DS1 resistant to learning

[nugget's mommy]

I’m not really worried at the moment, but I guess I’m looking for any similar stories to see if we should start to think about doing some gentle steering, or if we should just go with his flow.

DS1 is 5.5 and in a pre-K daycare program (DH and I both WOH fulltime). He will be going to public kindergarten in the fall. He has always just been about play, play, play (including toys/superhero play, running around outside, sports type play, and video games), which I have never had a problem with – that’s what childhood is supposed to be about, right? He was the toddler, which when his daycare providers or I would start to read, he would get up and walk away. It’s so interesting because his little brother (2yo tomorrow) has been shoving books in our faces since he could grab them. Overall he is average to above average intelligence and gets the hang of things quickly when he wants to. His memory is amazing (his pre-K teacher has said this, too).

So he has recently gotten a little more interested in books and will sit for a story. His pre-K teacher says he is on track, but she has to coax stuff out of him (she is really cool and I’m certain that she doesn’t try to ram it down his throat, or make him feel bad, or compare him to other kids in front of him or anything like that). She recommended pointing out recurring words in a book and getting him familiar with how they look and seeing if he can identify them on other pages. I tried this last night and he threw the book across the room. I told him that is not OK to throw books, but didn’t press the learning thing (and don’t plan too – I want to keep reading fun). DH has been mentioning here and there (no pressure) about how when he learns to read in the next few years, that he will be able to read stories about his beloved superheroes and understand the words in his video games. He gets very angry at this and walks out of the room. We later try to talk with him to find out why he is gets so angry about it, even try to guess, but he says he “just doesn’t want to learn”. I think he finds it boring but I could be wrong (ie - he would rather be playing).

Whew, sorry for the length. So hopefully that is a sufficient snapshot. I guess my main question is, are there other kids out there that started out “resistant” to learning but came around and now love to learn, or do you think this will probably always be a struggle for him?

[lucysmom]

I wonder if he is having trouble reading and therefore finds the whole topic anxiety-inducing. Perhaps he has vision issues, or is dyslexic, or ... something else. But the hostile reaction suggests to me that it is more than that he finds it boring.

My dd is the same age. She is extremely bright but really cannot read. I've pretty much concluded it is due to vision issues, which I am urgently pursuing a resolution for.

She would LOVE to be able to read, but the whole topic upsets her because try as she might, she cannot make much headway. Perhaps your son has actually tried to read more than you know, but finds that he cannot break the code, and finds it really upsetting and worrying.

Just speculation that might not fit your kid at all, I realize.

[nugget's mommy]

Thanks lucysmom - your perspective is just what I needed and I really appreciate you taking the time to post. I don't think he has vision problems (had the normal test at the drs and was easily 20/20 - and he also plays sports well - like can hit a ball well) yet I will put that in the back of my mind just in case.

Now the rest wouldn't have even crossed my mind but there might be something to it. I don't know about dyslexia (will keep that in the back of my mind, too) but you triggered a memory of a conversation I had with my aunt years ago. Her son (my cousin) is gifted but had to take an untimed SAT - something about he had very good comprehension, but simply could not read the words fast. Something in his brain made it impossible to read at what everyone else would consider a normal speed. Wow - thank you so much! Obviously, I hope this isn't the case, but when he enters kindy next year, if he is still struggling, now I can be on high alert and try to get to the bottom of it, instead of just assuming he is bored.

[BellinghamCrunchie]

He is absolutely normal. He is doing what he is supposed to be doing.

You can trust the child to show you what they need to be learning.

When you say he doesn't like to learn, I think what you really mean is that he doesn't like academic, sitting-type activities. But he is learning gobs. Play is the best way to learn, and he's doing tons of that, it sounds like.

Western culture does tend to start academic-type learning at an earlier and earlier age, to compensate for poor academic performance in the public schools when compared to other nations. Norway, for example, doesn't start academics until age 8 - the younger years are all about play and socialization in the schools. Even though there is no evidence that starting academics in the preschool years increases academic success in the later years, the practice continues. Its a little of "if something doesn't work, try it harder." In the 70s children started on reading in the first or second grade; now they start on it in preschool, even though what limited evidence for the success of this method indicates that if anything, it makes things worse.

I'm sorry his preschool teacher seems to be placing a great deal of emphasis on sitting through a book being read or doing other academic type activities instead of working on playing cooperatively with other children or allowing him to follow his natural interests. There are many play-based preschools out there; maybe another one would be a better match?

[nugget's mommy]

Thanks for the reassurance BellinghamCrunchie . Everything you said is my instinct, from my experiences growing up and things I have read here and there on MDC.

