that said, I wouldn't get him baptized.

[jeanine123]

I would give the books away. I will choose when and how I want to teach my children about other religions and which books I want to use when doing so, if I want to use any at all.

Personally I wouldn't sweat too much about the prayer right now but would introduce the one that you prefer. Kids at that age are such mimics and it doesn't take long for the coolness of something to wear off and for it to soon be forgotten.

No way on earth would I baptize my children if it wasn't something I wanted or agreed with. Not only is it disrespectful to me and my beliefs but I feel that it is also very disrespectful to those who are strong believers.

[rightkindofme]

I am demonstrably not a Christian. That said, I'm all for teaching about religion. My books about Christianity (including the ones aimed at kids) are on the same shelf as the books about other myths. She likes the Greek myths the best so far. The Norse myths are a little over her head. I also talk to her about Wicca, Buddhism, and evolution. I really don't worry about her getting brain washed.

[TiredX2]

Originally Posted by rightkindofme

I am demonstrably not a Christian. That said, I'm all for teaching about religion. My books about Christianity (including the ones aimed at kids) are on the same shelf as the books about other myths. She likes the Greek myths the best so far. The Norse myths are a little over her head. I also talk to her about Wicca, Buddhism, and evolution. I really don't worry about her getting brain washed.

This is also what we do. I am agnostic, DP is athiest, DD (11) is athiest and DS (8) doesn't know yet. He has definately moved away from his earlier ideas of G-d, though.

Personally, I think a firm grounding in Christian mythos is important in our culture because of the many references in literature and the arts. I've kept biblical story books, for this reason, but not prayer ones because they just don't make contextual sense, kwim.

[2goingon2]

Originally Posted by nextcommercial

Well, I am a Christian. So, I think you should be too.

But, seriously, if I turn this around, and someone gave my Christian family books about atheism, I'd first be offended. (assuming they know my religious choices) Then, I'd probably give the books to a nice charity somewhere. It's nice of them to buy those, and I understand what they are trying to do. But, I just wouldn't want them in my home.

The prayer. I think I would drop that and let it go away on it's own. Eventually he will forget to say his prayer and it will just fade away.

As far as Babtism goes, I am Christian, and I wouldn't babtize a young child anyway. It's a choice that the person makes when they are old enough to make it on their own. My daughter was 16. I was 35. We might "dedicate" a baby. But, not babtize them. Dedicating them means you are making a promise to your church, your family and God that you will raise your child in a Godly home. <--obviously, not something you plan to do.

I do understand what your parents are trying to do. They want what they think is the right thing for your kids. I think that's wonderful. But, it isn't what YOU want, and he's your child. You are making the major decisions, they can show him what they believe as he gets older, and he can make his own choices.

You sound like you are completely open to letting him choose when he's older. But, right now, you don't need to keep those things in your home.

Baptising at birth or infancy or any other time depends on the religion. Not all faiths wait until you are a certain age/accountability to baptise.

If it were me, I wouldn't baptise my child just to make the grandparents happy.

Regarding the books - I would keep them. They could be part of your child's library and like other posters mentioned, used in teaching different beliefs. You could certainly say "some people believe", etc.

[LynnS6]

My family goes to church, and are raising our children in the church.

If I were in your shoes I would:
1. Give the books away because they clearly do not fit with your beliefs.

2. Teach an alternative dinner time routine that involves giving thanks but not praising the Lord.

3. Do not baptize your children or allow them to be baptized unless they choose to do so as teenagers or adults. Part of baptism means that you promise to raise your children in the faith and put the holy scripture into their hands. Why would you make that promise? Our church teaches "Baptism is the entry rite into Christian faith. It is an act instituted by God, performed using water in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, whereby the baptized is united with Christ." You do not intend to raise your children in the faith, so why do it?

While we are Christian, I do not believe that the Christian church is the one true way of belief (I'm probably a heretic in many circles). Teach your children your morals, your values and your traditions.