I guess what prompted me to post are DS's quite negative reactions and little birds chirping in my ear. DH is a little more mainstream than I, and is a little worried, especially since he pretty much taught himself to read when he was still 4. I tell him, he is not you, and we have agreed to not pressure DS about it. When we sat down and talked with his teacher (just about him in general - not because of this issue), I mentioned that I was more interested in DS playing because he has plenty of time to learn and she was totally on board with that. She just mentioned, that in her experience, it gives them a confidence boost once they start reading, and DH totally agreed with her from his experience (I don't get the feeling she was trying to pressure us, or DS, just sharing what she sees). DS loves her and his pre-K, but you are right, he doesn't love the sit down and learn aspect of it. I don't know how mainstream or not this is, but they have these "centers" and they velcro their name to the center they want to be in. It seems, for the most part, they get to choose as long as there is enough space at a certain center, and he is usually at a more play based center except for when she coaxes him to a reading, writing, or math one (she says he seems to enjoy and does well at the math center, btw). I don't know exactly what Montessouri is (I think it's more play based?) but I see an awful lot of literature floating around his daycare center that says Montessouri this and Montessouri that, so I think they try to be like that, just a little more mainstream.

Everyone involved just wants what's best for him (so we are all coming from a place of love), but sometimes that's hard to navigate what exactly that is. It's clear to me, that DS probably knows what that is, with some gentle guidance from us. I guess my main worry is that since we are sending him to public school, we might have to find a balance. Obviously if public school is a terrible fit for him, we would look into other options. I am grateful for lucysmom's post, too, just in case there ends up being more to it (like in my cousin's case).

[leighi123]

Kids that age learn best through play. So by playing all day he IS learning.

[lucysmom]

Just wanted to chime in again to underscore that the only concerning thing -- and I imagine the source of the little birds chirping in your ear, which I so relate to -- is your son's active hostility toward reading.

When my DD was an older 3, I thought she was ready to read. And she didn't. And I was the tiniest bit worried because it seemed ... just not in line with what else she was doing. (I read when I was about 3, but if she had not seemed completely ready to jump into reading herself, I would not have been concerned at this juncture. She did seem ready.)

Then she was 4, and not reading. And I got a little more worried. And I internalized all the advice about not to pressure her (definitely correct no matter what is going on), and waited. But I had little birds chirping in my ear.

Now she is 5, and not reading. And I just know, like I pretty much have all along, that there is something more to this than lack of readiness or lack of interest. And finally, I am getting confirmation that there is a reason that we need to deal with (in our case, vision). I'm glad to figure that out now, not when she is 7 or 8 and has had a couple of years of negative feedback about her performance in school and feels bad about her own abilities.

So -- sure, it may be that in a few months everything clicks and he loves to read and it turns out it was just a readiness issue. I hope so, that would be great! But I do want to affirm listening to the little birds. When things don't add up, and your parental warning bells start going off, in my experience, there is often a reason. It's awfully hard for us on this board to know, but if you do actually have a sense, I would urge you to trust it.

xxoo

[lucysmom]

Just wanted to chime in again to underscore that the only concerning thing -- and I imagine the source of the little birds chirping in your ear, which I so relate to -- is your son's active hostility toward reading.

When my DD was an older 3, I thought she was ready to read. And she didn't. And I was the tiniest bit worried because it seemed ... just not in line with what else she was doing. (To be clear, I read at that age, but if she had not seemed right on the brink of reading on her own, I would neither have pushed it nor have been concerned.)

Then she was 4, and not reading. And I got a little more worried. And I internalized all the advice about not to pressure her (definitely correct no matter what is going on), and waited. But I had little birds chirping in my ear.

Now she is 5, and not reading. And I just know, like I pretty much have all along, that there is something more to this than lack of readiness or lack of interest. And finally, I am getting confirmation that there is a reason that we need to deal with (in our case, vision). I'm glad to figure that out now, not when she is 7 or 8 and has had a couple of years of negative feedback about her performance in school and feels bad about her own abilities.

So -- sure, it may be that in a few months everything clicks and he loves to read and it turns out it was just a readiness issue. I hope so, that would be great! And there are fascinating studies (which wonderful people on this board posted when I was asking "why can't my kid read?") about how, left to their own devices, kids of normal intelligence basically teach themselves to read at ages between 4-11, and when they start has little bearing on how well they end up reading or how much they end up liking it.

But I do want to affirm listening to the little birds. When things don't add up, and your parental warning bells start going off, in my experience, there is often a reason. It's awfully hard for us on this board to know, but if you do actually have a sense that something is not right, there's a good chance you are right.

What could it be? Dyslexia; eye tracking or teaming or convergence (how the eyes work together); processing speed issues; something else with which I am less familiar. If this goes on for a while, you might consider having him evaluated by a developmental neuropsychologist, who should have tools to suggest whether there is an explanation other than disinterest.

xxoo

[romacox]

This is a typical story for 38% of the population

I am a tutor, and often given children very much like DS1. 38% of the population have similar stories. Here is an article that explains it in a nut shell: Understanding Different Personality Types For Teachers, Parents, Tutors, and Curriculum Designers

I also recommend the Book "Please Understand Me II" by David Kiersey

Originally Posted by nugget's mommy

I’m not really worried at the moment, but I guess I’m looking for any similar stories to see if we should start to think about doing some gentle steering, or if we should just go with his flow.