[Owen'nZoe]

We're in a similar situation (except with one set of Christian grandparents, and one set of Muslim grandparents), and I used to find it so distressing when my child's (Christian) great-grandparents would give an religious gift (their gifts are religious at least half the time). I understand the conundrum.

That said, we've chosen to keep the books for now. I've made sure the kids have books that reflect many different religious traditions, and I present the Christian ones in the same way ("This is a story that some people believe about x..."). They have a Noah's Ark book that is actually one of their favorites.

We've not baptised - there was a lot of pressure to from my family in the beginning, but after a couple years, they gave up. As far as I know, it has become a non-issue, although, who knows - they could all be discussing it behind my back. I just wouldn't feel right going through a sacrament for appearances, though. To me, it cheapens the significance of a ritual that is so very important to a religious person.

We've not run into the same situation with prayers, as other than grace on holidays, the children have only said Muslim prayers with their grandma, and they don't speak Arabic, so do not understand the prayers. I think I'd teach an earth-based prayer that was in line with my beliefs to use at home, but not make a big deal of it if the child chose to continue with the religious prayer.

[sapphire_chan]

1. Rip out the To: From: page and send the books to the thriftstore
3. Part of a baptism ceremony in many denominations is designating a person to guide the child's religious upbringing. They also frequently involve statements of faith by the parents. The whole concept is unbelievably unsuited to your family.

1, continued, someone mentioned keeping the books as part of teaching about different faiths. When you get to the point where you want to teach about "some people believe xyz" a set of children's books about Easter, etc, aren't going to cut it.

[nextcommercial]

Originally Posted by 2goingon2

Baptising at birth or infancy or any other time depends on the religion. Not all faiths wait until you are a certain age/accountability to baptise.

Well, yes. By "we", I meant specifically my family and my church. I wasn't very specific.

[green betty]

Personally, I'd recycle them. I would also not agree to a baptism, because I do not believe in original sin. I do not consider my child to be broken--he is therefore not in need of baptism, salvation, or any other reparative measure. I think a baby blessing or dedication to welcome him/her into a community you are part of is lovely, but quite different from a baptism.

Christianity is very much part of our culture and understanding it is essential for understanding Western history, so of course I want my child to gain a familiarity with it. (Considering that his father and I both have graduate degrees in theology, he'd have a hard time growing up without a sophisticated one!) I don't think didactic literature for a two year old is an appropriate place to start, though, unless you're actively trying to instill belief. We treat religion like sex--answer questions in a pleasantly neutral and factual way when asked, then wait for the next question.

[pauletoy]

So these are books from his great grandparents. I am assuming the great grandparents are older and are not likely to be around for your ds' entire childhood. At some point, he may want something to help him remember his ggparents. Especially if the books have inscriptions.

If the books go against your beliefs, then I would put them away and save them for when your ds is older. I would give them to him after he is old enough to form his own opinions on religion. This way, the books will just be books his ggparents gave him when he was a child and not religious propaganda.

Now, if they have given him other non-religious momentos, I would put them in the recycling bin.

[pauletoy]

Forgot to add, I would not baptize him just for the grandparents.

[nerdymom]

religious books.

As a Christian, if I am given books that espouse a worldview I don't agree with, I will not have them around. Period. I would probably donate them to a Christian charity shop or church. If that person asked about them, I would kindly (after all, these are elderly relatives who I think deserve respect even though they aren't respecting me) explain that to them. We don't believe in making images of God, so I don't keep many Christian picture books around.

'jesus loves me, and talks about how each person is different (aside from the jesus bits, I like this one)
If you like the book, keep it. If your DS asks who Jesus is, would you be okay with explaining that he was a holy man (like you would if he asked about Buddha or Moses)? If you're not ok with that, don't keep the book.

On the subject of the dinner prayer, I know some atheists thank the earth or person who made the meal, which I think is a nice thing to do. In our prayer we ask God to "Let this food nourish and strengthen us, and bless the hands that prepared it." Maybe you could say something similar with him? Or if the idea of any kind of prayer or thanks is against your gut, just don't do it.


Another thing!: They want to know if I am going to get ds baptized!