DS1 is 5.5 and in a pre-K daycare program (DH and I both WOH fulltime). He will be going to public kindergarten in the fall. He has always just been about play, play, play (including toys/superhero play, running around outside, sports type play, and video games), which I have never had a problem with – that’s what childhood is supposed to be about, right? He was the toddler, which when his daycare providers or I would start to read, he would get up and walk away. It’s so interesting because his little brother (2yo tomorrow) has been shoving books in our faces since he could grab them. Overall he is average to above average intelligence and gets the hang of things quickly when he wants to. His memory is amazing (his pre-K teacher has said this, too).

So he has recently gotten a little more interested in books and will sit for a story. His pre-K teacher says he is on track, but she has to coax stuff out of him (she is really cool and I’m certain that she doesn’t try to ram it down his throat, or make him feel bad, or compare him to other kids in front of him or anything like that). She recommended pointing out recurring words in a book and getting him familiar with how they look and seeing if he can identify them on other pages. I tried this last night and he threw the book across the room. I told him that is not OK to throw books, but didn’t press the learning thing (and don’t plan too – I want to keep reading fun). DH has been mentioning here and there (no pressure) about how when he learns to read in the next few years, that he will be able to read stories about his beloved superheroes and understand the words in his video games. He gets very angry at this and walks out of the room. We later try to talk with him to find out why he is gets so angry about it, even try to guess, but he says he “just doesn’t want to learn”. I think he finds it boring but I could be wrong (ie - he would rather be playing).

Whew, sorry for the length. So hopefully that is a sufficient snapshot. I guess my main question is, are there other kids out there that started out “resistant” to learning but came around and now love to learn, or do you think this will probably always be a struggle for him?

[MJB]

My oldest son did NOT want to read at 4 or 5. We started trying to teach him at 5.5 (homeschooled for K) but he didn't start reading *at all* until 6 and he was pretty hostile towards reading until sometime this year in 1st grade. He's 7 now, reading on grade level and enjoying it.
My littler son picked up reading from when I was futilely trying to teach his brother, took off with it and loved it from the start so I don't think it was my teaching style. Some kids just are not ready to read at 5 and it doesn't tell you anything about how they'll be doing in a year or two.

[pinky]

I am surprised at how often, even here on MDC, kids who are not reading at 5 are considered "behind." It boggles the mind. Where did we get the idea that it's normal or desirable for kids to be reading even before they are in kindergarten? My dd is 5.5 and just starting to read, and I consider her ahead of the curve, definitely ahead of most of her peers. To me, worrying about a child who is not reading at 5 is like worrying about a child who is not walking at 9 months.

While it may be true that the ability to read increases a child's confidence, I would think that being pushed to read when not ready, and then struggling, could be crushing for a child's confidence.

[4evermom]

My ds would have reacted the same way (with hostility) to being "encouraged" to practice. Dh learned to read at 3. I learned at 6 1/2. Ds didn't really start reading phrases until 7 1/2. He's a visual spatial learner (as am I but dh is not). Typically, VS learners learn to read later. They don't learn things through a lot of repetition and building up of skills. They just take longer to absorb the whole concept and then start doing it. It's perfectly fine and normal just not how schools are set up to teach.

Another aspect is some kids tend to be perfectionists. They don't want to try something until they feel pretty confident that they can do it. Reading to a child without quizzing him lets him follow along with his eyes and see if he knows the words in a no pressure way. I only read to ds if he wanted me to and I tried hard to find books he would really enjoy. He was selective about books. He'd rather not be read to than have a book he wasn't very interested in read to him.

I remember thinking it was progress when ds started saying "when I can read" instead of having the attitude that it was something only grown ups did. Not sure exactly how old he was... probably 5ish.

Anyway, ds learned to read with no instruction. He gradually built up a larger and larger vocabulary of sight words by playing computer games (and not the educational ones, lol). It was nice that he wasn't in school so he didn't feel pressured about it.

[Polliwog]

Originally Posted by pinky

I am surprised at how often, even here on MDC, kids who are not reading at 5 are considered "behind." It boggles the mind. Where did we get the idea that it's normal or desirable for kids to be reading even before they are in kindergarten? My dd is 5.5 and just starting to read, and I consider her ahead of the curve, definitely ahead of most of her peers. To me, worrying about a child who is not reading at 5 is like worrying about a child who is not walking at 9 months.

While it may be true that the ability to read increases a child's confidence, I would think that being pushed to read when not ready, and then struggling, could be crushing for a child's confidence.

I agree. And a developmentally appropriate preschool program shouldn't be pushing it. He's not ready to be recognizing sight words.

[bandgeek]

My 5 year old acts the same way and he can actually read some already. He just doesn't want to and acts like I'm torturing him if I even try to get him to read a few words out of one whole book. I backed off. He's just not ready. And reading is like our relaxing/slow down time together. So I don't think he wants to put work into it.

Sometimes I can get him to practice other skills through play, like counting and adding or whatever. But I still can't push it or he'll get mad and run away from me screaming that he "doesn't want to learn".