To me, baptism is a sign and seal of a spiritual covenant, and a promise to my child, my church, and my God that I will raise my child as a Christian, and that he will be afforded the rights and protections of that covenant. It would be offensive to baptize the child of any person who did not recognize the importance of the act, and had no intention of raising that child "in the nurture and admonition of the Lord" (as we say).

It sounds like you need to make you worldview very clear to your family, because they sound a little confused. Lay down clear, visible boundaries now, before your kids are older and it's more difficult.

[RebeccaWo]

I'm atheist as well and I would keep the books. My first thought is that it's something for your child to have from their great-grandparents. Second thought is that I really don't want to censor DD's books, especially about religion. We have board books about many different religions. Hopefully down the line these books will open many discussions about religions and respecting different beliefs.

Editing to add that I should have just quoted and "yeah that'd" rightkindofme.

[sapphire_chan]

Oh, from the great-grandparents not the grandparents? Yeah, tuck them away in a box.

[leighi123]

Ok so here is what Im thinking now...

1. the books - what about keeping them and buying him more books from toerh religions, and teaching him that there are many different religions in the world and some people believe ________. mommy believes __________, Bampa and Nana (his great grandparents) believe _______, and Nai Nai (my mom) believes__________. and you can believe what you choose.

That way I can read him the books without saying 'this is the way it is', and teach him other views.

BTW I went to church on sundays from about 4th-8th grade, and mostly went to sunday school where we just hung out with friends and thats about it. I went to a christian based, international school overseas, we were taught 'world religion' as a class and learned about all different religions. I decided I didnt believe in god after reading the bible cover to cover in 8th grade (we also moved to england after 8th grad so my family no longer went to church)


2. The prayer he says now (singing) 'For food and drink and happy days we praise your name oh lord' (with hand motions... I let it go for a long time b/c he sang ' for food and happy drinking days' which was pretty funny! - also he often embelishes on his own 'thank you for our food... thank you for my friend... thank you for my boook... relating to whatever he did that day...)

The 'prayer' I think would be good instead "And so we thank the earth, for giving me the things that I need, the sun and the rain and the apple sead, and soooo we thank the eaaarth." (this one is also sung as 'and so we thank the lord' though with 'amen amen amen' at the end, I dont like that version)

3. The baptism thing... Most likley we are going to texas to visit the great grandparents and they WILL take us to church (not durring actual services, but just to the church itself to meet people), b/c they are VERY active in church, teach the sunday school, run the chior, and play the piano!

Ds has met them once, at his 1st bday party (he will be 3 in july), but talks to them on the phone a couple times a month (they never mention god stuff other than an occasional 'god bless you' when saying goodbye), They ARE 80 yrs old, BUT, in very good health and at this rate will be around another 10+ years!

In their church, babies are baptized basically at birth, and then are 'confirmed' at 11-12. I'm not sure what the baptism part actually represents, but from what I remember, only the god parents would say that they would teach him about god. I dont have a problem learning about god, as long as he also learns about other religions.

What is the difference between a dedication and a baptism of a baby?


And to answer somones question... if he does decide he believes in god at some point, I will not 'stop him' BUT I will continue to express why I DONT believe in god and what I do believe (which is no particular religion, but I do like some of the principles from various religions... many are the same concepts put in different words that apply to more than one faith)

I have aspergers and I tend to take things as black and white, so for me, it would either be A. 'I believe everything in the bible happened exactly as its wirtten, taking the whole thing literally (my grandma takes EVERYTHING in the bible literally, my grandpa believes in the basic story but with some things not literal...such as the world being made in 7 'days' etc).
OR
B. I believe the bible is an interesting story and thats that. And based on the proof I've been taught about dinosaurs, evolution, scientific explinations for some of the 'miricles' in the bible etc... that contridicts view A, so that is why I DONT believe in god and the bible as a true story.

But yeah likeI said, I WANT ds to learn about religion, ALL of them, and he is free to pick the one he wants to believe in, or a combination of different ones, of whatever he thinks is right for himself!